Ceroc Report cards

[LMC]

Much as it pains me not to give ESG the opportunity to wonder once more why someone reasonably intelligent can be so stupid , I'm sat on the opposition side of the table too (no, really? )

The teacher on a regular Ceroc night is there for everyone. The taxis are also there for anyone who needs help - "especially" the beginners, but not just the beginners. If you ask a vague and general question like "How am I doing?" then you can expect a vague and general answer. A better question might be "What do you think I could do to really improve my dancing?" or any more specific question.

Most MJ-ers just want to dance and don't really want "proper" feedback, more reassurance that they are doing well and deserve to give themselves a big round of applause \_/. If you're not getting the feedback you want from someone on the dance floor, it could be that they don't realise that you're really wanting to focus on some aspect of your dancing - or could simply be that they don't want to spend the time with you right that minute, they want to be dancing. That doesn't mean that they won't ever help you. I've had a good deal of success with asking people for future favours - "I need some help/"proper" feedback, please may I have 5 minutes of your time and when is a good time to do that?".

Even if there was a formal assessment system, people would still be needing to ask others for assistance on an individual level with concepts they find difficult - even if they are covered in class, many won't listen, won't understand or are simply slower to grasp some things than others.

I really still can't see how a formal assessment system would improve on what's already available to anyone who has the guts to ask for it.

EDIT due to cross-post: DF for clarification

EDIT again: add to last bit "or the money to pay for it." I've only ever had one private lesson, but it was priceless to me in terms of improving my dancing. Ash, I know you're a student and on a tight budget, but if you know what you specifically want to focus on then perhaps someone will give you the money for your birthday/Christmas

[DavidB]

The feedback I would give to just about anyone is:
- Ladies - follow the hand
- Men - Remember the lady is trying to follow the hand.


Mini Private Lessons

As has been said, the best way to get feedback is a private lesson from a good teacher. However the cost per hour is prohibitive for what is simply a hobby to most dancers.

Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?

[jive_me]

Depending on the teacher some private lessons can do more harm than good. I don't think 15 minutes would be that constructive...but then maybe...? If it's one of your regular teachers though I don't think personally I'd feel comfortable handing over more money...I'd feel better just pulling them to one side and asking a few questions? IMO that's what the teacher's there for on a dance night...

xXx

[David Franklin]

Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?

Possibly; I'm not sure how much you can usefully cover in 15 minutes - sure you can do a heck of a lot if it all goes well, but it only takes the teacher to get stuck trying to explain an issue and all the time gets eaten up pretty quickly.

And of course the other question is whether it's worth it to the teacher. Seems it would be a lot more work to do four mini-lessons than one full lesson.

[DavidB]

If it's one of your regular teachers though I don't think personally I'd feel comfortable handing over more money...I'd feel better just pulling them to one side and asking a few questions? IMO that's what the teacher's there for on a dance night...

Sorry I forgot. Teachers are a charitable organisation.

[LMC]

To me, the aim of a private lesson is really to improve understanding - the improvement in the actual dancing takes time to build to its full potential (i.e. some improvement should hopefully be immediately obvious, but it takes longer than an hour to build muscle memory or the necessary physical fitness to reach your full improvement potential).

I think 15 minutes could work if you want something *really* specific and know that the teacher is the right one for you to learn/understand that. It would be a bit pointless for learning more moves or for really complicated stuff, but the basics of many technical concepts could be understood in that time - it's always the easiest things to understand which seem to take a lifetime to master

F'rinstance, I 'grasped' the idea of frame within about 6 minutes (2 tracks) - even though my frame was still worse than rubbish, the spaghetti arms improved and I had a far better understanding of I was supposed to be doing; an hour's private lesson covered follow the hand, 'spotlighting' and frame and tension (which is only 20 minutes on each: once again, I 'got' the idea of all of them, it was - and is still - just a case of practice/refinement/adding to the basics). The point is not to prove that I'm particularly clever (I'm naturally quite unco-ordinated with a poor brain-to-body connection at times) but to prove that if *I* can get basic concepts in a short space of time, anyone can. Once you've 'got' what you're supposed to be doing, then it can be refined/improved in freestyle and with 5 minutes input here and there from willing experts.

[jive_me]

Sorry I forgot. Teachers are a charitable organisation.

