Some Females Who Taxi As Men Tough To Lead

[onkar]

Slightly contraversial view here, but I would appreciate comments from people who are more experienced.

I have found that some (not all) ladies who I have danced with and who were a pleasure to dance with, quite often become harder (tougher) to lead and some how loose some of their feminine grace after they start Taxi duty (specifically when they Taxi alot as the male).

Is this something others have noticed or do I simply need to be firmer with these ladies!

Onkar

[LMC]

The real issue, IMO, is not really gender specific. To improve your own dancing, you need to be dancing with people who are as good as or better than you.

Most female taxis only ever lead beginners in the class and in freestyle and are often fairly beginner leads themselves - and as we don't lead that many dances in freestyle it takes us longer to improve! It's rude and not entirely fair to talk about "hauling around" beginners, but that is sometimes what it feels like - sorry, but it does In those cases, I know that my style goes completely out of the window as I'm focussing on trying to stay on time and not hurt the follower whilst thinking of the next move - and smiling.

Ladies (and I will hold up Sparkles, MsFab, Tessalicious and Tiggerbabe here as fabulous examples, I know there's others!) who frequently lead experienced/good followers in freestyle don't lose any of their own "grace" when they are following AFAICT from watching.

I know that my first dance as a follower after leading in the beginner's class is not going to be me at my best

Getting used to switching "heads" is tricky - plenty of stealing the lead dances with other ladies who lead has helped me speed up my role reversal abilities (and it's wicked good fun too )

[robd]

Great taxi-recruiting technique there, Onkar!

In my limited experience thinking back to when Katherine was a taxi (indeed, back when she would go dancing more than twice a month ), I used to feel that her arms were heavier when she followed than they were at freestyles or nights when she was not taxiing. Don't know how much leading she did as a taxi though.

[Yliander]

Slightly contraversial view here, but I would appreciate comments from people who are more experienced.

I have found that some (not all) ladies who I have danced with and who were a pleasure to dance with, quite often become harder (tougher) to lead and some how loose some of their feminine grace after they start Taxi duty (specifically when they Taxi alot as the male).

Is this something others have noticed or do I simply need to be firmer with these ladies!

Onkar

I know that the first dance I used to have after teaching - I would be rather difficult as it took me a dance to click back into proper following - I used to inflict that first dance after teaching on my dance partner or a very good friend

I think it is important that taxis ensure that when they aren't on duty dance with who they want to dance with and not with who they think they should dance with or their own dancing can suffer

[onkar]

Great taxi-recruiting technique there, Onkar!

In my limited experience thinking back to when Katherine was a taxi (indeed, back when she would go dancing more than twice a month ), I used to feel that her arms were heavier when she followed than they were at freestyles or nights when she was not taxiing. Don't know how much leading she did as a taxi though.

Rob

Just making an observation. I would much rather have more men Taxi's, but most are not interested, and the ladies tend to be more willing to help and so invariably end up leading as well. I am mindful that some do find that their dancing suffers. One lady I know who Taxi'd at Biggleswade felt her dancing was knocked back by several months after trying to take on a mans role, having now stopped she feels her dancing is getting back on form.

From the few experiences I have had of following I have nothing but pure admiration for ladies who can lead & follow and switch between the two effortlessly.



Onkar

P.S. Rob can I interest you in becoming a Taxi at Cambridge? You get a great T-Shirt!

[LMC]

I think it is important that taxis ensure that when they aren't on duty dance with who they want to dance with and not with who they think they should dance with or their own dancing can suffer

Stevenage teacher (also a CTA trainer) says the same thing.

Stalking the best dancers without guilt - excellent incentive for taxi-ing

[MartinHarper]

I've seen a few women who lead purely to be "helpful" - whether balancing the numbers in a class, or female taxis who lead beginner women, or whatever. I don't think that works so well. Their leading doesn't progress much, and gets this anaemic vibe to it. It wouldn't surprise me if that fed back into their following too.

