Ceroc Report cards

[ducasi]

All the nay-sayers, consider this...

At least Ash thinks it would be useful for her. Therefore it is a good idea for her.

Assuming she's not from a planet all of her own, presumably there are other people who would benefit from a report card.

[ducasi]

If we were given this sort of assessment would we not all start to dance in a similar way, would our styles all start to become uniform as we were being assessed on similar criteria.

It's not about assessing style – it's about assessing technique. Things like connection, lead, floorcraft, musicality...

As we've seen on the "let's talk about style..." it's been hard enough to pin down what "style" actually means without trying to assess it.

[jive_me]

I fail to see how a report card system would make everyone into clones of each other. But then if that is the way it was seen then maybe it could be used for people who aspire to become things like demonstrators (yes I knooooow that if you're a demo you have your own style, but I'm talking about how when you show a move you have to do it in a certain way...) etc. Just another point to the debate really

xXx

[David Franklin]

At least Ash thinks it would be useful for her. Therefore it is a good idea for her.

I'm afraid I don't really see how that follows. More precisely, I'm prepared to stipulate that a report that accurately describes the areas that need improvement, and how such improvement should be achieved, would be useful. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume such a report will be forthcoming.

In a case like this, the devil is in the details. Even something so simple as what will be assessed isn't clear; you said:

It's not about assessing style

While the original poster specifically said (emphasis mine):

personally, like many others I am sure, am always thinking about my dancing and how I could improve it-style, technique etc.

I don't think the "report card" is a bad idea because it's against "the MJ ethos" as some people have been suggesting. What I do think is that kind of feedback is basically what you'd expect to get from a private lesson, and that is the best way of providing it. (A separate argument is that it should be easier and cheaper to get private lessons. It's the norm in most other dances, but private lessons are still very unusual inside Ceroc I think).

Going back again to the original post:

Alot of the time when I am dancing I will follow a move and think "I wonder if I am following that wrong"; usually it is the same moves so perhaps I am right in thinking so.

If you are having problems following particular moves, if you don't explain that to your teacher, thenyou are pretty much relying on luck if you hope to have the problems pinpointed during an assessment, or even a private lesson. There are 600? Ceroc moves, and you'd probably only do 30 or so in a dance. Far better to specifically tell your teacher "I'm having difficulties following X, would you go through it with me and see if I'm doing anything wrong?"

[bigdjiver]

Yankers: say "Ow!" grimace, smile then carry valiantly on. If partner tries to discuss just say that it is an old Rigby / Football / "dancing with yankers" injury, don't worry about it.

If you are worried about your technique / style then getting someone to video you will tell you something. If you worry about what you see then the first step might be to pick a "fault" and watch someone else doing the same thing, and learn from them. The second might be to ask partner to practise that thing and give advice, and, if that fails, the third might be to go to a teacher.

In all probability the one thing that the video will tell you is that partner was enjoying themselves. The one thing that I will tell you is that partner worrying unduly about how well they are dancing is a big No-No.

[El Salsero Gringo]

All the nay-sayers, consider this...

At least Ash thinks it would be useful for her. Therefore it is a good idea for her.

There's nothing stopping Ash from taking an A6 index card, and marking some categories on it - presumably the ones she feels are worth grading. Then she can ask for a dance with a teacher, and get a A, B, C or whatever in one category at a time.

But the minute something "official" turns up, printed with a Ceroc logo on it, and issued by 'head office', that's something different entirely.

Assuming she's not from a planet all of her own, presumably there are other people who would benefit from a report card.

Are the people who would benefit from it, the people that one would like to benefit from it, and most importantly - the people who suffer for its absence the most - are they the ones who would use it? I'm pretty certain not.

[jive_me]

A report card isn't just grading things A, B, C though...it's about receiving constructive criticism on things. I think to grade your dancing could actually be a rather negative thing to do...but asking for criticism would be positive to those who wanted it.

xXx

[LMC]

Fantastic rant DJ

I've already addressed all the issues in your post, but since they obviously got mired in the general confusion I'm going to repeat myself anyway:

expense of private lessons & workshops

If someone wants something bad enough, they will find a way to pay for it. One private lesson/workshop a month is ample information to try to take in for someone who is presumably dancing socially. What was wrong with my birthday money suggestion?

And presumably she doesn't want to go up and pester every dancer for constructive feedback on her technique ... etc

BZZZZT - exaggeration. See previous posts of mine (and others) for solutions.

