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Thread: Teachers running out of moves

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Teachers running out of moves

    Confession time.

    Is it just me but after 7 years or so of teaching, I feel I'm running out of moves that inspire me to teach. In the old days it was quite easy. Being part of Ceroc there was the annual update which used to include some of the Vitkor type moves and others form the more inventive instructors. since I left the fold its been a far bigger challenge. There is always the option of 'assimilating' moves from the weekender DVDs, and my loose association with Blitz gets me their update moves, but nothing of significance seems to have appeared over this last year or so.

    When I was in London I did have the befit of Kate & Will's Jango lessons, but these aren't moves I'd scare my classes with in the North, even if I broke ethics to 'borrow' them.

    So, question to the independent instructors. Where and how do you get new moves to keep your loyal dancers coming back for more?

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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Can I suggest a change in the focus of classes from solely moves to include improvisation/variation...?

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    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    what about a class where the routine is the same move three times with different styling?
    low level intermediates will think they are learnign three moves, and more advanced dancers will appreciate seeing how a move can change for different music.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleks
    Can I suggest a change in the focus of classes from solely moves to include improvisation/variation...?


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    Junior Member ginger M's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp
    what about a class where the routine is the same move three times with different styling?
    low level intermediates will think they are learnign three moves, and more advanced dancers will appreciate seeing how a move can change for different music.
    Good idea.
    That's what I was taught in West Casot Swing class this week, and it keeps everyone happy
    I am sure if you hunted around for ceroc dvds from Oz you would find some good material.

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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp
    what about a class where the routine is the same move three times with different styling?
    I've done that teaching WCS, and some people complained they were short-changed. One person made a very good point - if you don't like the base move, then you get virtually nothing from the lesson.

    Teach the 3 variations over 3 classes, and it seems to make people happier.

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    Ceroc Teacher Dan Hudson's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Confession time.

    Is it just me but after 7 years or so of teaching, I feel I'm running out of moves that inspire me to teach. In the old days it was quite easy. Being part of Ceroc there was the annual update which used to include some of the Vitkor type moves and others form the more inventive instructors. since I left the fold its been a far bigger challenge. There is always the option of 'assimilating' moves from the weekender DVDs, and my loose association with Blitz gets me their update moves, but nothing of significance seems to have appeared over this last year or so.

    When I was in London I did have the befit of Kate & Will's Jango lessons, but these aren't moves I'd scare my classes with in the North, even if I broke ethics to 'borrow' them.

    So, question to the independent instructors. Where and how do you get new moves to keep your loyal dancers coming back for more?
    Join the CTA ... you get updates then

  8. #8
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleks
    Can I suggest a change in the focus of classes from solely moves to include improvisation/variation...?
    I'm afraid been there, done that. Despite what you may read on this Forum the average UK MJ class is massively focused on moves and don't appreciate too much style in a normal class ... that and its actualy quite hard to teach style from the stage (IMHO).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Hudson
    Join the CTA ... you get updates then
    What, once more join union with the Dark Side (once more). Not much chance, I'm CONSIDERABLY over 28 and no longer a size 8 That reminds me, how the heck did you get in? Seriously though, are the new update moves that much different to the ones that I have gone before?

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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    There are only so many positions you can get into, and there are only so many ways out of them again.

    Many³ people have commented that I seem to know millions of moves and none of them are the same as anyone else is doing; that's just because I don't dance in 'moves', but in 'movements' - I have only seen one "new" movement in the last couple of years, there are a couple from a recent TV program (4dance) that look fairly new and I've yet to assimilate, {} but I know exactly what you mean.

    Perhaps take a leaf out of Franck's book - he posted elsewhere that he looks first at a concept he wants to explore, then builds a few moves round it.

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    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Gus, post the moves you know -- and the rest of us can tell you the ones you don't

    SpinDr

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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Only been teaching about 18 months, but have found that putting the lesson together is the real "work" side of running a venue, and what causes most arguments in our household !!!

    To answer your question: my partner and myself often start with a piece of music we fancy teaching to on the given night.....getting to the venue early to plan the lesson. We often build up, over 3/4 weeks, from a beginners move making it more involved each week....giving our regular dancers (especially those not long up from the beginners class) a running theme. New moves arrive out of trying multiple variations of things until something works....not very scientific but it works for us.

