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Thread: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Should we give half a million illegal immigrants an amnesty ? The immigration ministers hasn’t refused the idea

    The Italians have given five of them and the Spanish six but that its argued just encourages more

    However lets face it we are never going to track them down

    Make them legal at least they pay a stamp and contribute to my pension

    Or should we hunt them all down and deport them at any cost ?

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Should we give half a million illegal immigrants an amnesty ? The immigration ministers hasn’t refused the idea

    The Italians have given five of them and the Spanish six but that its argued just encourages more

    However lets face it we are never going to track them down

    Make them legal at least they pay a stamp and contribute to my pension

    Or should we hunt them all down and deport them at any cost ?
    The thing that hardly anyone wants to acknowledge is that we depend on illegal immigrants to do a lot of the very lowest-paid least attractive jobs.

    I think we should liberalise our immmigration policy and make it much easier for people to work legally in the UK. I don't think an amnesty would do much good; it would be better to change the rules so that an amnesty would no longer be needed.

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Not immigration AGAIN.

    The UK is purely physically too small to take in "everyone". But once people are here, let them work. As ESG says, much of our economy depends on them.

    I can't be bothered with any more/further ranting on this topic, it's just come up too often.

    EDIT: OK, a search on a few related terms came up with only two threads. Guess what, no-one "won" the argument on either of these either. There are no easy answers and discussion of people's different opinions gets boringly inflammatory at times. Here's the links, I had my say on both those threads, I'm not playing any more on this one.

    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=6281

    http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=7405
    Last edited by LMC; 14th-June-2006 at 02:55 PM.

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    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Is that amnesty inclusive of those illegal immigrants who are bank robbers, rapists, terrorists,pimps, child pornographers and drug dealers?

    eg. as per some of those who have been imprisoned and recently released on the instruction of the Home Office. ( and that's only the ones we have heard about!)

    If so then the answer is NO



    Heather

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Is that amnesty inclusive of those illegal immigrants who are bank robbers, rapists, terrorists,pimps, child pornographers and drug dealers?

    eg. as per some of those who have been imprisoned and recently released on the instruction of the Home Office. ( and that's only the ones we have heard about!)

    If so then the answer is NO



    Heather
    Good swerve there, to connect illegal immigrants with criminals. Like it.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Is that amnesty inclusive of those illegal immigrants who are bank robbers, rapists, terrorists,pimps, child pornographers and drug dealers?
    Of course not, I imagine there'll be a specific check box on the amnesty form, saying "Are you a bank robber / rapist / terrorist / pimp / child pornographer / drug dealer?", and anyone who ticks "Yes" will definitely be given a stern look.

    Seriously, if someone is a bank robber / rapist / terrorist / pimp / child pornographer / drug dealer, does it matter whether they're also a foreigner? In fact, why are the two connected? It's like saying "should we be concerned about the flood of left-handed B/R/T/P/CP/DDs?"

    As for amnesties - I dunno, but we have knife and gun amnesties occasionally, so a "illegal alien" amnesty might be worth trying. Maybe we should have an amnesty on Home Office ministers as well, they're the ones we should be annoyed at IMO.

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    Not immigration AGAIN.


    I can't be bothered with any more/further ranting on this topic, it's just come up too often.
    So do the illegal immigrants according to the Daily Mail a million a day

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC

    There are no easy answers and discussion of people's different opinions gets boringly inflammatory at times. I'm not playing any more on this one.

    Please play

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Is that amnesty inclusive of those illegal immigrants who are bank robbers, rapists, terrorists,pimps, child pornographers and drug dealers?
    Well do we shoot them of the roof tops or give them McDonalds

    In the circumstances I think the food was the best option

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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Good swerve there, to connect illegal immigrants with criminals. Like it.
    No need to look for a connection. Being in this country ILLEGALLY is a crime, therefore it makes illegal immigrants criminals.

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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Good swerve there, to connect illegal immigrants with criminals. Like it.
    Did I miss something here?

    Heather didn't appear to me to say that all illegal immigrants were criminals (although the word "illegal" in their description might suggest that they had already done at least one illegal, if not crimnal thing).

    I thought that Heather was saying that those people that had committed and been tried and jailed for the serious offences that she listed should not be considered to be suitable people to be offered citizenship within this country.

    People who are already citizens who committ such serious crimes we have no choice about and we have to spend considerable time and resources to manage (not always succesfully) the risk to law abiding people that they present.

    I do not see how Heathers post links all illegal immigrants to those dangerous criminals that should not be offered citizenship.

    Could you show me how I have read Heathers post so wrongly?

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Did I miss something here?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    Could you show me how I have read Heathers post so wrongly?
    Yes.