So, she thought a "report card", presumably similar in style to the ones people get at gyms, schools and other areas of work, could help her in this admirable effort of self-assessment and improvement, and started this thread.

Fine if she wants to do one herself. However, her initial query of "wouldn't it be good if you could get...?" suggests that she wants something official - which would be Evil. IMO. Someone (ducasi I think) asked Ash for clarification of whether she was after an official system.

But other than that, at the moment, I can't see what the Ceroc system can do to help her and people like her improve. And I've not heard any other constructive and realistic suggestions so far; perhaps they were drowned out in the vast chorus of disapproval.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the comment I made earlier about help BEING THERE for those who ASK FOR IT. Together with other suggestions that have helped me obtain that help in the past. The brutal truth is that you have to make some effort to get what you want.

And, just because it's been nagging me:

Much as it pains me not to give ESG the opportunity to wonder once more why someone reasonably intelligent can be so stupid

I give up, I've been trying to deconstruct this sentence for ages, can someone explain it to me?

Nope

Finally:

Anyway! Wouldn't it be nice if we could get dance report cards, just like being back at school, (just like being back at school? no thanks, no WAY - LMC) that way we would know what to do to improve. .... snip ... wouldn't it be cool? .... snip .... What do you all think?

She wanted opinions. She's got them.

Sorry Ash, and please don't take it personally: I think you're lovely and although I disagree with your opinion, I would absolutely defend your right to stick with it. As DJ said earlier, you've raised a great debate.

[MartinHarper]

Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?

Private lessons seem quite daunting. There are tricky decisions like who to ask, what to ask for, how long, where, alone or with a partner, if with a partner, who, etc. In a way, there's too much choice, and it's slightly paralysing. The relatively high cost adds to that. Also, it's not always clear who is offering what. Whereas I can look at websites for info on regular MJ classes, the marketplace seems less clear for privates.

[killingtime]

Assuming she's not from a planet all of her own, presumably there are other people who would benefit from a report card.

I think people might well benefit from feedback, in whatever form, but at the same time that grading of people could really put people off. When I started Ceroc I was really nervous but the welcoming atmosphere really helped make me feel comfortable. I found it difficult to freestyle with my four moves and had a big bunch of new stuff to worry about. I'm not sure someone telling me I'd get a report card on my progress would have helped me. I'd also wonder if a bad report could have knocked what confidence I had of my dancing ability and stopped me coming back entirely (I only got big headed in my second month ).

[ducasi]

I think people might well benefit from feedback, in whatever form, but at the same time that grading of people could really put people off. When I started Ceroc I was really nervous but the welcoming atmosphere really helped make me feel comfortable. I found it difficult to freestyle with my four moves and had a big bunch of new stuff to worry about. I'm not sure someone telling me I'd get a report card on my progress would have helped me. I'd also wonder if a bad report could have knocked what confidence I had of my dancing ability and stopped me coming back entirely (I only got big headed in my second month ).

For the same reason that schools don't give report cards to primary 1 pupils after a month of attendance, I wouldn't expect Ceroc to do the same...

I think you'll also find that the report cards you get in primary school differ from those you get in secondary school.

[David Franklin]

Private lessons seem quite daunting. There are tricky decisions like who to ask, what to ask for, how long, where, alone or with a partner, if with a partner, who, etc. In a way, there's too much choice, and it's slightly paralysing. The relatively high cost adds to that. Also, it's not always clear who is offering what. Whereas I can look at websites for info on regular MJ classes, the marketplace seems less clear for privates.

What if there were a number of 15 minute "slots" available for booking a mini-private with your regular MJ teacher? That sorts out who and where, and cutting the duration to 15 minutes hopefully reduces the cost. In practical terms I think you'd want to provide your own partner in most instances.

As for your other questions, if, say, Ceroc got behind this like they do their workshops, then there would be a webpage explaining most of it, although some stuff would probably depend on specifics that you'd discuss with the teacher.

I think as much as anything, there's a perception that "only really serious dancers do privates". But if Ceroc encouraged everyone to "try to get one private lesson a year", (or whatever), I think people would be a lot less intimidated by the concept.

The biggest problem I see with this is that Ceroc tends to promote the view that "all our teachers are experts and can help you with any dance problem", so you might get them trying to teach areas they don't really understand well themselves. Ideally they'd just own up to it and recommend a different teacher.

