How many moves per routine?

[Beowulf]

Hi,

As a newbie every week I get 4 moves or so that fit into a routine. I know there's 12 basic routines for the beginners but I curious when dancing are you expected to just do the 4 move routine over and over and over or segue from one routine to another to another?

How many moves / routines is too many?

Any tips on breaking up the monotony (for both me and the follower?)

[LMC]

Make the most of the taxis and the dancers you already know to be helpful. They will help you to remember moves you've learned in previous lessons.

Once again, as followers, we are dancing with different leaders (and therefore different moves, different combinations) all evening. We will be *nowhere near* as bored as you are, I always feel sorry for beginner leads being stuck with limited moves, and get frustrated with my own repertoire even though I don't lead that much in freestyle.

There are 20 beginner's moves, so 12 routines over a few weeks will give you a fair number of combinations to play with. As a follower, I can assure you that very experienced dancers still have recognisable favourite combinations of moves

In many beginners' lessons, you'll find one left hand move, one right hand move, one double handed move and one 'change places' move (I'm talking about the lead's hands!). When I'm leading, I try to get a bit of variety in my combinations by deciding I'm going to lead all the right handed moves I know in order (but frequently need to sling a couple of manspins or shoulder slides in to get back onto my right hand as many of them are 'change hands' moves), then I'll do all the double handed moves I know in order... etc. Then the next dance, I'll try alternating right hand/left hand/both hands (which usually fails dismally, but it's quite fun thinking about it ) ... etc. Stuff like this helps with putting moves together in different orders.

As you get more practised with styling and playing with the music, you'll find you "need" fewer moves - but that *does* take time.

[straycat]

It's a matter of tradition, really.

You can mix and match the routines to a certain extent, but you do need to take the music and your partner into account. F-class routines, for example, should never be done to any music recorded before the eighties. B-class are OK in most situtations, but you should never mix them with Victor-Eiffel-rated routines if dancing with a blonde or a redhead (that's natural hair colour - if in doubt, ask before the dance begins) - UNLESS your own hair is naturally titian, in which case you should be able to get away with it.

Does that help?

[Tessalicious]

Interesting question.

I think the idea is not that you should ever, even from the beginning, feel you have to dance using the taught routines. They are given as a guide, so that dancing can be continuous from week one and so that you can pick up ideas for how to link moves together, but they are not all-encompassing. So, there is no set number of routines that you should know and include into a dance. Neither is there a set number of moves - although I've noticed that most beginners, and even early intermediates, can usually only remember and use the moves and routines they were taught that night.

My suggestion to my beginners (leaders) is to try after every class to remember one or two moves, preferably two that link together easily, and to have a go at dancing them at the next week/class they attend. This way, you start to build up a basic repertoire rather than just being able to dance what you learnt that night - this will also increase your confidence and make you less bored of the moves you are leading.

Most important thing to remember though, for guys that are worried that they don't know enough - a girl is probably only going to do one or two dances with you in a row, during which she probably doesn't have enough time or spare brain capacity to notice that you are leading either the routine you were taught that night, or last weeks routine, or any routine, for a large part of the dance. And if she does notice, she's unlikely to be annoyed about it, unless she's a hotshot. Unless its only one move all dance, and it's an octopus or a side to side - that can be depressing, sorry.

[Piglet]

are you expected to just do the 4 move routine over and over and over or segue from one routine to another to another??)

Either, or! I think it's easier for the freshest of beginners to try to stick to the 4 moves taught, but once they have a bit more confidence they can segue different moves into that routine or just simply freestyle the moves they remember. If you do a Beginners workshop they will give you ideas to use as your favourite filler moves that you can do over and over again to give you thinking time about your next move - the manspin is one such move, I like using the octopus cos crossing past your partner 3 times - or more if need be gives you as much time as you need.

How many moves / routines is too many? ??)

Infinite moves executed with clarity can never be too many As a follow I'm never aware of the particular moves I'm doing unless I'm with a fresh beginner - or someone who tells me "oops there was another arm jive" then I'll notice if he does another one straight after. Although I often think - great an octopus; manspin - cos those 2 moves were my favs as a beginner.