    Because there are two separate issues - crime, and immigration. The knee-jerk connection - in a thread about immigration NOT crime - is unwarranted. It's a pretty straightforward politician's trick, and works best when it tickles the way we already feel about something, our 'prejudices' - to use that word in a non-disparaging way.

    To put it as bluntly as I can - she's (perhaps unwittingly) recruiting a fear of serious crime ('do we want more rapists and murderers on the streets?' 'No!') to colour the way you feel about the original question - immigration.

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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

    Because there are two separate issues - crime, and immigration. The knee-jerk connection - in a thread about immigration NOT crime - is unwarranted. It's a pretty straightforward politician's trick, and works best when it tickles the way we already feel about something, our 'prejudices' - to use that word in a non-disparaging way.

    To put it as bluntly as I can - she's (perhaps unwittingly) recruiting a fear of serious crime ('do we want more rapists and murderers on the streets?' 'No!') to colour the way you feel about the original question - immigration.
    OK. I understand what you are saying (I think) that it is using our fear of crime to increase our fear of illegal immigrants. Is it a bit like saying "we should send those men that are rapists to prison" uses peoples abhorance of rape to increase fear of men? Not sure I can see it myself, but I will take your word for it.

    I just read Heathers post as to mean that she wasn't ruling out accepting illegal immigrants in this country but that it should not be a complete blanket acceptance (an amnesty - if I truly understand the meaning of that word) and that those people that had already proved themselves to be a serious danger to law abiding people should not be offered citizenship here unlike the vast majority of illegal immigrants here who are quietly going about trying to make a better life for themselves.

    I never once got the idea from Heathers post that she was asserting that ALL illegal immigrants were dangerous criminals.

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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Is that amnesty inclusive of those illegal immigrants who are bank robbers, rapists, terrorists,pimps, child pornographers and drug dealers?
    I believe the idea is that the amnesty means that we wouldn't imprison such people for being illegal immigrants, but would rather imprison them for robbing banks, raping, terrorising, pornographing children, and dealing drugs.

    You may recall we had a gun amnesty a while back, which worked similarly. If you handed in your illegally owned gun to the police, the police wouldn't prosecute for illegally owning the gun, but they could still prosecute you for whatever else they felt like. You couldn't get rid of a speeding ticket by giving a gun to the police, nor could you get kill someone with a gun and then hand the gun in during the amnesty.

    I note that the cost of marriage has been increasing for some time, and it is now more expensive to marry someone than to simply buy an illegal immigrant sex slave at your local airport. How would the proposed amnesty affect these important British economies?

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    OK. I understand what you are saying (I think) that it is using our fear of crime to increase our fear of illegal immigrants. Is it a bit like saying "we should send those men that are rapists to prison" uses peoples abhorance of rape to increase fear of men? Not sure I can see it myself, but I will take your word for it.
    It would be more like saying "should we send those {black/Chinese/Asian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever} <insert your="" (least="" favourite="" ethnic="" minority=""> rapists to prison?" to which the answer is yes, regardless of the group identity you associate with them. So why include the descriptor at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    I just read Heathers post as to mean that she wasn't ruling out accepting illegal immigrants in this country but that it should not be a complete blanket acceptance (an amnesty - if I truly understand the meaning of that word) and that those people that had already proved themselves to be a serious danger to law abiding people should not be offered citizenship here unlike the vast majority of illegal immigrants here who are quietly going about trying to make a better life for themselves.

    I never once got the idea from Heathers post that she was asserting that ALL illegal immigrants were dangerous criminals.
    No she didn't assert that - and the overall meaning of what she said is just as you put it. But it's such a blindingly obvious point (No, Heather, of course that amnesty isn't inclusive of anyone convicted of a serious offence, and I don't think for an instant that you actually thought it might) that one naturally looks a little deeper to see how and why the point was made.</insert>

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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    It would be more like saying "should we send those {black/Chinese/Asian/Jewish/Muslim/whatever} <insert your="" (least="" favourite="" ethnic="" minority=""> rapists to prison?" to which the answer is yes, regardless of the group identity you associate with them. So why include the descriptor at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox
    From http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/s...9&postcount=29
    Seriously, there were 2 African nurses on night duty who coughed and sneezed over the beds and never once used the antibac hand gel between patients. Unbelievable! I couldn't wait to get out of there.
    My emphasis above.

    In light of this thread and the other recent one about 'Criticism on the forum' or somesuch I wonder if, say, Stewart38 had made the same comment/observation re African nurses it would have met with a similar lack of reaction? I recall some debate a while back (can't find the link) where it got similarly heated about someone mentioning that the people who mugged him/his friends were black which is why I was surprised SF's comment went past. Yes, I know I could have commented but I tend not to comment on these types of thread. Others regularly do.

