Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 88

Thread: Copyright laws: Sharing / copying TV programmes / software.

  1. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Thanks
    240
    Thanked 219 Times in 155 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    It's not stealing, and it's not theft. The concept of theft doesn't apply when something can be duplicated at zero cost. I'm not saying it isn't wrong, but dont use the language that the recording industry and software industries have managed to con on everyone if ever you want to think about the subject in an unbiased manner.
    It cannot be generated at zero cost. According to your logic the package I wrote could have sold 1 copy, and the company I worked for would have gone into liquidation a good few years earlier, and it would be just fine. Intellectual property rights are at the root of our prosperity.

  2. #22
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,881
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Rep Power
    10

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    It cannot be generated at zero cost.
    No that's quite true. But the marginal cost of supply is effectively zero. Exactly zero, in the case of internet downloads.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    According to your logic the package I wrote could have sold 1 copy, and the company I worked for would have gone into liquidation a good few years earlier, and it would be just fine.
    No, that doesn't follow from what I said in the slightest.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjver
    Intellectual property rights are at the root of our prosperity.
    And I think *that* is one of the most tendentious and least accurate statements I have ever read on this forum.

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Thanks
    240
    Thanked 219 Times in 155 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    No that's quite true. But the marginal cost of supply is effectively zero. Exactly zero, in the case of internet downloads.
    You cannot download a physical dongle. Cost of delivery = 1 floppy disk, 1 dongle, postage and customs fees to Korea, China, Japa, Singapore, whatever.

    No, that doesn't follow from what I said in the slightest.And I think *that* is one of the most tendentious and least accurate statements I have ever read on this forum.
    Fact 1: When I left the software I wrote was the major profit source for the company. The only other department making a profit was maintenance. Without that income the company would have gone into liquidation far sooner.
    Fact 2.: If somebody had successfully cracked the software from the first copy sold they could easily have found all of our customers by consulting the trade directories as present in every library in this country. It would be an easy sale.
    Customer on phone:- "Do you know of any software that does conversion from ____?" (This means that they have not read our sales literature. The conversion facility was an very occasional and comparitively minor benefit of the package.)
    MD: "We have a a package that does just that, and a whole lot more. It costs 900+VAT"
    Customer:"Wow, that's a lot." .... "I shall have to have it."

    I asked for a rise on the basis of that conversation. My boss was leaning on his Mercedes at the time, playing with a newly acquired Sat-Nav device for his aeroplane. He told me that he could not afford one at the moment. It did not seem like the truth at the time.

    I had the misfortune to work for another company that had its software stolen even before its first sale, and that company disappeared very soon after. The critical conclusive evidence was not admissible in court.

    Because the big corporations throw lots of hype and BS at us and our politicians, it does not follow that their arguments about intellectual property have no basis in fact. Dyson, for one, would not exist without that protection. The huge profits exist only because of that protection. If that protection did not exist, neither the huge companies, nor most of their products, would exist.

  4. #24
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,881
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Rep Power
    10

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    You cannot download a physical dongle. Cost of delivery = 1 floppy disk, 1 dongle, postage and customs fees to Korea, China, Japa, Singapore, whatever.
    The only purpose of the dongle is to artificially raise the marginal cost of the software. There's no need for it. I don't see therefore that it affects the argument. It's certainly the case that compared with manufactured goods, cars, hardware and so on, software has zero marginal cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Fact 1....
    Fact 2....
    Customer on phone.....
    I asked for a rise....
    etc
    A few examples of (mis)management of a software company do not a cogent argument make.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Because the big corporations throw lots of hype and BS at us and our politicians, it does not follow that their arguments about intellectual property have no basis in fact. Dyson, for one, would not exist without that protection. The huge profits exist only because of that protection. If that protection did not exist, neither the huge companies, nor most of their products, would exist.
    Well now that's not strictly true is it? Linux and the output of the free software (free as in speech not as in beer yada yada yada) movement are products of an approach to intellectual property entirely opposite to the one you espouse. One example does not make an argument - but a counterexample certainly can destroy one.