Any tips on breaking up the monotony (for both me and the follower?)

I can assure you that 99.9% of the time your dance will not be monotonous for your follower - unless you pin them down and dance 6 tracks in a row with them, perhaps However, I appreciate the monotony for yourself - that's why I prefer to follow rather than lead, I get bored with my moves, but its my own fault for only being bothered to use beginner moves when I lead, when I'm capable of doing more if I only put some effort into it.

[LMC]

Unless its only one move all dance, and it's an octopus or a side to side - that can be depressing, sorry.

sorry too.

But I did once have an entire dance of yo yos and that was actually OK because he led them SO nicely!

[straycat]

On a slightly more helpful note, my advice - as ever - is "don't worry about it".

What I used to do, way back in the beginning: after a lesson, during the first couple of dances, I'd make a point of going through the night's routine a couple of times in order. Then I'd try to mix the moves up a bit. Then I'd start mixing in any moves I could remember from previous weeks (sometimes not nearly as many as I would have liked)

Nothing is demanded of you. There's nothing to get wrong in the way you mix your moves. Don't fret it - just dance (I know I keep saying that, sorry)

[PeteK]

As a follower, I can assure you that very experienced dancers still have recognisable favourite combinations of moves

Whoops - as a leader I plead guilty to that one - but I must admit that there are some sequences of moves that flow very well together, and working them out for oneself comes with practice and experience. Once you've got a toolbox of say 20 to pick from, it's worth working out a few sequences that flow v well together and polishing them.

I've been told by a couple of followers that it's not necessarily how many different/weird moves you do, but that you lead them well and (if possible) stylishly, and dance with your partner rather than in mental isolation (easier said than done when thinking ummmm what move am I going to do in 2 beats time.... ).

Comments welcome

[ducasi]

Use the routine that night to help you remember the moves you were just taught. Next time just use the moves – not the routine.

Building your own routine "on the fly" for each dance is a challenge, but not so difficult really...

Ceroc moves can be classified into complex and simple...

Simple includes man-spin, back-pass, shoulder-drop, in-and-out, that sort of thing...

Complex includes first move, yo-yo, basket, catapult, etc...

Use the simple moves as fillers between the complex moves. They can get you onto the right (or left!) hand ready to do the more complex move... If you find yourself on your right hand, you can use a back-pass to get onto your left hand, and then if you like, use a return to go double-handed... If you're on the left hand, you can use a man-spin to get onto the right... And once you're ready you can throw in a yo-yo or a basket, or whatever you can remember.

Often when I'm dancing to especially fast music, or when I'm talking with my partner I'll be using these simple moves most of the time. (And the thing is, if you smile, and make it fun, the girls don't even realise you've just done the same move three times in a row! )

[LMC]

(And the thing is, if you smile, and make it fun, the girls don't even realise you've just done the same move three times in a row! )

Yes we do, but if you smile and make it fun, we just don't care

[Beowulf]

F-class routines, for example, should never be done to any music recorded before the eighties. B-class are OK in most situtations, but you should never mix them with Victor-Eiffel-rated routines if dancing with a blonde or a redhead

mY BrAIn HuRTs nOw..

[Chef]

You have already been given really good advice from the previous posters but here are some things that helped me.

I wrote each move from the routine down on an index card along with as good a description as I could manage. Each week I would take my pack of cards, give them a shuffle and pick out 4 moves. I would then work out how to sort the hands out so that I knew when I needed to get from one hand hold to another between moves. I would then try and dance that set of moves in that sequence alternating with the routine that had been taught that night. It did relieve my boredom and feelings of inadequacy a bit and gave me a different mental challenge each evening.

Another thing that I still do is if I see a move that I know how to do but haven’t used for a while being done by someone nearby then I put the same move into my dance in the next place where I think it will fit. Looking at other dancers even when you are standing by the side of the floor is a great way to jog your memory. My girlfriend at the time used to tear me off a strip in the car on the way home accusing me of ogling the other girls legs – the truth was that I was checking out the moves the other guys were doing AND looking at the legs.