Without wishing to get too mystic about it, I feel like sooner or later the motivation to lead has to come from inside, not outside. It's great to start to be helpful, or to meet women, or whatever external reason there may be. I just don't think you can go on like that forever. Eventually, every leader needs to find the part of his or her soul that revels in the act of leading, and start enjoying leading for its own sake.

If you only lead beginners, and you lead mostly in classes, I think it's going to be very difficult to find that piece of your soul. It's just the same thing we say to beginner men: you must dance in freestyle, and you must dance with those better than you. If you're having regular doses of soul-less dancing, that can't be good for your overall dancing, or particularly helpful.

[tsh]

Maybe the reason that there are fewer men wanting to taxi is that to start with, it is fairly simple to learn to follow simple moves and the women reach the point where there is not much more for them to learn in the classes. For the men who are learning, there is much more to learn in the first few months - so they are reluctant to give up the opportunity to take part in the 2nd class. By the time they are likely to consider taxiing, presumably there are fewer men still coming back anyway.

Sean

[LMC]

Big to what MartinH said.

I'm actually starting to enjoy leading now - and have had a few compliments as well - which encourages me to believe that some women might actually enjoy dancing with me leading (thanks to lots of lovely forumite ladies who have put up with me!). Many female taxis that I talk to don't actually enjoy leading, they just do it because they have to.

As a side point - there are far fewer men that follow than ladies that lead (except in Scotland maybe, but we all know they're a bit strange up there ). And many men are fairly terrible followers, for probably the same reason as most women don't progress beyond beginner leading: it's not their primary role and they don't do enough of it to improve quickly.

It's all down to motivation, as MH said - if you really *want* to learn the other role and are not doing so just because you have to, then I truly believe that leading when you normally follow, and vice versa can help to improve your dancing in the longer term. I've recently picked up a connection "fault" that I need to work on. The interesting thing was that I was aware of the fault in my leading, but couldn't "pin down" what was wrong with my following until someone who's danced with me recently told me (thank you again ). It's the same thing that I need to work on in both leading and following.

I certainly value the insights that leading has given me - not least to beginner guys for sticking with it when it's all they can do and don't have the opportunity (yet) to follow instead.

[Tessalicious]

Agree with most of what LMC and MH (in particular) have said, and I have to say that this is one of the biggest reasons that I am glad I didn't start to taxi until I had been dancing for a year, and leading for about 9 months. My lead wasn't just something I did with beginners, I had been doing it in intermediate classes too, as well as plenty of freestyling, so I gave myself the chance to feel leading in all situations. And yes, Martin, I do lead for the sake of leading, because I enjoy it, because I like to dance with my female friends as well as my male ones, and because it has become part of my soul.

One thing I'd like to pick up on in the original post, which has been bugging me about this thread from the start, is this:

Females Who Taxi As Men

Females, or ladies as I think we usually prefer to be called, do not dance, taxi, lead or anything else, as men (except maybe in the privacy of their own homes). Lady leads are just that - lady leads, still ladies, just leaders. It's the misnomer of being labelled "the man" rather than "the lead" in classes and by ladies we dance with that makes unconfident lady leads try to dance like men, because they think that is what they are required to do - and as a result, their following becomes more like that of a male follower too. So, call us what we are, and maybe your problem will be solved.

[LMC]

I am (still) a lay-dee

EXCELLENT point.

There is often an unspoken "expectation" from followers that we will be dancing like men, because we are leading. My style is definitely different when I'm leading - but hopefully no less feminine (it certainly disconcerts some women, I shall have to discourage them from dancing with Tessalicious, 'cos she'd shock them even more )

EDIT: Perhaps teachers could be a bit less sexist if there are women leading in class and talk about "leaders" and "followers" rather than men and ladies. I often make a joke to my current partner about some remark the teacher has made, starting with "Guys..." - especially if it relates to hip-wiggling and the macho quality thereof - but it does grate after a while.

