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Thread: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

  1. #1
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Last night I was very embarassed to be told half-way through a song that it was too fast for me. The guy actually stopped dancing with me and walked away (Needless to say he wasn't nice enough to come back and ask me for a slower one later )

    So anyway. Why can't I keep up ?? Is it due to my lack of footwork, am I not fit enough ???

    What can I do to get better ? What classes can I get to help - Lindy or something ?? Should I just give up and stick to Santana ??? Do I need black and white flat shoes and a 1940's dress ???

    In France, they play really fast stuff (don't know how many BPMs - but it's fast !) so if I don't get better I'll miss out on a lot of dancing.

    Help !!!



    Wx

    PS I did a workshop (with Nigel and Nina I think ??) at Camber a few years ago "How to dance to fast music" but I never really got the chance to put what I learned into practice and now I don't remember any of it

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    If you feel like you are dancing on beat to the fast music then I would say you are half timing it......

    as to help - take little steps - the less distance you travel the faster you can move. also keep any styling and arm movements tidy and tight for the same reasons there isn't enough time in the music for big styling.

    I woudl also enquire of other partners is they are finding that you aren't up to speed on the faster songs

    can you give us an example of the types of songs they play?

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    There are two main and a couple of minor reasons that I would put down (not having seen you dance):

    • too big steps
    • settling on the heel
    • dancing too much from your knees/thighs as opposed to calves/anckles
    • insufficient cross pressure


    The faster the music the shorter your steps should be. Short steps are generally a virtue in dance because they allow you to use your body much more.

    Settling on the heel is a decease in Ceroc/MJ but also found in other styles. What I mean by this is people putting down their heel and their weight on it. That way a 'dead point' is being reached which takes time to get off because you have to restart your motion from zero. Movement should always be fluid, 'rolling'. By the time you put down your heel your body should have reached the turning point from backwards to forwards motion.

    Dancing from your knees/thighs means that you are bending and maybe even bouncing a little from your knees. This is common and a lot of Cerocers do it but it actually makes you slow. Movement from your calves and anckles may tire you out faster (to start with) but it reduces the 'way' and increases agility dramatically.

    When I say insufficient cross pressure I am not implying that you have to have a rigid are. It is actually pointing towards increased awareness and faster response. What I tend to recommend to improve response times is to simply 'carry' your elbow. You see it in Latin American dances quite nicely, should/elbow line just sligtly angled downwards. By doing this you will have a natural tension in your arm without constantly pushing against the guy.

    Hope that helps.

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Sounds like the height of rudeness to me. I have, maybe once or twice, asked a girl if she would like to stop & wait for a slower track (I put it more diplomatically) - but to walk away? Bad manners, plain and simple.

    What makes it easier to dance to really fast tracks?
    For leaders and followers:
    Smaller steps. In fact, keep everything small - understate everything.
    Less footwork - if you can cut out a step here or there, feel free to.
    Relax.

    For leaders:
    Keep it simple. Do not do your most complex risky moves.
    Do not do moves which involve a lot of travelling, or multiple fast spins.
    Change the timing - dance at half-speed. No shame in that.
    Take frequent breaks. Always looks good anyway.
    Gentle down the lead. A standard tendency is to get more forceful with the lead as the music gets faster - need to watch out for that - you can hurt your partner, and you won't be as precise.
    RELAX!!! (if you don't, your partner can't)

    It all boils down to 'less is more' - keep your energies tighter, more controlled.

    As for what happened on the occasion you describe, I can offer a nice simple theory:

    The music was too fast for your partner.
    He obviously couldn't lead you at that speed. Maybe you found the speed a bit too difficult, or maybe his lead had gone to pot and you simply found it confusing, I don't know - but he didn't clearly know how to adapt to you and the music, and fix the problem, so he just gave up and walked away. Man clearly wasn't up to it.

    How to get better? Dance lots! (just not with the guy you mention), and if nothing else, just keep it small, and keep it simple.

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wendy
    PS I did a workshop (with Nigel and Nina I think ??) at Camber a few years ago "How to dance to fast music" but I never really got the chance to put what I learned into practice and now I don't remember any of it
    I've done this (or something similar). From what I remember, a lot of it was about selecting moves which suit the music (which a follower doesn't have much control over).

