The Sleaze Thing

[Tiggerbabe]

Ok - Seeing as Wendy is behaving herself I'll start it off -

What's a girl to do with a bloke who's too sleazy? Or a guy, obiously, if the girl's behaving badly.

There was one gentleman at the Chocolate party on Saturday whom I found particularly sleazy and yet each time he asked me to dance - I accepted. He asked on four separate occassions and each time asked if I would like to stay up for another dance - it was only after dance no 7 that I declined and said I really needed to go and have a rest and a drink - which then meant I couldn't dance for a while with anyone else

Every time we danced he did a basket type move but had me right in front of him - and I know he did this with other girls too as we spoke about it afterwards.

I know Lorna had taught a ripple type move in the class but several men used that move on Saturday night and it wasn't sleazy at all - it was fun

So - THE BIG QUESTION should I have refused him and told him why - or do what I did do and next time I see him approaching the table hurridly need to change my top, shoes, go to the loo etc etc etc

I like dancing blues and as Sandy said in another post somewhere - there are some wonderfully sexy moves that can be done without being sleazy at all, if the mood and the music are right. Maybe it's just a chemistry thing :sorry

[TheTramp]

Okie. I know I'm not a girl, and in most cases it is the girls who have this to worry about, rather than the guys (although, I do have this really nasty story that I'm not posting on here). But this is the advice I always offer.....

If you really do not like dancing with a guy. For whatever reason. Then DON'T. Say no. You're not turning them down just on a whim, you're turning them down for a good reason. After all, you're paying your money to enjoy yourself!!

The guy who is unwantedly sleazy with you Sheena, is also quite probably doing the same to every other girl in the room. And while it won't affect you that badly, he then does it to the girl who is at the dance for her first time. And she doesn't come back, just because of him.

Not only would I suggest that you say no, I would also suggest that you talk to some of the other ladies, and if it's not just you, but the other ladies feel the same way, then you should talk to the person running the night.

It might just be that he doesn't realise that just because one person (who you usually know and trust) can do that move with you, that he doesn't have the right to then do it too (this applies to drops and lifts too), and a quiet word (which should be done by the person running the night) will save all the hassles. Or he might just be nastily sleazy, in which case the organiser needs to be made aware so that he can be asked to leave. There really isn't room for that sort of thing at dances.

Steve

[Dance Demon]

Spot on Steve....
my good lady often tells me about guys who are just a bit too sleazy...and about conversations she has had with other ladies about such guys. IMHO there is a difference between cool & sleazy, but unfortunately there are some guys who think they are one and the same thing.
Personally, I find it hard to understand why guys would want to be this way. Even if they are attracted to a specific lady, it is more likely to put them off if they start giving it all the suggestive stuff. Different if it is someone that you know really well, and is happy to join in in a jokey sort of way.
So Sheena,.....be polite but firm....and if they can't accept that, and get all stroppy, a word with the organiser is the next step

[Graham W]

...agree about the Blues not being sleaze..Over & Out

[Wendy]

Thanks Sheena for bringing this up.... it's a tricky one... but have been thinking for ages that it needs to be discussed....

I know the guy you mean. And sadly it took me a lot more than 4 or 5 dances to feel uncomfortable. It's only quite recently that I've just not felt quite right doing certain moves with him and since then have avoided him at classes. On Saturday, I was in such a good mood (I was on fire !) I asked him to dance. I was almost repulsed and actually pulled away from him at one point. I should have known better !!!

I'm still working on what is sleaze and when is a guy (or a girl)sleazy... will get back to you...

Wx

PS Didn't someone do a report/PhD or something about dance and discuss this ???

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by TheTramp

And while it won't affect you that badly, he then does it to the girl who is at the dance for her first time. And she doesn't come back, just because of him.

Steve

Thanks Steve and DD for your sound advice. I agree with the above - because I know it doesn't happen often - in my 4 years of dancing this is really only the second time it's been a recurring nightmare - but I hadn't thought about them putting off someone new.

Funny too, Wendy, that you know who I'm talking about - I've been to many other Glasgow parties and never been aware of this man - will be next time though

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Sheena

I like dancing blues and as Sandy said in another post somewhere - there are some wonderfully sexy moves that can be done without being sleazy at all, if the mood and the music are right. Maybe it's just a chemistry thing :sorry

I think the music has a lot to do with it !!!! I know I feel very different dancing to a blues track than I do to Kylie... and I'm sure I dance differently... and I would dance differently even if I was dancing by myself...

One of the things I've noticed about "Sleazeman" is that he dances the same moves in the same way, looks at you in the same way to every single track. Some moves don't work to Kylie ....