THEN I discovered that most followers would rather be lead through 4 moves smoothly and on time than through 30 moves with me yanking their arm and being off time. So the bit of advice that I would give you is to concentrate on the HOW rather than the HOW MANY.

The last thing I would recommend that you do is to get yourself off onto a couple of jive weekenders and make sure you stay until about 3am on the Monday morning. Something magical seems to happen by immersing yourself in dance for a whole weekend and that is that you stop having to THINK about the moves. They just seem to come out of you like a stream of consciousness thing. The first part of one move gets joined to the last part of another move. You don’t know how it happened but it happened and it worked!

Trust me. Being bored with your own moves seems to plague almost every leader. Part of the price that one pays for knowing what is coming next.

Have fun.

[Beowulf]

excellent post chef. and everyone else above too..

I do try my best to FIT the moves to the music. I don't always know the track being played or I don't always have a move in my arsenal that can fit but I do at least attempt to follow the beat and the breaks when I can.

I was really worried about a thread I saw in another post Where someone said (I think it was Piglet) they danced with a lead who ended the dance with the statement "I didn't use the same move twice" or something like that.

Well at the moment when I dance I'm using every move I know.. all 8 1/2 of them as you say I think it's just a case of practice practice practice.

I missed out dancing on Tuesday because my lifts said they weren't going (then went anyway grr )so I'll think I'll walk round the corner to Jumpin Jak's tonight. So , I probably won't know a soul.. but I've recovered from my shambolic weekend and I need a good dance.

And I'll get another 4 moves to repeat ad nauseum

[Chef]

I do try my best to FIT the moves to the music. I don't always know the track being played or I don't always have a move in my arsenal that can fit but I do at least attempt to follow the beat and the breaks when I can.

If you are already trying to fit the moves to the music then you don't sound like that much of a newbie to me. There are people on the dance scene that aren't even aware that you might do that after 8 years of dancing. Seriously though it does sound as if you might be at the stage where Francks techique classes might be of interest to you (if he still runs them) since you have let on that Jumping Jaks and Milliways are at least near each other. Once you understand the structure of a peice of music and the little musical clues that let you know that a break is about to happen or about to end then you don't need to have heard the peice of music before. You can just feel when things are going to happen in the music.

so I'll think I'll walk round the corner to Jumpin Jak's tonight. So , I probably won't know a soul..

Never, ever, worry about going to a new dance venue on your own. 8 years of dancing has taught me that each new dance venue is full of really nice people that you just haven't met yet. The crowd on the dance scene are mostly gems and there are very few bad apples.

[Gadget]

I think that BeoWulf can lead, and knows some moves, but the problem is of finding enough resources to draw uppon.

Been thinking on this and the "how to recover from bad leading" thing for a while and how to get round it: a couple of excercises it may be worth doing. (besides the moves, moves, moves thing)

Select two moves that you know you can do adnaseum; in this case man-spin and Octopus. Work out how you can go from one into the other and back again without involving a return.
You now have two "combo" moves in your repertour. 8 1/2 is now 10 1/2.

Take the same two moves, and think "What if something screws up". You want to be able to get into either of these moves and use them as "disaster recovery" moves. (Once in them again, you know you have at least one way out - that combo)
The man-spin starts with a L-R hold. In order to do it, you need to get to this hold. Well, that's what you are taught anyway. Not wholey the truth - there are only really three holds you could be in other than L-R, and if you know the man-spin, then what's to stop you entering it from these?

• R-R hanshake.
  You know the movements of the man-spin. Try just stepping through it with the 'wrong' hand - almost works. Right hand low taken to your left hip, turn anti-clockwise so your back is to your partner, release the hand as you finish turning and collect. Just have to be carefull that you don't lead your partner to collide into you.
  If you catch again with the left hand, then you can go into a 'proper' man-spin. and you're back on track.
  
• )Double handed "Tramline" hold.
  You're almost there, just remember to let go of the right hand before turning your back, otherwise you get into a mighty tangle. {This advice is years in the learning }
  It dosn't really matter if your arm is not over the top of the followers; the move works the same and you can catch the same at the other end.
  
• )Double handed; Crossed hands
  You can't just turn into a man-spin from this hold without loosing one of the biggest securities - contact with your partner. This actually takes a big ammount of courage and confidence to do, but take a deep breath, push both hands down and release as you walk through the man-spin motions. Trust that your partner will be there to collect when you come out the other end.

And the octopus. Well, it's really got two bits - the lady's basket when the follower is wrapped into the lead's right and the man's basket where the leads wrap themselves in to the follower's left. So you can turn any "basket" type move into an octopus just by stepping through it and offering into a 'tramline' hold, and you can turn any 'tramline' hold into an octopus.
So to hand holds again:

• R-R Hand-shake hold
  A 'wrap' solves your problems here; pulll in towards you, then extend to your right while stepping forward to collect into your RHS. This is a very similar to the basket; offer the left hand infront and step round like the exit to the first part of the normal octopus - continue into the rest of the octopus.
  
• L-R open hold
  You've just stepped back and forgot to offer. Damn. Let's just pretend you did and walk through the move. Again, it almost works; only problem may be that the follower is not coming into your side and starts to turn like a return - you need to compensate and step up to them, then step through and offer as you pass. Then wrap yourself, and you're into the octopus.
  
• Double handed, crossed (Left above)
  Pull the right and raise the left to wrap the follower into your right hand side, then just step through like the hand-shake hold above.
  
• Double handed, crossed (Right above)
  Much harder to simply enter an octopus from here while maintaining the hands; drop the left {harder than it sounds} and go into it as the hand-shake hold above.

...
So we have two moves we are now comfortable with and know we can return to at any point in the dance, no matter what happens. This is a huge safety net. Glance arround and see what other folk are doing, try and think on the moves done in the class, what was done last week, what was that move that got a smile in the last dance, ... you can now take 'time' and think about these rather than rush and panic in a "what next!" mode.

Hope this helps

[Beowulf]

Another most excellent Gadget Post.

[straycat]

mY BrAIn HuRTs nOw..

I was a little inspired with that post - we recently took up Argentine Tango - our teachers are utterly wonderful, but just occasionally betray the fact that they've been dancing since they were six. The most recent example was when we got a talk about the music, and how style x (pre 1940s) didn't suit moves a,b and c, which weren't even invented then, as we could plainly hear by listening to the music, but music of style y suited said moves down to the ground, because it was music of the 50s, and the moves were evolved to suit that style..... You've nicely described the way my brain felt for that one. Love the music, but it's all tango to me...

[bigdjiver]

I have found that the beginners routine sometimes includes moves that do not flow naturally, in which case adopting such a routine slavishly would be a bad idea. It may help a beginner to learn two or three move sequences which flow and fit many tracks and perform regularly them as a mini-routine. Dancing these will give you time to think or spare brain capacity to have a chat or otherwise relate with partner, even if it is only to drop the pained look of deep concentration and smile. Such mini-routines are helpful to partners who are beginners too, as they get used to them.

[Yogi_Bear]

When I first started at Ceroc I also used to use index cards to write down my own descriptions of moves, and then of some of the sequences taught in classes. I took the view - I've paid for this, I want to be able to remember what I've learnt. Sometimes I look back at the cards and revive an ancient move that's no longer fashionable. But then as I began to go to weekenders and a wide variety of classes I moved onto creating Word documents to achive the same objsective.

Sequences of moves ( a better term than routines, I think) do have the advantage, for beginners, that they should flow reasonably well, without awkward hand changes or rotations, and allow time for leaders to plan their next steps while going briefly on autopilot.

After a certain time, the direction is less move-related and more "OK, this is the music, how can I interpret this, how can I give my partner the chance to do so too, what moves might be right, how can I link them, where are the breaks and changes of tempo coming....." and so on.

[robd]

Another thing that I still do is if I see a move that I know how to do but haven’t used for a while being done by someone nearby then I put the same move into my dance in the next place where I think it will fit. Looking at other dancers even when you are standing by the side of the floor is a great way to jog your memory. My girlfriend at the time used to tear me off a strip in the car on the way home accusing me of ogling the other girls legs – the truth was that I was checking out the moves the other guys were doing AND looking at the legs.

So true. And funny too.