    The disappointing part of teaching is when you can visably see the room switch off when you try to teach technique (maybe I`m just dull ).

    The thing that inspires me to teach is not doing the lessons....though I do enjoy putting myself in the firing line....it`s teaching one to one on the dance floor. The reward coming from teaching beginner dancers their first few moves or intermediate dancers how to dance in the slot, making their spins cleaner, footwork tidier and overall dancing more streamlined is for me the best part of running a venue.

    If you do ever write all your moves down (above), don`t forget to send me a copy

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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    The advantage of a big organisation is that you have a big support network! If you are on your own it is up to you to make contacts, and have professional meetings with other respected independent MJ teachers. The New MJ teacher from another discipline ( Ballet/tap/ballroom.....) will bring fresh thoughts into MJ. The Longer established dancer or teacher will remember moves from long ago that may have lapsed from current teaching but be ready for re-release.

    Look out the names of long ago and find a few and chat to them!

    There are two class styles, the fixed tune and routine to it,vs the new track for each "and now with music"

    Fortunately, as you have been there for every class of the past years, but your punters have not, your feeling of deja-vu may not be shared by your clients.

  13. #13
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleks
    Can I suggest a change in the focus of classes from solely moves to include improvisation/variation...?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    I'm afraid been there, done that. Despite what you may read on this Forum the average UK MJ class is massively focused on moves and don't appreciate too much style in a normal class ... that and its actualy quite hard to teach style from the stage (IMHO).
    I agree that improvisation is not an easy thing to teach. And you need to know technique and some musical interpretation to really get to grips with it. But Aleks is spot on in identifying it as its one of the best things about MJ - you don't have to stick to the set moves - but that's not the message we are giving people.

    So what about technique? And if...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ...the average UK MJ class is massively focused on moves...
    ...is that because that is the sort of person that MJ attracts or because that's what MJ does and so what people expect?

    I know that I was only a matter of weeks into learning MJ when I began to notice that it was all about moves and wondered when they were going to start teaching us how to dance. Not being a 'Ceroc' class the teacher did begin to introduce styling, tell us a little about breaks and how to listen to the music. No-one knew that wasn't what to expect from an MJ class.

    Having finally had the chance to attend a Ceroc class on a regular basis I'm aware that its very moves focused. And locally it wouldn't have to be, as people don't know to expect that so more technique could be put in and I really don't think we'd frighten anyone off. But that's not the Ceroc way I suppose.

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    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    I'm CONSIDERABLY over 28 and no longer a size 8 That reminds me, how the heck did you get in?
    I am not a size 8 either and i got in!

    I dont think ceroc is all about moves, when i teach my class i try and put in bits about balance, posture, connection, lead and follow. But the average beginner can only take so much in one go and if you were to give them less moves and more other stuff, would they still feel like they were dancing? I know if someone had taught me two move and then other stuff i would have felt like i wasnt dancing by the end of the night, as it is i went along learnt fours moves my first night and well the rest they say is history....

    If you want style, or other non moves related stuff there are plenty of cerocshops/ workshops to attend!

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    I dont think ceroc is all about moves, when i teach my class i try and put in bits about balance, posture, connection, lead and follow.
    And some of the lovely intermediate moves you have been teaching recently are really helping the men learn how to lead.
    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    But the average beginner can only take so much in one go and if you were to give them less moves and more other stuff, would they still feel like they were dancing? I know if someone had taught me two move and then other stuff i would have felt like i wasnt dancing by the end of the night, as it is i went along learnt fours moves my first night and well the rest they say is history....
    No they aren't 'dancing' at the end of the first night, they are going through a set of moves. And the point of them 'feeling' like they are dancing isn't about teaching them to dance, its about beginner retention rates, getting them to feel good and come back again. If you are trying to get them to feel that they are dancing at the end of one lesson then that is giving a message that doing moves is dancing. Hence the resistance further down the line of learning too much technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    If you want style, or other non moves related stuff there are plenty of cerocshops/ workshops to attend!
    Agree that style is something that can be left mostly to workshops. Or something that can be picked up over time as people develop their own style. But technique is different.

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    Registered User jiveoholic's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    I'm feeling a little wicked - so......