  5. #25
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    1,156
    Thanks
    238
    Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts

    Rep Power
    9

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    No that's quite true. But the marginal cost of supply is effectively zero. Exactly zero, in the case of internet downloads
    Being pendantic, the marginal cost of a particular download may be exactly zero, but while generally very small it may not be generally zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Intellectual property rights are at the root of our prosperity.
    And I think *that* is one of the most tendentious and least accurate statements I have ever read on this forum
    It seems a reasonably arguable proposition .
    I doubt it would be generally disputed that technology and inventions are at the root of our prosperity.

    Whether inventions discovered only because of protection, or discovered more quickly are cumulatively most significant may not be clear.

  6. #26
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Thanks
    240
    Thanked 219 Times in 155 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    The only purpose of the dongle is to artificially raise the marginal cost of the software. There's no need for it.
    Anything one can write in code, one can decode. It just needs brains and time. That is why there is so much hacked software around. A dongle can have its code hidden in a microprocessors eprom. This too can be cracked, but the technology involved costs, and that puts it beyond the vast majority of hackers. Whilst the profits from the software were vital to the company, there were so many far more easy and lucrative targets out there that a hacker working for resale would prefer to attack those. If you can persuade Microsoft that you know how to protect their software without such measures I believe that you could become extremely rich.

    Linux and the output of the free software (free as in speech not as in beer yada yada yada) movement are products of an approach to intellectual property entirely opposite to the one you espouse.
    Linux owed much to those who worked for love, and rely on their income from the protected model to keep them alive whilst they work on it. It is the nature of programmers. A program that I wrote in a weekend for the love of it because I thought it would be useful and gave me practise in the use of recursion (Critical Path) now lies at the heart of a large companies operations. All I got for that was an Honorary "Software of the Year" award from my boss, after I had left. The travelling salesman algorithm I came up with was done for love. The money I used to live with came from the protected economic model. The major money making operations that rely on the work done by the Linux pioneers (Sony Playstation is one, I believe) very much rely on the protectionist model.

    One example does not make an argument - but a counterexample certainly can destroy one.
    So, supply me with an example of where piracy has been proven to benefit the pirated.

  7. #27
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    How can you draw a distinction between hobbyists and businesses? ("businesses use software but they don't enjoy it...")
    My distinction is between people that use software for a living and people that have and use computers for leisure.

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Thanks
    267
    Thanked 644 Times in 356 Posts

    Rep Power
    12

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    It's not stealing, and it's not theft. The concept of theft doesn't apply when something can be duplicated at zero cost.
    Thank you for your example

    This is exactly what I'm talking about. Redefine it, and it doesn't seem wrong. Don't like the idea of stealing something? Call is something else, and do it anyway with a clearer conscience.

    I couldn't have illustrated it better myself. Thank you again.

  9. #29
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,881
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Rep Power
    10

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by frodo
    Being pendantic, the marginal cost of a particular download may be exactly zero, but while generally very small it may not be generally zero.


    It seems a reasonably arguable proposition .
    I doubt it would be generally disputed that technology and inventions are at the root of our prosperity.
    And I'm not disputing that intellectual 'property' lies at the root of our prosperity (although your vocabulary - treating knowledge as 'property' that can be owned like a knife a fork shows either that you sit on one side of the argument or more likely that you haven't thought about it sufficiently). I don't believe that intellectual 'property' rights are the root cause of prosperity, as bidjiver said.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    A program that I wrote in a weekend for the love of it because I thought it would be useful and gave me practise in the use of recursion (Critical Path) now lies at the heart of a large companies operations. All I got for that was an Honorary "Software of the Year" award from my boss, after I had left. The travelling salesman algorithm I came up with was done for love. The money I used to live with came from the protected economic model.
    The fact that your income came from the protectionist model doesn't mean it's the only, or even the best route.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Linux owed much to those who worked for love, and rely on their income from the protected model to keep them alive whilst they work on it.
    Actually that's not true. Most contributors to the Linux project are paid to do so full time by the companies they work for; there is a rich income stream in the Free Software model for those that are interested to tap it.