    Robert

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd
    My emphasis above.

    In light of this thread and the other recent one about 'Criticism on the forum' or somesuch I wonder if, say, Stewart38 had made the same comment/observation re African nurses it would have met with a similar lack of reaction? I recall some debate a while back (can't find the link) where it got similarly heated about someone mentioning that the people who mugged him/his friends were black which is why I was surprised SF's comment went past. Yes, I know I could have commented but I tend not to comment on these types of thread. Others regularly do.

    Robert
    I was the one who made the fuss about the mugging comment, and I probably would have said something about SF's post too, if I'd noticed it at the time.

    These things tend to get blown up into bigger 'confrontations' than the original subject of the thread and I'm to blame as much as anyone for that; partly that's because it's hard to tell the difference between someone who replies when they do understand what you're saying but just disagree (fair enough) and when they don't (appear to) understand - which leads to lots of to-ing and fro-ing.

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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by robd
    I wonder if, say, Stewart38 had made the same comment/observation re African nurses it would have met with a similar lack of reaction?
    I'd guess it's more about the thread it was posted in. You can get away with all kinds of inadvertantly racist comments if you post in threads that people who care about inadvertantly racist comments don't read.

    ----

    Regarding physical limitations on immigration: UK has an area of 244,820 km². If we took in everyone, that'd give us a population density of 24,507 people/km². By comparison, Macau has a population density of 17,684 people/km², while Bangladesh has a population density of 1,002 people/km².

    Our current population density is just 243 people/km². Other European countries have a higher density: The Netherlands has a population density of 395 people/km². To get to the same population density as the Netherlands, we would need to admit 30-40 million immigrants. Home Office estimate is 300,000-500,000 illegal immigrants currently residing in the UK. This suggests that the physical size of the UK is not a factor we need to seriously consider when discussing illegal immigration.

    Source: Wikipedia (because it's easy and unreliable)

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Going back to the original question, this BBC article says:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beeb
    The Institute for Public Policy Research, a think tank close to ministers, has said an amnesty to 500,000 people living illegally in the UK could raise £1bn in taxes.
    And this one seems to imply that the recent Spanish amnesty (involving 700,000 people) worked - and having 700,000 people paying tax seems like a good plan to me, I pay enought bloody tax as it is. And I'm certainly not paying vastly more tax to deport / imprison / harass them. Blimey, can you imagine how many billions it'd cost?

    So from a completely self-centered viewpoint, yes, I support an amnesty. And yes, OK, they can pay for Stewart38's pension as well, if he insists...

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    { facts and figures }
    Yes, but to be fair it's not just about physically fitting them all in - there are serious questions about infrastructure, both physical, social and cultural. So no country advocates total freedom of movement, and there is a legitimate and rational debate about balancing the benefits and costs of immigration.

    And who knows, at some point we may even see such a debate. But I won't hold my breath.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Source: Wikipedia (because it's easy and unreliable)

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    Registered User Trousers's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    But it's such a blindingly obvious point (No, Heather, of course that amnesty isn't inclusive of anyone convicted of a serious offence, and I don't think for an instant that you actually thought it might) that one naturally looks a little deeper to see how and why the point was made.
    Think you were just looking for a fight on that initial point there ESG.
    I thought exactly the same as Heather when I started to read the thread. From the media (some of it quite trust worthy too) I am informed that some of the large number (unknown) of illegally resident non UK Nationals in this country are taking part in further criminal activities. Some of this smaller number have been arrested and charged and some have been rightly incarcerated. Heather I think was trying to draw a line under what could be considered (for this thread) as 'law abiding' (to the extent that they can) illegal immigrants. These we would have to assume are the people that do all the nasty jobs we don't want to if the typecasting is correct and these would be the group that I would hope any such residency amnesty would be aimed at. The original post had no demarcation for those taking part in further criminal activity and therefore she was justified in highlighting the issue as she saw it.

    Heathers point does not infer all illegally resident people are performing further criminal activities other than those they obviously have to to remain resident here. She also did not say that all the criminals must be illegal immigrants.

    In the quote above you make clear an assumption of your own about convicted illegal immigrants which was not clear before which now seems to indicate that you do in fact agree with Heathers original point (semantics permitting).

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    These things tend to get blown up into bigger 'confrontations' than the original subject of the thread and I'm to blame as much as anyone for that;
    I've never read anything as nearly correct as that before!

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Should we give an amnesty to all illegal immigrants ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trousers
    Think you were just looking for a fight on that initial point there ESG.
    I thought my first post on that particular sub-topic was pretty restrained actually. If you don't agree with what I said then, fair enough, though. But I wouldn't trust any of the media - at all - when it comes to statistics on crime, immigration and so on. Everyone has a different axe to grind. Except me, of course.

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