[Cruella]

Lady leads are just that - lady leads, still ladies, just leaders. It's the misnomer of being labelled "the man" rather than "the lead" in classes and by ladies we dance with that makes unconfident lady leads try to dance like men, because they think that is what they are required to do - and as a result, their following becomes more like that of a male follower too. So, call us what we are, and maybe your problem will be solved.

Funnily enough most of the lady leads i know have a far lighter but more precise lead than men of the same experience. I can't decide if it's because they understand more what a lady likes or just that their femininity makes them naturally gentle.

[Allez-Cat]

Onkar, in my experience it's not just the ladies who taxi as men, but some who taxi as either 'lead' or 'follow' (let's just get the nomenclature right).

I have found 'lead' ladies getting very heavy-armed and assertive, but 'follow' ladies showing similar symptoms - probably because they're having to "back-lead" very assertively to coax a beginner firmly through a routine.

Rest assured that the tendency does wear off, but sometimes a gentle smile and a casual remark about an overdose of taxiing does the trick.

I'm sure Onkar means no disrespect to the lady taxis, any more than I do.

[mrs_warwick]

There is often an unspoken "expectation" from followers that we will be dancing like men, because we are leading. My style is definitely different when I'm leading - but hopefully no less feminine

I am very much a beginner lead, and I mostly dance with beginners in freestyle. A lot of the beginner women that I dance with have commented on how much better my lead is than that of the men. Now I don't know which men they are comparing me to, but I have found myself when being led by a woman that the contact and the lead is a lot more consistent and clearer than a lot of the men.
Maybe it's because as followers we have experienced poor leads and try not to repeat the faults.

I was wondering if LMC and Tessa had received similar comments?

[Tessalicious]

My style is definitely different when I'm leading - but hopefully no less feminine (it certainly disconcerts some women, I shall have to discourage them from dancing with Tessalicious, 'cos she'd shock them even more )

Thanks doll, but credit where credit's due. I had a good example to follow, in the shape of the lovely Miss Sparkles, who never stops being utterly feminine whoever she's dancing with.

Perhaps teachers could be a bit less sexist if there are women leading in class and talk about "leaders" and "followers" rather than men and ladies.

True, and that was kinda part of my point above, but this is a controversial aspect of the teach that nevertheless has its reasons - because they don't generally encourage first time ladies to lead, or guys to follow (ever in classes) because it's too weird for everyone else. And also because, no matter how many times the teacher says "This is a male-led dance", saying "Leaders do X" rather than "Guys do X" would not necessarily reach everyone it needed to - whereas girls that lead know that they are in the same role as most of the guys in the room.

Anyway, I digress.

In response to the difficulty of leading ladies that are trying to dance like men, the best way is to be nice to them. In the taxi situation, these ladies probably don't do many classes as followers anymore, and may have forgotten some of their basic principles like following the hand and keeping relaxed. All you should need to do is mention to them that they can relax, you're leading this one, and maybe not to fight back so hard. But say it kindly, and with a smile - the last thing you want to do is to make all your girl taxis quit because they think they can't dance anymore.

A lot of the beginner women that I dance with have commented on how much better my lead is than that of the men...I was wondering if LMC and Tessa had received similar comments?

To be honest, and not trying to rain on your parade at all, but yes, all the time. There is a very good reason for that though - it's called multi-tasking. That and your point about having experienced bad leads, although you'd be surprised how hard it is, until you really know what you're doing, to replicate a specific type of poor lead or good lead on demand. That's because it feels so different from each end, that you can never be sure it's what you intended.

[LMC]

I was wondering if LMC and Tessa had received similar comments?

Yep - and I know Tessalicious has, 'cos a) I've told her and b) she's been leading WAY longer than I have.