  10. #30
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The Beoverse
    Posts
    7,985
    Thanks
    328
    Thanked 242 Times in 148 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I take it you're not a big fan of Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation?.
    I never said that. I'm a great fan of the freeware, Open source, and GNU project mindsets.

    My Software site had LOTS of FREEWARE utilities on there. Stuff I'm still willing to give out.. however, I had put a lot of time and effort into a couple of my larger applications and felt that a modest recompense was called for if it was being used. I had a FREE version of the same software on my website, just with a limited feature set.

    Why should I tolerate someone ripping me off? Suppose you ran a bakers. You baked lots and lots of free iced buns to give away to the customers, but spent a lot of time baking a wedding cake to sell and some low life comes in and decided to pilfer the cake? (odd analogy but it's early) You'd be a bit P*ssed off.

    So don't paint me as some miserly tightfisted bill gates wannabe. I have wholeheartedly embraced the GNU project and freeware mentality. The majority of the software I had on my website was FREE , but obviously Free isn't good enough for some people.. they seem to think if its software they have the god given right to rip you off.

    And I'm sorry.. if you STEAL software that I'VE Written .. yeah I'd say that's THEFT. I earn my living from computer programming.. why don't I give my services away for free.. I suppose I can always beg for scraps from the people who use the software to their benefit.

  11. #31
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    . If you can persuade Microsoft that you know how to protect their software without such measures I believe that you could become extremely rich.
    Its interesting that the 2nd biggest software company in the world has no protection in any of their software and has it all freely downloadable from their web site. They dont see the need for protection Whilst the software is not for your average home user, neither was your companies software by the sound of it.

    Also, why is the shareware market so successful? Companies have been successful from people choosing to pay for something they didnt 'need' to pay for. A good example, as they have a histroy section on their site, is the company behind ultraedit.
    (Some companies do shoot themselves in the foot with this and release limited and restrcited products and charge money to unlock it, that sort of blackmail is inadvisable at best - people just go elsewhere (the free and pro version idea works fine, feels like less of a con.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver

    Intellectual property rights are at the root of our prosperity.
    Wow. People do tend to come up with the same ideas at particular points in time, like the 5 or so people that all "invented the TV" no one is claiming IP rights for that thank goodness. Nowadays we have "ordering something with 1 click on a website" protected by a patent, the Da Vinci Code auther being sued for copying anothers book when eveything in it could have come from many sources..these are all related to the central idea that ideas themselves are 'owned'. IP rights stifle innovation.

    To quote wikipedia.

    Some consider that the expansion of intellectual property laws upsets the balance between encouraging and facilitating creativity and innovation, and the dissemination of new ideas and creations into the public domain for the common good. They consider that as most new ideas are simply derived from other ideas, intellectual property laws tend to reduce the overall level of creative and scientific advancement in society. They argue that innovation and competition is in effect stifled by expanding IP laws, as litiguous IP rights holders aggressively or frivolously seek to protect their portfolios.
    So not only do i heartily disagree that IP is the "root of our prosperity", I also would say it benefits no one except a few corporate companies.
    Last edited by Dreadful Scathe; 5th-July-2006 at 09:01 AM.

  12. #32
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970
    And I'm sorry.. if you STEAL software that I'VE Written .. yeah I'd say that's THEFT.
    The only thing you are being deprived of is income, not a physical product. Its not theft as far as the law is concerned. No different to someone passing round a book they've bought to all of their friends - is that theft of the book? Is some pulp nonsense like the 'Da Vinci Code' not evidence enough for you that the systems works as it is ? If its good enough and unique enough, you'll make your money.

    It would be nice if software developers could get paid for every single person that had used their software but as thats never been the case for every song, book, magazine, video or anything else - why would software be unique in this?

  13. #33
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The Beoverse
    Posts
    7,985
    Thanks
    328
    Thanked 242 Times in 148 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    The only thing you are being deprived of is income, not a physical product. Its not theft as far as the law is concerned. ?
    So if I hacked into your place of employment and changed the bank transfer details to pay all your wage into my account I'm not stealling.. After it's JUST INCOME not a physical product after all.