    I have a vague memory of doing moves while jogging at the same time though?
    Love dance, will travel

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wendy


    Wx
    I will admit to being a bit of a speed junkie - much to Jivecats horror quite often when I'm at Leicester (doubly so now emma's gone) because when it's fast you need someone who can. That's can as in move, wing it, respond, get ME outta trouble when it all goes horribly, all of that!

    I will also admit to saying 'This is too fast for. . . ' I choose the word US there to save embarrassment and offering to leave the floor and catch the next one. That seems fair to me.

    I think fast track demands that you sing in your head - you need to feel the music rather than hear it. That way it's inside you and bopping before you try and get your body moving. When you are moving stay on your toes figuratively and literally, the next move is on it's way before you may be turning out of the last one (especially if you have a slow return) look for it feel it coming in the music. Being on your toes sort of winds you up ready to pounce into the next bit I throw at you as well.

    Stating the 'bleeding obvious' momentarilly but as the tempo increases the time per beat reduces. Normally I will expect a return or a spin to last a beat. I know I'm a control freak when I'm leading (yeah yeah I've been told before!) but a spin or return will last a beat - unless I notice that you are trying to do something slow and seductive (actually I normally notice this 3 or 4 moves later and think D'oh!) but the spin or return WILL last a beat, kicking or screaming if necessary but a beat. There are quite a few ladies who turn at their normal turn rate regardless of the music - these are disheartening dances for me. Fast tracks where I can't get her round in time become a battle of my more and more forceful lead (hello porridge! Lets Turn!) against some unwritten rule that states a t u r n m u s t b e d o n e t h i s q u i c k l y . . . . arrghhh It does go the other way too BTW a fast spinner who insists on spinning at break neck speeds in really sedate tracks and then looks at you as if to say come on then whats next?? Whats Going on there???

    One last gripe, If its fast drop the fancy stuff on every return - it's using up my time. If you can do it and finish in the allotted time (erm that'll be a beat then) - fine fill ya boots girl but if not drop it in preference to being with me on time and in rythm with the music.

    So class in summary what have we discussed today.

    Fast dancing is great but it's harder work both have to move faster and think faster. The guy should sensibly stick to moves that are well known and preferably easier (do a simple move brilliantly it's better than a fantastic move done crap) and in response the girl should make sure she finishes the moves in the correct time - dancing faster or dropping the girly stuff your choice.

    Phew wanted to say that for a while.


  7. #7
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    I'd say there are 5 main points to remember when dancing to fast music:

    1. Keep your moves small, there's no need to do 10 spins, 1 will do, and keep the flashy stylising to a minimum
    2. Keep it simple, a little out of the followers control, but the smaller simpler moves are the way to go with the fast stuff
    3. Keep to your space, what I mean is don't move around the floor too much, that's up to both of you, keep your steps small, the less distance you have to travel on each move, the more you'll be able to do
    4. Keep the connection with your partner at all times, keep your focus on them, and make sure you have a good physical connection, its much easier to dance to fast stuff if both partners are happy that they know that the other one will always be exactly where they expect them to be, when they expect them to be there
    5. Dance with someone who isn't downright rude! He was leading! Most of what I've said (all though not all of it) is up to the lead to do, as followers we only have so much control! He should have danced to your ability, and enjoyed the whole dance for what it was, he's rude and arrogant, so what if he didn't ask you to dance again, who wants to dance with someone like THAT anyway?

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264
    He obviously couldn't lead you at that speed. Maybe you found the speed a bit too difficult, or maybe his lead had gone to pot and you simply found it confusing, I don't know - but he didn't clearly know how to adapt to you and the music, and fix the problem, so he just gave up and walked away. Man clearly wasn't up to it.
    Can we please get away from this idea that it is ALWAYS the leads fault.

    The lead thas got thier job to do. The follower has their job to do. The only thing that you can do to to make the partnership work is to ensure that you are doing your own job well. A great lead cannot make a beginner follower dance like a champion and vice versa.

    All the advice above about keeping things simple is absolutely right. As the speed goes up the complexity should go down. Take smaller steps is also great advice but hard to do if you keep ending up 6 feet apart from each other.