[Twirly]

I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other on the report card system, but one way to get around the cost of private lessons could be to club together with 2-3 friends and have a mini-workshop. Less expensive, less intimidating. Just a thought.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other on the report card system, but one way to get around the cost of private lessons could be to club together with 2-3 friends and have a mini-workshop. Less expensive, less intimidating. Just a thought.

I expect most teachers would charge more for teaching more than one person (or a couple) at once. Particularly if you want a workshop - they'd have to do all the advance work involved in preparing one.

[Yliander]

ARRGHHH!!!!! For crying out loud

Report cards/assessment are not Evil!! They are just different which does not make them wrong!!!

Those on here that have been putting a case forward for report cards/assessment are not talking about a mega you must get all A’s or we won’t let you on the dance floor!!!! Merely a simple technique/skill assessment to help guide the development of those that choose it.

In my experience as may choose it as don’t and no one looks down on those that have or haven’t done them.

*throws up hands in despair and goes in search of very large drink*

[El Salsero Gringo]

Report cards/assessment are not Evil!! They are just different which does not make them wrong!!!

Those on here that have been putting a case forward for report cards/assessment are not talking about a mega you must get all A’s or we won’t let you on the dance floor!!!!

I don't think anyone who's against the idea thinks you are saying that.

Merely a simple technique/skill assessment to help guide the development of those that choose it.

...and whose mere existence we feel will dissuade many from taking up Ceroc. Which does make them evil, in fact. It's good that you don't feel that way - but many do, and we want them to come to Ceroc and enjoy themselves sufficiently that we are ready to forgo the advantages of having a formal assessment system for those that want it.

In my experience as may choose it as don’t and no one looks down on those that have or haven’t done them.

Your experience can't speak for those who were put off from Ceroc by the atmosphere that assessments create. Which is why it makes for a great topic of discussion.

[Yliander]

Your experience can't speak for those who were put off from Ceroc by the atmosphere that assessments create.

How do you know what sort of atmosphere they create?!?! I have experienced Ceroc with and with out the opportunity for assessment - so feel pretty confiedent in what I am talking about - both have their pros and cons and as a teacher didn't notice a difference in retention rates with or with out it.

I don't think anyone who's against the idea thinks you are saying that....and whose mere existence we feel will dissuade many from taking up Ceroc. Which does make them evil, in fact. .... *snip* .... Which is why it makes for a great topic of discussion.

discussion is good - but saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.

*dives into her drink*

[El Salsero Gringo]

How do you know what sort of atmosphere they create?!?! I have experienced Ceroc with and with out the opportunity for assessment - so feel pretty confiedent in what I am talking about - both have their pros and cons and as a teacher didn't notice a difference in retention rates with or with out it.

discussion is good - but saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.

*dives into her drink*

La la la ... not listening ... la la la ... evil evil evil ...

[El Salsero Gringo]

I have experienced Ceroc with and with out the opportunity for assessment - so feel pretty confiedent in what I am talking about - both have their pros and cons

Just out of curiosity then, what do *you* think are the cons?

saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.

Of course, that's me to a tee - a small minded bigot.

[LMC]

discussion is good - but saying that something is evil is not discussion it is merely small minded bigotry.

[sixe=1]It's also a light-hearted exaggeration[/size]

And inconsistent with the philosophy that Evil is Good....

Is the culture of "must achieve to be worthy" as strong in Australia as it is in the UK? If an assessment system was available in Ceroc here I suspect that there would be a significant minority, if not a majority, that did get obsessed with such a system. Of course, I don't *know* this - but introducing any quantitative 'measure' of ability in any activity leads to greater competitiveness - and this is not always positive.

Sport and leisure are fantastic for bringing people together, and in my work for a charity, I have seen how many thousands of people have had their lives changed by sports and arts and the improved self-esteem/discipline that participation can bring. Unfortunately, healthy pride in achievements (your own or your team's) can tip over into feelings of superiority and contempt for those who haven't achieved so much in quantitative terms. {MODE=Bleeding obvious}The World Cup being a case in point.{/MODE}

Without any pieces of paper to say so, I know I'm a better dancer than I was this time last year, thanks to so many people who have helped me along the way (even if some of them are Evil and think there should be some kind of official assessment). If you are only competing with yourself, then no formal assessment system is necessary. It might make it easier for you to measure your progress - but it's not necessary.

The only measure I'm interested in is whether people enjoy dancing with me.