I don't think it is just a chemistry thing*..... for me it's a trust thing..... a balance thing... a matching thing....

Wx

* This has only happened to me with 2/3 guys in 2 years. The first time was someone who did very close combs with me when I was a beginner and I pushed him away at one point cos I felt violated (maybe that's a bit strong... but I certainly felt he was invading my space !). The second was someone who kept giving me commands... sit now... bend now.... etc etc.... he wasn't exactly sleazy but I felt as if I was being totally dominated. And the third is "Sleazeman".

[TheTramp]

Sadly, I think it's a little more prevalent down here.

But thankfully not much more. I think that most people come to dance, just the odd few who come for something else....

Steve

[Divissima]

If you really do not like dancing with a guy. For whatever reason. Then DON'T.

I think this is the right approach. It isn't always easy to say no without appearing rude, and as nice girls we generally hate to be rude or unkind, but the fact of the matter is, they take advantage of our good natures by dancing in an unacceptable way. They probably count on the fact that, as nice girls, we won't complain or make a scene and sometimes will accept a follow-on dance so they can over-step the mark all over again.

You're not turning them down just on a whim, you're turning them down for a good reason. After all, you're paying your money to enjoy yourself!

There are some men I will avoid through whatever means - and if they still manage to ask me to dance, I'll say no. Sometimes I'm more courageous than others and just say no - and other times, I make up an excuse (feeble or otherwise). The last time I did this, the man in question looked most ticked off - but he got the idea and hasn't been near me since.

Now it isn't strictly nice girl behaviour, but it means your evening out isn't blemished by the bottom-dwellers.....

[horsey_dude]

Originally posted by TheTramp

If you really do not like dancing with a guy. For whatever reason. Then DON'T. Say no. You're not turning them down just on a whim, you're turning them down for a good reason. After all, you're paying your money to enjoy yourself!!


Steve

I agree, most people have a pretty good idea of what is appropriate and what isn't, if everyone turns him down with a look of disgust then he will surely get the message eventually. This is a really sore point with me because back home we had our own "mr sleaze" and many women stopped coming class and parties because of him. If it was my business I would have given him warning about it and then banned him.

[horsey_dude]

I went to the hammersmith dance on Saturday and I noticed that very few (well virtually no one) was doing any dips, leans or close moves. There were very skillful dancers but they were just not doing those things. If a song like "fever" (the slow, sexy one comes on) and if I am dancing with someone who is obviously a very experienced dancer then that is how I will dance it. The same goes for boppy, bouncey songs, or fast frantic songs etc. Now I wonder if anyone I danced with (and I was being very restrained) went home thinking "oh my god, what was that sleazy guy thinking?". I think it makes it look so much better if the couple dancing are looking at each other in a flirty, cheeky, serious or whatever way then it make it so much better. Its just dancing! It doesn't mean anything else. If you are going to do a seducer at some dramatic point in the music then bringing the woman in, looking her right in the eye before "seducing" her takes something that could be dull and mechanical and makes it much more interesting.

Any women who dances with me, please feel free to say "look, you are being far too sleazy" and I will adjust me dancing.

[Wendy]

Originally posted by Divissima
They probably count on the fact that, as nice girls, we won't complain or make a scene and sometimes will accept a follow-on dance so they can over-step the mark all over again.

So agree with you on this !! And funnily enough the guy Sheena and I were talking about does ask for several dances in a row ... he must think he's onto a goodun !!!

Being a taxi dancer also makes it more difficult not to be a nice girl. I try to be friendly and welcoming to every newcomer... but sometimes I wonder if this is wise... if they are giving me the creeps do I really want them to come back ???? And I am really doing CEROC as a whole a favour ????

I'd be interested to hear what Franck has to say about this....

Wxx

[Wendy]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
If a song like "fever" (the slow, sexy one comes on) and if I am dancing with someone who is obviously a very experienced dancer then that is how I will dance it. Now I wonder if anyone I danced with (and I was being very restrained) went home thinking "oh my god, what was that sleazy guy thinking?". I think it makes it look so much better if the couple dancing are looking at each other in a flirty, cheeky, serious or whatever way then it make it so much better. Its just dancing!..Any women who dances with me, please feel free to say "look, you are being far too sleazy" and I will adjust me dancing.

This is also true for me. I danced to a track the other night which I love (a really yummy bluesy one) with this guy who (I discovered later ) "never got to dance to records like that "...... I think he might've been shocked and pleased at the same time.... He might have gone away thinking "what an old slapper" for all I know !!! And thinking about it I probably shouldn't have danced with him as I didn't know him very well...