    I have found three things that followers do that imposes a definate speed limit on the speed of music that the follower can dance to.

    1) They over decorate. When they dance slowly they are used to turning their shoulders away from thier partner, chucking in Rondes ad nauseum, doing hip twists in place of every rockstep, or complcated styling things with thier spare hand. When the speed gets fast you just don't have the time to do these things. The lead is then leading the woman towards him on time with the music but she hasn't finsihed doing her decoration. The follower ends up thinking "why is he yanking me around all the time" and the lead ends up thinking "she moves like she weighs a ton, why am I having to haul her ar$se across the floor".

    2) Their rock step is bad. When they do their rockstep their weight settles onto the back heel and in order to get their wieght forward to start moving towards their leader either the guy has to lead them with force or the woman has to throw themselves forward with such force that they arrive at their leader with so much momentun that they are off balance and unable to do anything. Their rock step has always been bad but at lower speeds they could fake it and sort of get away with it. At higher speeds the game is up. Change the rockstep so that your shoulders do not move backwards when you do a rockstep and your rear foot heel never actually touches the ground - instead the ball of your foot touches down first and your foot compresses down like a spring until the heel NEARLY touches the ground and then release that compression to bring the weigh you have moved backwards forward again. At the point that the compression in your rear foot is being released your leader ADDS tension to lead you forwards.

    3) They have LONG STRAIGHT ARMS. The only reason for your arm being straight is that you are just too darn far away from your partner. The follower has finished the move too far away and a bad rockstep when their shoulders move away from their partner just takes them further away. The closer you are when you finish the end of your rockstep the smaller the steps and the shorter the distance you have to cover. So you can do it faster and get it done within the time allowed to you by the music. The leader isn't dicatating the pace of the dance, the music is.

  9. #9
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Can we please get away from this idea that it is ALWAYS the leads fault.

    The lead thas got thier job to do. The follower has their job to do.

    However, only the lead has any control over which moves he is going to lead, and both parties have a very equal responsibility to not be rude and leave their partner looking like a right plum in the middle of the dancefloor!

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Can we please get away from this idea that it is ALWAYS the leads fault.
    That wasn't what I said. But since you bring it up, for an analogy of sorts - if you're driving a car with appallingly bad steering, drive it too fast round a bend, lose control and smack it into a tree, I'd be inclined to say it wasn't the car's fault.

    Not that I'm trying to compare Wendy to a car with bad steering. Ahem. Or even a car with good steering. (how deep can I dig this one?)

    Another point is that Wendy came at this from a 'How can I improve?' standpoint, which is always a good way to look at things, but I wanted to make it clear that if there's fault here, it's extremely unlikely to lie solely with her.

    Stray

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wendy
    So anyway. Why can't I keep up?
    I don't know. However, I can talk generally on why some followers can't keep up, and you can decide if any of them apply to you.

    Lack of frame is just a killer on fast music. If someone doesn't have frame, she just can't respond to leads fast enough, and compensating for this by overleading is a disaster waiting to happen. Sometimes I can get away with leading some kind of deviate jive/swing hybrid to compensate, but that really only works with beginners. Intermediate followers know too much.

    Lack of practice is depressingly common. Some followers panic and end up racing the music. That's a mistake: the music will always win. Other followers are unfamiliar with the trick of extending moves by a couple of beats here and there to make them more suited to the music. Some follow in a precise stoccatto fashion that just collapses at any kind of speed. There's all kinds of bad habits that make themselves more obvious at high tempos. I'll still dance with these followers: best solution to a lack of practice is more practice.

    A slightly less common problem is followers who have to dance everything at full stretch. This is disasterous for the frame (see above), and makes it much harder work for them. However, the main problem here is that they end up travelling at silly velocities. Together with the inherent uncontrollability of a frame-less follower, this makes it pretty likely that they'll run into someone or something, fast, and hurt themselves.

    There are other reasons, no doubt, but those are the ones most obvious to me as a lead. In general, practice lots, and build up to the fastest tracks slowly.

    ----

    I've been to a "turbo jive" lesson by Nigel and Nina at a weekender, and it was very dissappointing. They taught some kind of mutated East Coast Swing, and spent too much time talking. Oh well: they can't please everyone, I guess.

    Dancing Lindy will improve your fast MJ, yes. Lindy chicks tend to dance and style better when dancing MJ at higher tempos. However, that's something of a slow and indirect route, so I wouldn't recommend it to someone who only cared about improving their ability to do fast MJ.

    I don't recommend cutting out footwork. To dance fast MJ, I want to be able to lead smoothly, and make smooth changes to the lead across beats. If the follower has a foot stuck to the floor, she's going to struggle to follow those changes. It's better (though harder for her) if she keeps her footwork going.

    On styling... there's styling that works at high tempos, and there's styling that works at low tempos. If you've only learnt to style to slow music, then yeah you'll need to cut out your styling to fast music. And vica versa, come to that.

    Was the guy rude? I wasn't there. However, I do think it's better to stop dancing with someone who can't handle the pace of a song, rather than perservere and risk injuring them. Safety is more important than strange ideas about politeness. Bottom line: I'm not going to carry on dancing if I feel it's unsafe, regardless of what is causing that feeling of danger. Plus, if my partner is making me feel unsafe, I'm highly likely to tell her this straight.

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264
    That wasn't what I said. But since you bring it up, for an analogy of sorts - if you're driving a car with appallingly bad steering, drive it too fast round a bend, lose control and smack it into a tree, I'd be inclined to say it wasn't the car's fault.

    Another point is that Wendy came at this from a 'How can I improve?' standpoint, which is always a good way to look at things, but I wanted to make it clear that if there's fault here, it's extremely unlikely to lie solely with her.

    Stray
    To try and answer both StrayCat and Tiggtours here. I completely agree with you. If you put my mum in a Mclaren (the sports car not the baby buggy) then her lap times are not going to be stunning and if you put Michel Schumaker (sp?) in a Reliant Robin he would probably get out of it as much performance as was available but he probably wouldn't get pole position on the grid. This is why I said that could we please get away from the idea that it is ALWAYS the leads fault.

    This is why I said that each party had their job to do but they could only ensure that they did their own job well. A great follower cannot make a poor leader lead well.

    Wendy (a follower) did ask how she could improve so I gave my opinion, as a leader, as to the things that make dancing to fast music tough for me and what I think a follower can do to change things. I thought that I would concentrate only on those things that was within the power of a follower to change.

    I understand that Wendy now lives and dances in/near Paris. So Wendy found a rude frenchman. Who would have thought that could have happened? Come back to the UK soon. We are much more stiff upper lipped about bad dance experiences here.

    Still if he hadn't been so rude you might not have been asking the question about how you could improve. Try to think of this cloud as having a silver lining. Turn negative into positive.

  13. #13
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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    To try and answer both StrayCat and Tiggtours here.
    You don't need to answer me, I was completely agreeing with you, but you have to accept that sometimes it could be more the leads fault than the followers.

    I do agree that the follower has an equal responsibility to do everything that has been suggested here, which hopefully helps to answer the question originally raised by Wendy, but the lead is the only oen with any responsibility for making sure that the moves he choses to lead are moves that are suited to fast music, and some just aren't! The follower has absolutely no choice about that. That said, if someone tried to lead a triple reversed pretzel follwed by a reverse secret kneckbreak into a nose dive (or something equally as ridiculous) with me to Rock Around the Clock, I'd just let go! If I could, afterall a guy like that would probably be holding both my hands in some type of death grip!.

    I can dance really well to fast stuff with most people, but sometimes you get a lead who thinks he's really good because he knows alot of moves, and when he tries to lead you to fast stuff he doesn't have a clue what his follower is going through, and instead tries to lead things like the triple reversed pretzel followed by a secret kneckbreak into a nose dive, because he assumes that if his partner can follow it at 90 BPM, then she simply must be able to follow it at 6000 BPM!

    Please don't judge all leads by your own exceptionally high standards, Chef, some guys really do treat us ladies that way!

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    Please don't judge all leads by your own exceptionally high standards, Chef, some guys really do treat us ladies that way!
    Well a huge to your post above. We are in complete agreement. I think that all we have been talking about was I that I wanted to stop people thinking it was ALWAYS the leads fault and bring the emphasis closer to being dual and almost equal responsiblity.