I think you have the right 'reason' too. Now I've started intermediate classes as a lead one of the first things I do after the class is get one of the better male leads to lead the class on me, so I can get an idea of how "nice" each move is for the follower. I've decided ONLY to remember the moves that I like as a follower, and not to try to remember too many of 'em. I even "binned" a very easy/smooth to lead "lady duck" move, 'cos I loathe moves where I have to duck as a follower and it would have felt hypocritical to add it into my leading repertoire. I know (i.e. have actually remembered and use in freestyle), ooooh, a whole 2.5 intermediate moves from I dunno how many classes - in the interests of being consistent (having told countless men that quality is more important than quantity ) I don't even try to remember them unless I really like 'em :shrug:

[Almost an Angel]

You asked for opinions so here's mine.

these ladies probably don't do many classes as followers anymore, and may have forgotten some of their basic principles like following the hand and keeping relaxed.

The above - Thanks Tess - is true - when you're Taxi-ing you have to make the time to expand your own dancing, which means spending time normally away from the venue you Taxi at - even when you're not taxi-ing my experience is that people will always ask you, that may take time that they just do not have. (I'm not saying you can't at the venue but my experience is it has been easier for me away from the venue)

To be honest I found my dancing did suffer a little for a few months while I consolidated the difference between lead and follow into my brain. But I wanted to learn how to lead properly - not just in the class putting 4 moves together but so I could freestyle a whole tracks. I suppose it depends upon the motivation. I can now do either which can be pretty useful when there's an inbalance of men!

With other ladies who have switched to leading - I have found that they've been through a similar thing - the dancing suffers for a while - and the good news is they all come out the other end to where their dancing improves. Funnily enough once I'd been through the pain once with MJ when I switched to WCS leading my following didn't really suffer - go figure.

Funnily enough most of the lady leads i know have a far lighter but more precise lead than men of the same experience. I can't decide if it's because they understand more what a lady likes or just that their femininity makes them naturally gentle.

I agree, I get complimented upon my lead by ladies who I haven't danced with before - I think it's a combination of the above, we know what feels good and as we're girlies we're not into this macho dragging the ladies through the moves regardless of their ability! (we're sure you wouldn't do this guys -would you.....?)

There is often an unspoken "expectation" from followers that we will be dancing like men, because we are leading. My style is definitely different when I'm leading - but hopefully no less feminine (it certainly disconcerts some women, I shall have to discourage them from dancing with Tessalicious, 'cos she'd shock them even more)

I certainly get this expectation a lot - although most followers are pleasantly surprised in freestyle - I have a lot of problems with ladies in classes - I'm sure they're trying to help by backleading but I'm always saying 'I'm leading' or having them start the move when I haven't led anything - I know i'm probably mean but if I really haven't led anything should they have moved!!!

As for the feminine side - I'm told my dancing with other ladies is very sexy and feminine, which surprises people as you're taking a more masculine role by leading. (note to self - must grab Tess for a dance next time I see her and practice my blues dancing ).

Angel xx

[El Salsero Gringo]

I am very much a beginner lead, and I mostly dance with beginners in freestyle. A lot of the beginner women that I dance with have commented on how much better my lead is than that of the men.

Guys, I think it's time we all just retired to the bar and left the ladies to their dancing and their loviness. Clearly we are no longer needed. (Naturally, we leave the video cameras on though.)

[Tessalicious]

Guys, I think it's time we all just retired to the bar and left the ladies to their dancing and their loviness. Clearly we are no longer needed.

Don't be silly darling, there's nothing us girls like better than being led by a masterful man. Is there ladies?

(Naturally, we leave the video cameras on though.)

I see your game - put the camera down.

[Lou]

One thing I'd like to pick up on in the original post, which has been bugging me about this thread from the start, is this:Females, or ladies as I think we usually prefer to be called, do not dance, taxi, lead or anything else, as men

We were even saying the same thing back in January 2005.

And I totally disagree with the original statement on this thread. Personally, I found that learning to lead actually helped my following, as I discovered how difficult it was to lead other ladies with the same bad habits I had. My following changed, but I hope for the better.