The other problem about dancing in a sexy/flirty/cheeky way to a particular track is that others see you doing this and assume that you always dance like that when in fact it's a combination of the music and the person you are dancing with. (That's why I have a BTC team and sounds like you'd be in it Horsey Dude )

Wxxx

[Franck]

Originally posted by Wendy
I'd be interested to hear what Franck has to say about this....

Happy to oblige Wendy.

I agree with everything that has been said, if a guy is always dancing in an uncomfortable / sleazy way, you do not have to say yes when he asks for a dance. We all want to be nice and always say yes, but as the Tramp says, you are not turning anyone away on a whim...

The constructive thing would be to tell them that their dancing is sleazy (though uncomfortable might be a better word), as I am sure they are aware they are dancing too close, but maybe not of how unpleasant it is for their partners, especially with all this talk of BTC / blues etc...
This unfortunately is very hard to do, so maybe the best thing is to have a word with the teacher on the night, asking them to bring up 'personal space' and 'sleaze' in the class as a key point, emphasizing the inapropriateness of it.

If that message does not get across and multiple refusals do not get the message across then a more direct approach would be required... Let me know next time we're in Glasgow...

Franck.

[Wendy]

Thanks, Franck.

Wxx

[Divissima]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by horsey_dude
I went to the hammersmith dance on Saturday and I noticed that very few (well virtually no one) was doing any dips, leans or close moves.[/Q]

We don't get taught so many dips or leans over here - I think we had a chat about this on the night - it took me ages to feel happy doing them.

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Now I wonder if anyone I danced with (and I was being very restrained) went home thinking "oh my god, what was that sleazy guy thinking?". I think it makes it look so much better if the couple dancing are looking at each other in a flirty, cheeky, serious or whatever way then it make it so much better. Its just dancing! It doesn't mean anything else.

Don't worry - I doubt anyone will have taken it the wrong way. A few close moves and some flirty glances are a long way removed from unnecessary ... erm, how to say this... rubbing (eeewwwwwww!) and clamping a lady waaaay to close for waaaaay to long with no hope of escape till the end of the music

Originally posted by horsey_dude
Any women who dances with me, please feel free to say "look, you are being far too sleazy" and I will adjust me dancing.

Nooooo - Horsey Dude, you were awesome
Please come back and dance with me some more....

[newby]

Steve suggested the sleaze thing might put first timers off. I've been to 4 beginners classes and was starting to think I must be too old for this! While the friend I go to classes with agrees that a couple of guys get closer than she would like she seems able to shrug it (or them!) off. I do a quick head count to see who am partnering next - either a sigh of relief or the shivers. I know we're meant to look at each other as we dance and just have some fun but I wouldn't want to give certain guys the wrong idea - like I'm enjoying this!?! Fortunately we don't dance with any one partner for too long but as I get more comfortable with my surroundings and more familiar with faces and the basic steps, I am also becoming a little more confident in myself and a bit less tolerant with the pelvic thrusts - creeps beware!

[Stubob]

This happened at a LeRoc venue I used to attend over in Fife about 2-3 years ago. Several complaints reached the venue manager about the way a certain individual was dancing with the ladies, the gentleman in question was subsequently asked to leave and not to return.

IMHO this is the only way to deal with that sort of behaviour.

Stubob

[horsey_dude]

There is a woman who I sometimes dance with in New Zealand who I have had to edit out certain combinations of moves with. We do "The Manhatten" two ways. 1. Like a ball room or latin dance where you have a big gap and you maintain a frame to lead the move and 2. there is no gap and the man leads with his hip and his leg is between the womans legs. This one woman had somehow learned it where she would basically (and there is no subtle way to put this) hump your leg. I assume she was used to coming up from a layback where you sit on the mans leg and then going into a Manhatten and not straightening her legs... I couldn't bring myself to say anything so I just stay away fromthose moves. The other thing the I eventually noticed (stop reading now anyone who is easily shocked or offended) was that every time she danced with me her nipples would stick out and then go down when she got to the next person.... I am not sure what the male equivalent of this would be..??

[Gadget]

Just curious as to where the 'sexy' ends and the 'sleasy' begins?

It's easy to define when it goes beyond the slease into crude or rude; but isn't it dependant on the mood of the song and the dance-floor chemistry what is sleasy and what is not?
Eg. I would do some closer (sexy?) moves with some dancers, but never dream of doing them with others: Is the 'slease' tollerance for some people is higher than others? Does minor slease just equate to giving someone the creeps?

I agree that crude/rude dancers should be turned down flat - but should the same blanket refusal cover those that you just don't feel comfortable dancing with?