I don't expect anyone I teach to have to pay me if they want some extra advice or feedback.

[DavidB]

I don't expect anyone I teach to have to pay me if they want some extra advice or feedback.

If I teach a class or a private lesson, then I will always make myself available to answer questions/problems leading on from that class. Even if the class was weeks or months ago.
But I don't expect people to try to obtain private lessons for free. That is not fair on the people who do pay for lessons. Neither is it fair on me, or anyone who wants to dance with me.

There are a number of dance teachers for whom the income they make from dancing is a significant part of their livelihood. It makes me mad when people then expect them to work for nothing.

[jive_me]

I agree...as a student...I totally agree...

I was talking about on a regular class night...15 minutes after isn't a problem to me, I'm certainly not going to hold my hand out and ask for money. But if it was outside of class time ie. on a non-regular night then yeah...but then 15 minutes wouldn't be worth it...

xXx

[LMC]

If I teach a class or a private lesson, then I will always make myself available to answer questions/problems leading on from that class. Even if the class was weeks or months ago.

(much appreciated it is too )

Perhaps I should clarify my 'asking for a favour' comment made earlier - if I do ask someone (whether a teacher or a dancer that I admire) for 5 minutes of their time to help me with something, I do literally mean 5 minutes (max) - and it would usually be something practical rather than theoretical i.e. along the lines of please will you dance with me and let me know how I'm doing with 'x' rather than please will you sit out and explain the exact theory behind something-very-complicated. And asking 'in advance' for a convenient time for them to help me means that they have the opportunity to avoid me or tell me "not tonight, another time" if I'm pushing my luck

Agree that expecting a significant amount of anyone's time (say more than two tracks) in an evening is rude. And unless I know someone *very* well, I wouldn't ask them for help that often either (5 minutes every time you see someone might be OTT too).

I rarely ask anyone to teach me a move. I go to enough moves classes.

[killingtime]

I think the view is that it's a dance, it's for fun, so what if you missed the lead on one particular move etc.

I think feedback is a good idea, but how to implement it? Recently managed to find myself a couple of pleasant blokes who will tell me if I've done something wrong which has been amazing for my dancing.

That's an interesting view from me. I'd find it annoying, as a follower, for the lead to stop the dance and explain what I should have been doing rather than what I did. I don't mind, as a lead, stopping the dance and showing someone a move (except once where her comments really annoyed me) if they wanted me to. I also don't think it is my place to point out things in a social dance... I'd be happy to pay attention and try and provide feedback if someone asks though. I don't mind skipping just dancing to a song to do that unless it started becoming really frequent.

I've also decided that I should really express positive comments. Sometimes I think "Wow, she did that nicely" or whatever but I'll never actually mention that and I think I should even if I'm not in feedback mode.

[jive_me]

That's an interesting view from me. I'd find it annoying, as a follower, for the lead to stop the dance and explain what I should have been doing rather than what I did. I don't mind, as a lead, stopping the dance and showing someone a move (except once where her comments really annoyed me) if they wanted me to. I also don't think it is my place to point out things in a social dance... I'd be happy to pay attention and try and provide feedback if someone asks though. I don't mind skipping just dancing to a song to do that unless it started becoming really frequent.

I've also decided that I should really express positive comments. Sometimes I think "Wow, she did that nicely" or whatever but I'll never actually mention that and I think I should even if I'm not in feedback mode.

I don't ask everyone...but some people I just feel comfortable saying 'oh what did I do wrong there, just didn't feel right'. And then sometimes someone will say something and they don't even need to stop the dance (depending on the move I suppose) just a 'you need to be standing more this way' etc. Hmmm, hard to explain. Either way sometimes I feel it's constructive to hear these things...but again, it's not like these guys are stopping every single dance to go through stuff...just on the odd occassion.

xXx

[robd]

Can you imagine? "Donkey-boy works hard at his first moves, which have improved significantly this term. He must learn not to tread on his partners feet though. Effort: B+ Overall: C-"

My most vivid memory of a school report was the variety of ways (across 10 or 11 subjects) that the different teachers managed to say I was 'Basically Lazy'.

I think that observation wouldn't be too far amiss on my dance card

[El Salsero Gringo]

He must learn not to tread on his partners feet though. Effort: B+ Overall: C-"

Height A+




Dress sense F-

Me, or you?