    To the quote of yours that I have picked out above I have to say that I know exactly what you mean. I watch a fair bit from the sidelines because I don't like every track that is played and I can see some utter carnage out there on the dance floor. Coupled with that, Dawn, my partner often returns to me with her eyeballs still bouncing around telling me "it's a jungle out there" and sitting down for a massage for her arm or shoulder.

    When it gets fast then a lot of guys just try to do the same complicated moves JUST MUCH, MUCH FASTER aaaargh! Cease and desist. The trouble is that they can't do them smoothly when they do them slowly so when they try to do them fast the result is that the woman feels like they have been handcuffed to a peumatic road drill.

    To cut the guys a bit of slack here almost all MJ music has a speed range within very narrow limits so on those rare occasions when it gets real fast they have had no real training in fast dancing.

    So Tips just for the guys when it gets fast (just in case there some guys looking for some tips).

    Learn to dance real slow with a partner, do it smoothly. That smoothness will be your friend when the pace hots up. If it ain't smooth when it is slow it can't be smooth when it's fast.

    Keep it simple. Only do beginner moves. Unless you're really good you won't have time and brain power for anything else.

    Stay close to your partner. It will help keep both of your steps small and small steps can be done faster. You need to learn to do a proper rockstep just as much as she does and for the same reasons.

    Free spinning the woman rather than doing underarm turns will be easier for you both (as in turn and returns). With free spins both parties hands stay at the same level and they can be done faster and more cleanly. When you collect the womans hand absorb the womans rotational momentum gently so that she slows to a stop rather than stopping her with a jolt and jarring her back the other way.

    Take advantage of breaks to stop still. It looks like you know what you are doing and it gives both of you a chance to have a breather and for your followers eyes to stop rattling in their sockets.

    NEVER EVER do a drop in a rock and roll track. Unless of course you are both top notch dancers and each of you absolutely KNOW the other is able to do them at that speed. Unless you are superbly able treat this as a rule. After all if you were superbly able you wouldn't be wasting you time reading this.

    Have fun.
    Last edited by Chef; 29th-June-2006 at 04:43 PM.

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    I'm not sure about all the technical stuff, but I do enjoy dancing to the fast stuff - with the right partner!

    Some leaders try to throw in all their 'best' moves - but simple is best when speed is involved! Lets face it, the follower doesn't really have long to react...

    It seems to me that it is all about keeping it simple, keeping it small, keeping contact - and being prepared to laugh like hell if it all goes wrong!

    I agree with all the stuff about not settling on the heel, you shouldn't really have time to settle back, and keeping good tension in your arms helps the leader to whip you around nice and quickly.

    The most important thing is obviously practice! Don't give up because of the careless word of one guy - I'm sure he has no idea of the effect it has had on you!

    Keep going girl - feels great when it works!
    Sara

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by s9691
    I'm not sure about all the technical stuff, but I do enjoy dancing to the fast stuff - with the right partner!
    Which, you'll attest Sara, is certainly not me. I am absolutely useless at dancing to fast music for all the reasons pointed out in this thread. At this point I'd rather concentrate on getting the mid-paced and slower stuff right and try to avoid dancing the faster rock n roll style tracks.

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd
    Which, you'll attest Sara, is certainly not me. I am absolutely useless at dancing to fast music for all the reasons pointed out in this thread. At this point I'd rather concentrate on getting the mid-paced and slower stuff right and try to avoid dancing the faster rock n roll style tracks.
    You have such a smooooth style with the music that suits you - it would almost be a waste to get you up for the fast stuff!!!

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    If the man is not moving (imagine that - a stationary man!!) then the lady obviously has to do a lot of work. It is very difficult to start moving slowly and then accelerate. So one tip would be every time you step back, be ready to step forward very quickly. Don't step onto the back foot and settle your weight there. Leave your weight towards the front foot, and really drive off the back foot.

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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?


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    Re: Why can't I dance to fast tracks ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY
    I have a vague memory of doing moves while jogging at the same time though?
    Yip - I remember doing that !

    Wx

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