    When I wrote that software I was in a very ow paid job. I could have put a $$$ price on everypiece of software I wrote but I gave the majority of it away. I gave free support via email and implemented users feature requests.

    Sure the low life scum that decided to rip me off didn't steal anything physical. Just my time, my effort, my patience and my tolereance of people who are so blinkered to think that software piracy is a victimless crime.

    here have my kidneys as well. After all I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks they need them more than me and can't afford to buy their own.


  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Thanks
    240
    Thanked 219 Times in 155 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    The only thing you are being deprived of is income, ...
    Quite.

  15. #35
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Thanks
    267
    Thanked 644 Times in 356 Posts

    Rep Power
    12

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970
    here have my kidneys as well. After all I'm sure there's someone out there who thinks they need them more than me and can't afford to buy their own.

    Thank you - that's very kind. I don't actually need them, you understand - I just want to distribute pieces of them to anyone who asks, because your kidneys should be free to everyone, dammit!!!

  16. #36
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970
    So if I hacked into your place of employment and changed the bank transfer details to pay all your wage into my account I'm not stealling.. After it's JUST INCOME not a physical product after all.
    er..you would be stealing money. Piracy is a copyright issue, there is no way to know if the person copying your software would have actually paid for it if the copy wasnt available. So you MAY lose income but it also, if the people see the software and like it, you may GAIN income. So my point about income is that it would be the only thing you are possiblly going to lose not that you actually would in every instance

  17. #37
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Thanks
    163
    Thanked 573 Times in 379 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264
    Thank you - that's very kind. I don't actually need them, you understand - I just want to distribute pieces of them to anyone who asks, because your kidneys should be free to everyone, dammit!!!
    unless you have a star trek-esq matter replicator its hardly the same thing is it

  18. #38
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Northeastern Parts
    Posts
    5,221
    Thanks
    267
    Thanked 644 Times in 356 Posts

    Rep Power
    12

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    No different to someone passing round a book they've bought to all of their friends - is that theft of the book?
    No. But if someone was to make multiple physical copies of the book, and you took one and read it, then yes. That's breaking the copyright. That's theft.

    If someone was to, say, scan that book in (assuming it's still under copyright), and distribute it electronically via IRC... then for you to download it would be theft. (And yes, people do do this, and on a vast scale)

    So it is with software.

  19. #39
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The Beoverse
    Posts
    7,985
    Thanks
    328
    Thanked 242 Times in 148 Posts

    Rep Power
    11

    Re: House / Grey's Anatomy

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264
    No. But if someone was to make multiple physical copies of the book, and you took one and read it, then yes. That's breaking the copyright. That's theft.

    If someone was to, say, scan that book in (assuming it's still under copyright), and distribute it electronically via IRC... then for you to download it would be theft. (And yes, people do do this, and on a vast scale)

    So it is with software.
    thanks Straycat!

    I'm leaving this thread now.. it's not good for my blood pressure.. bulging veins in my forehead is not a good look for me I'm off to the calmer areas in the Cakes Thread !!

  20. #40
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,881
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Sharing / copying TV programmes

    Wow. Looks like the pigopolists (to borrow a word) have got us all tied up in knots. It's true though - take ownership of the vocabulary and you own the debate too.

    From the Theft Act (1968):

    "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and ‘theft’ and ‘steal’ shall be construed accordingly."


    If you copy a computer program, you can't possible deprive the owner of it. So much as the great software houses would like you to believe, it's not theft. End of story.

    Time we started giving words back their correct meaning; when you do that it's amazing how fast the red mist lifts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    And I'm sorry.. if you STEAL software that I'VE Written .. yeah I'd say that's THEFT.
    Call it what you like - but that don't make it so.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Single and sharing
    By Groovemeister in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 2nd-October-2006, 09:02 PM
  2. Sharing with strangers
    By Chicklet in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 7th-January-2006, 12:32 AM
  3. I'm back & sharing my news..
    By xSalsa_Angelx in forum Chit Chat
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 29th-June-2005, 01:43 PM
  4. Laws of work
    By Gadget in forum Fun and Games
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 16th-July-2004, 06:29 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •