Ceroc Report cards

[Freya]

Is dancing(MJ) a sport or an art?

I think this is the key to the whole thing: For those wanting to compete and drive forward and get formal assesments, it's a sport. For those just wanting to get better because it's nice and to progress themselves, it's an art.

Feedback in both is welcomed - but formal judging and specific rules and guidelines lend themselves more towards the 'sport' mentality, while a more relaxed "what do you think?" is the artistic temprement.
I may be bias, but I am very glad that the ethos of CerocScotland seems to be the 'artistic' one rather than a 'sporting' one

Gadget i love how you've phrased this comment!

Currently i'm being continually assessed at uni and now on placement due to the nature of my course! IT is a very stressful time and I ceroc helps me relax...ok if you've met me I'm not the most chilled out of Dancers...but when I'm dancing I can forget all about the other stuff. If Ceroc was to start handing out report cards then It would probably lose part of it appeal!

I'm still learning and enjoying doing workshops and the classes! I love it when people try new things on me and I get to have a play around with moves! feedback is an important part of learning but I'll do it on my own terms! When I want feedback or a deep look at my dancing I'll ask!

But right now any assessment I'll crumble!!!!

[ducasi]

But right now any assessment I'll crumble!!!!

So don't ask for one!

It's like learning to drive... Once you've passed your test you're done, free to go and enjoy driving as much as you want...

If you want to improve your driving there are courses you can go on... like the advanced driver's course.

And if you want to test how good a driver you are there's an advanced driving test you can do – but no-one makes you do it.

Does its existence make you less likely to want to drive? I don't think so...

But if you want to find out how good a driver you are – it's ideal.

[ginger M]

So long as it's voluntary, it's a good idea. I wouldn't like it personally, and I am wondering if the 'better' dancers at my local Ceroc venue would be happy to be judged by Ceroc teachers. Ceroc for my is a hobby, a social activity, and just a bit of fun. This could make it a all bit competitive.

[David Bailey]

OK, I've looked at the discussion on the Ozzie forum about this, and I've initiated a discussion on the MJDA forum (regarding the Jango card system) as well.

And most of the comments from these two sets of dancers seem to be either "not-bothered" or positive. There is a little hesitation and caution, but nothing like the vehemence in the discussion on this thread and on this previous thread about a card system.

The more I read about it, the more I think it'd be a Good Thing - assuming it's implemented in a positive way, of course. And, strikingly, I couldn't find any major comments from any people who've experienced both card and non-card systems; in fact, many of the comments from these people were highly positive.

So, is it just a case of fearing change?

[Twirly]

I don't have the time right now to read these, but I did have a thought on Sunday after my intermediate 2 workshop - aren't the workshops the ideal place to get this feedback? Only those who are keen to improve their dancing will invest the time and money in the workshops, and these might well be the same people who would like the feedback. The groups are smaller too.

Just a thought.

[jivecat]

OK, I've looked at the discussion on the Ozzie forum about this, and I've initiated a discussion on the MJDA forum (regarding the Jango card system) as well.

And most of the comments from these two sets of dancers seem to be either "not-bothered" or positive. There is a little hesitation and caution, but nothing like the vehemence in the discussion on this thread and on this previous thread about a card system.

The more I read about it, the more I think it'd be a Good Thing - assuming it's implemented in a positive way, of course. And, strikingly, I couldn't find any major comments from any people who've experienced both card and non-card systems; in fact, many of the comments from these people were highly positive.

So, is it just a case of fearing change?

I think the two groups of people (Jango attenders who also read the MJDA forum and the average Ceroc punter) are possibly not really comparable. In my, admittedly, very limited experience it seems to me that regular Jango attendees are somewhat more likely to be keen, motivated dance-achievement junkies than the ordinary Joe/Josephine Bloggs who turns up at a provincial week-night for a few beers and the chance to chat up a few of the opposite.

My experience of all the leaders at the Jango workshop I did was that everyone, without exception, was there to learn as much as they could, they were humble about their own shortcomings and very receptive to hearing advice; I hope the same was true of the followers. Also, the teachers were highly respected and good dance skills were highly valued. I don't think these features are to be found so strongly at an average week night so we are not comparing like with like. (Although it would be nice to see them fostered.) In other words the card system may work at Jango but it may not work elsewhere.

I think a card system would have to be voluntary, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that a card would be compulsory for people wanting to attend specialised, technically difficult workshops. If people didn't like it they have a choice between not attending or earning the card. But as long as a good number of workshops were open to all I don't think this need be an issue.

[DavidB]

Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.

[ducasi]

Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.

Where can I sign up for that job?!

[Heather]

Where can I sign up for that job?!

Well Ducasi, judging by your comment, you have already self assessed and judged yourself to be a 'good intermediate dancer' .


Heather

[LMC]

Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.

Fab idea, although I'd take some persuasion to go into uniform - I only feedback if I'm in pain or if asked.