    Learning Modern Jive is like typing with two fingers! 99% of typists bash out what they want with two fingers and are pleased. Little skill needed and it does the job. The 1% wished that someone taught them properly from the start. If you made the 100% learn properly, they would have given up before they started.

    I cannot see a solution to this - its inherent in the "clientele" that Jive is designed to attract.

    The result is that Modern Jive is an imprecise dance and two "good dancers" can dance together and not enjoy the experience...or perhaps they might. Other dance styles (eg swing and Salsa) have far fewer moves, but spend more time getting the tension and compression and the footwork all correct so dances between people are more consistent.

    Now some LeRoc-ers emphasise their "denomination" of footwork and, in theory, it provides a more consistent result. Perhaps this is the way to go - getting everyone to step back on the right move and erase redundent returns before anti-clockwise moves.....

    I love the yoyo (that is the version before C**** did something bad to it!). However I only get the great feeling from it with the occasional lady. Reason? - (here goes...) 95% of all ladies do not do it correctly. Reason? - they are rarely taught correctly.

    I would like to see one beginner move re-taken in an intermediate class and taught well - taught from a script so things aren't fogotten. Perhaps the teacher should blow a whistle on a particular count, everyone freezes and he goes down the lines and thwacks with a stick any body part that is out of line!

    Just to finish off....my partner says that she hardly every gets the moves taught that evening from men in freestyle! So it seems that more move may not be the answer. I tend to move from "doing moves" to "dancing" when the music is inspirational. Where has all the good music gone?!

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by jiveoholic
    my partner says that she hardly every gets the moves taught that evening from men in freestyle
    I wonder why men enjoy the class so much that they complain if the content changes, if they don't tend to take anything from it... Any ideas?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by jiveoholic
    Modern Jive is an imprecise dance and two "good dancers" can dance together and not enjoy the experience...or perhaps they might. Other dance styles (eg swing and Salsa) have far fewer moves,
    Hmm... I can't remember where I saw it, but I've seen an estimate for the number of WCS moves as being 3500 (and this would be back a few years). And Salsa is hardly immune to boasting about the number of moves (try a google on "million moves man").

    but spend more time getting the tension and compression and the footwork all correct so dances between people are more consistent.
    Because I've never heard anyone complain about on-1 v.s. on-2, or ECS v.s. Lindy v.s. WCS.

    So if the problem isn't the number of moves, what is it?

    Well, I've said something like this before, but the great advantage of MJ over other dance forms is that you can get to the stage of thinking "I can do this!" without having to know what to do with your feet, or (much) about timing, tension, etc. And the great disadvantage is exactly the same...

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    Registered User jiveoholic's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Hmm... I can't remember where I saw it, but I've seen an estimate for the number of WCS moves as being 3500 (and this would be back a few years). And Salsa is hardly immune to boasting about the number of moves (try a google on "million moves man").
    Maybe there are many, but from by dip into Salsa and WCS, it seems one can enjoy a dance with fewer moves, and many do so, indeed at Salsa they could only teach us one intermediate move per evening instead of 4 because there were more teaching points.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Well, I've said something like this before, but the great advantage of MJ over other dance forms is that you can get to the stage of thinking "I can do this!" without having to know what to do with your feet, or (much) about timing, tension, etc. And the great disadvantage is exactly the same...
    Hear hear!

  20. #20
    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Teachers running out of moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    No they aren't 'dancing' at the end of the first night, they are going through a set of moves. And the point of them 'feeling' like they are dancing isn't about teaching them to dance, its about beginner retention rates, getting them to feel good and come back again. If you are trying to get them to feel that they are dancing at the end of one lesson then that is giving a message that doing moves is dancing. Hence the resistance further down the line of learning too much technique.
    Yes i have to admit that four moves and dancing by the end of the night do help retain people, how ever i have to disagree with you that the message is "doing moves is dancing" When i taxi-ed and when i am teaching and dancing with people i try and help people by reminding them to add other moves in to their routine. When this is with intermediates, i guide them into breaks, i remind them of musicality and general take dancing away from moves.

    Most male beginners find dancing intimidating and when you tell them "its better to do 3 moves well than a hole heap badly, they really respond to it, you start telling them, ladies want musicality, style etc etc, you are never going to have any men to dance ceroc with.

    And isnt dancing, something you want to feel comfortable doing.

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