[robd]

It's exceptionally hard to get any sort of feedback (or is this just me?). 99% of the time someone asks me for a dance, they dance, they say thank you and then they move on.

Quickly, I need to go home tonight

I very, very rarely offer unsolicited feedback to followers (I'll occasionally advise a beginner to put her hand on my shoulder for the first move turn-out) and hardly ever get asked to give feedback. I do recall clearly (helped by the fact she was very attractive ) a lady at Southport asking me to give her advice on how to improve her dancing. I said I couldn't really help as all I could tell her was what worked well when she was dancing with me and that I had no background in teaching technique. I advised her to do a 'private' or two (and my inbuilt sense of smut means I still can't think of that phrase without sniggering) and to go to workshops, etc or ask her teachers rather than asking random leaders on the dancefloor.

[Trousers]

As one of the initial 'throaters' as DJ put it I can't see any real benefit from this suggestion other than to pander to individuals vanity.

If some one is getting better they will be asked to dance more surely this is the 'proof of the pudding'?

Is that too simplistic a notion?

I'll go and stand near ESG by the big wall with bullet holes in now then and see what happens!

[David Bailey]

OK, let's review where we are for a second.

JS(A) is an early intermediate dancer, who really wants to get some feedback so she can improve her technique. She's (I assume) an impoverished student who really can't afford a series of private lessons at £30 - £50 an hour, and I'd assume can't afford a series of workshops at, similarly, £30+ a time.

And presumably she doesn't want to go up and pester every dancer for constructive feedback on her technique, because A/ She probably won't get an honest reply, B/ She probably won't get an objective reply and C/ She hasn't got her notebook ready on the dance floor.

So, she thought a "report card", presumably similar in style to the ones people get at gyms, schools and other areas of work, could help her in this admirable effort of self-assessment and improvement, and started this thread.

2,000 people then immediately chorused "No! It is the Work Of The Devil! To even suggest an assessment system has damned you, forever!", or something along those lines - I may exaggerate a little.

A report card might help - it might not, but it might; again, I go back to the fact that a mild form of assessment works in Australia, and that it hasn't either irredeemably warped all MJ dancers there, neither has it made them nasty, competitive and negative. At least, not compared to us lot.

But other than that, at the moment, I can't see what the Ceroc system can do to help her and people like her improve. And I've not heard any other constructive and realistic suggestions so far; perhaps they were drowned out in the vast chorus of disapproval.

Seriously, people - there's no need to post a long-winded "Me too" just to say "Me too" - it gives a distinct herd impression. And as someone who's been on the receiving end of a lot of this plenty of times, it's not pleasant. Some restraint on occasion helps the debate develop, OK?

And, just because it's been nagging me:

Much as it pains me not to give ESG the opportunity to wonder once more why someone reasonably intelligent can be so stupid

I give up, I've been trying to deconstruct this sentence for ages, can someone explain it to me?

[Sparkles]

I may exaggerate a little.

[Trousers]

A report card might help - it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might, but it might not, but it might;

Yawn


If we were given this sort of assessment would we not all start to dance in a similar way, would our styles all start to become uniform as we were being assessed on similar criteria.

Personally I love it when a girl says "I love your style" you've like hit that girls hot spots (for the dance at least) and I would hate to think I was just another sausage out of the machine. I decided on my anti sausage stategy about 4 months into dancing why would I want to be packaged up as certain grade banger now?

[Gadget]

Would there be a market for mini private lessons - say 15 minutes for £10?

The most constructive personal feedback from a teacher I have had has been one dance and a breif conversation. (Poss for the duration of another track.) (See my thread on Improving my dancing)

Recently a one second feedback while dancing with a teacher has been enough to give me something to think on/ work on/ improve. {A whistle, a gesture pointing to her eyes and mine. Interpretation: I'm loosing my focus and not dancing with my partner, I should be watching them more and maintaining a bit more eye contact... and not looking at my feet }

I think that a two track/15min 'micro lesson' is a great idea: dance with the person for one track {or watch them dance} and give them feedback from that dance during the second.
Like all teaching - it's what you do outside of the lesson that makes the difference; the teacher just points you in the right direction.