As long as it was made clear that intermediate taxis will only give feedback if asked (or if their partner is hurting them, obviously). Otherwise people might be too scared to dance with them!

[David Bailey]

I think the two groups of people (Jango attenders who also read the MJDA forum and the average Ceroc punter) are possibly not really comparable.

Quite possibly - but what about Australia? It's in place there for the "average Ceroc punter".

(And doesn't everyone aspire to be a Jango-ite anyway? )

Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.

I think this is a good idea ("Stretch limos" - hey, I like the term, I'll keep on flogging it), but this is separate - there's a whole big issue of Proper Taxi Training / Career Progression which is best dealt with in a separate thread. Or possibly, reviving one of the many old threads dealing with this...

Whichever way you look at it, assessment is assessment, and sometimes, you'll hear things you don't want to - either in a card or from a dancer. But this is how we develop and grow in any field. If we don't know what we're doing wrong, how can we fix it?

And as of now, Ceroc UK has no assessment process at all. Which is IMO a Bad Thing.

[MartinHarper]

As long as it was made clear that intermediate taxis will only give feedback if asked (or if their partner is hurting them, obviously). Otherwise people might be too scared to dance with them!

Then they can dance with all the people who aren't intermediate taxis.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Fab idea, although I'd take some persuasion to go into uniform

Assuming you're good enough to be asked of course...

As long as it was made clear that intermediate taxis will only give feedback if asked (or if their partner is hurting them, obviously). Otherwise people might be too scared to dance with them!

Differentiating between two kinds of feedback - "ouch, you're gripping my thumb/breaking my arm" - and "your step back isn't quite parallel and do *this* with your spare arm" - I'd say everyone was qualified to give the first, and virtually nobody was qualified to give the second. I can't see that taking some intermediate dancers and putting another shirt on them would suddenly endow them with new gifts of dance judgement and exposition.

I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.

OK, David ... your idea - are you up for it?

[LMC]

Then they can dance with all the people who aren't intermediate taxis.

Whilst the intermediate taxis are stood around bored out of their tiny minds because no-one wants to dance with them

The basis of saying that stage announcements on the role of intermediate taxis might be necessary (and are definitely desirable) is that if I'm taxi-ing and run out of beginners to dance with (which happens quite quickly if there are only 3 or 4 and I've already danced with them all at least once, twice if they will let me ), then I head for people I don't recognise. And sometimes get the reaction "I'm not a beginner". It's easy to say then "I know, but I've run out of beginners and I've never danced with you, where do you normally dance etc etc blah blah blah... " And once they know that I know that they are not a beginner and won't be commenting on their dancing* they are happy to dance with me. HOWEVER, intermediate taxis would be there for anyone. So IMO, it needs to be made clear both to the taxis (stretch limos, whatever) and the punters that feedback on anything other than pain should/will not be given unless the 'punter' asks for it.

* (except I've had to on a couple of occasions for grippers/yankers and they get VERY upset - I get a much more adverse reaction than when I'm out of uniform)

[Gadget]

Why not have 'intermediate' taxi dancers? Not so much to dance with intermediates, but to give feedback. I'm sure there would be some good dancers who would do this in return for free entry.

I like the idea, but I think that the way to work it would be if there was a "booking sheet" at the front desk and names get taken/put down - more for time management than anything else. (How many people would actually "use" this service? - Would the 'intermediate-taxi' simply seek out the next person on the list, if they were already dancing, then the one after...?)

Perhaps T-shirts with "ASK ME FOR FEEDBACK" on them (nothing like being subtle )

Perhaps these taxis could take notes on what advice was given and stuff so that the next time they danced they could comment on any improvements made.

I think I would perhaps volenteer for a system like this... as long as it didn't take up too much free-style time {which is the main reason I don't want to be a Taxi}

[DavidB]

Some people already have a system whereby regular feedback on your mistakes is freely given. It is called 'marriage'.

[Donna]

Some people already have a system whereby regular feedback on your mistakes is freely given. It is called 'marriage'.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Perhaps these taxis could take notes on what advice was given and stuff so that the next time they danced they could comment on any improvements made.

I think I would perhaps volenteer for a system like this... as long as it didn't take up too much free-style time {which is the main reason I don't want to be a Taxi}

No offence, Gadget, but the people who would spend their time with a clipboard critiqueing my dancing and making notes 'for next time' - voluntarily - are, I suspect, the last people I'd want to take advice from!

[robd]

No offence, Gadget, but the people who would spend their time with a clipboard critiqueing my dancing and making notes 'for next time' - voluntarily - are, I suspect, the last people I'd want to take advice from!

Even if their notes simply read

* Remember to remove industrial size camera & carry-bag before taking the floor

?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Even if their notes simply read

* Remember to remove industrial size camera & carry-bag before taking the floor

?

If the camera and bag are better followers (and they might be...) then yes!