Amateur cabarets?

[Chef]

Performance classes.

I have taken part in a number of these performance classes and I thought that I would tell you what I, as a participant got out of them (since I have heard some of what the audience don’t get out of them).

So what do I think I learnt.

Learning new dance styles (lindy, blues, Charleston, latin styling, even Jango) that took me out of my Ceroc only comfort zone. In short – wider dance exposure.

They taught me that when the dance fits the music that it was much more interesting and fun for me. Performance classes were my first introduction to musicality.

I had to learn choreographic sequences and lock key events into places in the music like starts of bars, breaks and accent points. The routine was usually learnt as a sequence of moves for a verse and a different sequence for the chorus and that the intro and outro had their own sequences. As a result I started to be aware of these elements of structure within the music for the first time.

The very act of performing to an audience meant that I had to be aware of where I was in relation to the audience and my partner. Before then my dancing would just have all my moves going in more or less random directions with both myself and my partner chasing each other around the room. In doing performances I understood that the shape of the move was important both in the way that it would be presented to an audience and for making it easier for my partner and I to remain dancing together.

Performing in a large group meant that my partner and I had to stay on time with the music so our dance did not look out of place with the other participants and more importantly so we didn’t hit the other dancers. Performing in close proximity with other dancers in a performance just ups the ante to stay on time and in sequence. This made me have a greater attention to detail and a willingness to check, double check and keep working until it went from nearly right to just right.

The deadline of having to give a performance in front of my peers and not wanting to disgrace myself helped give me a focus that I enjoyed.

So that is what I got out of doing performance classes. It is just my own personal view. Sadly, from comments here on the forum, it seems that the observer gets a much lesser deal.

Although I know nearly nothing about dance I do feel that performance classes have helped me understand something and provided some insight into the things I have yet to learn.

[David Bailey]

Re: insults.

You don't think

it was Sh1te

is insulting?

Yeah, OK, fair cop. But if that's all... blimey, anyone reading this would think there was a torrent of personal abuse directed at every one of the performers, casting doubts on their ancestry, gender and for all I know shoe size.

The reaction seems, well, disproportionate.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Re: insults.

Yeah, OK, fair cop.

Did you really say "sh1te"? Bad boy! That's a bit dismissive of the work that people put into it, even if you didn't like the results.

[LMC]

What he said ^^^ - dismissive is exactly the word I would use.

To be fair to DJ, I believe that it was WB who said it was *****, sorry sh1ite.

I confess that I would rather have had more dancing time. But as I said in my original SP feedback post to those who took part - I would have been way too chicken.

[David Franklin]

blimey, anyone reading this would think there was a torrent of personal abuse directed at every one of the performers, casting doubts on their ancestry, gender and for all I know shoe size.

The reaction seems, well, disproportionate.

Of course, the reason for the size of the reaction could simply be that a lot of people disagree with you.

As far as Gus and DavidB's comments go, I will tell you that many top level teachers and competitors have told me they've given up on the forum because of negative comments about perfomances (from people who have no idea what it's like). Now you have a perfect right to say "if they put themselves up there, they should accept the criticism", but historically, the result of that has been their absence from the forum. Personally, I think that's a shame.

[WittyBird]

To be fair to DJ, I believe that it was WB who said it was *****, sorry sh1ite.

.

Yep it was me that said it was 'sh1te'. I wasn't referring to any1 individual though, I was talking about the whole thing. I also said it took guts to get up there and do it.

I thought too many people took part and it looked messy, like I also said it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. It's not as though I said ' him in the black hat was the worst dancer I have ever seen in my life'.

I was talking about the choreography not the dancers, although I did say I didn't see anyone participating to be smiling.

I wasn't saying it to be nasty or mean, I thought people appreciated a bit of honesty.

Life would be boring if we all liked the same things. You can't please all the people all of the time, get over it.

[stewart38]

My saddest experience of this forum is see opinions of rather poor dancers being taken as authoratative just because it appears in 'print'. It would be lovely to take some of these experts through a coaching session and allow them to see their own flaws. I see it time and time again even at our local clubs where the ones who make most noise are those who need to listen more. When was the last time your heard someone like DavidB, Viktor, Kate etc doing someone else down? Say less ... listen more.

Now going to shut my big gob and try to learn how to dance propely one of these days

you got anyone in mind ?

I won't take it away from people who did do it, but sorry it was Sh1te.

I’ve done two of these before at Camber (where they seem to have stopped them) and I thought Southport was the best.

I also want to do the two large group dances which names I forget. Don’t get them now.

[Chef]

I was talking about the choreography not the dancers, although I did say I didn't see anyone participating to be smiling.

Believe me Witty - I am not about to have a go at you. The above did make me laugh out loud but only because I am only too aware to the near "rabbit in the headlights" feeling that you get when actually taking part in these things.

You have the moves (and in the Charleston almost all of the people had never done it before), in the right sequence (oh heck what comes next), in time with the music (I'm late, no, I'm early - slow down a little) and in the right place (no, I should be on the left of my partner right now).

If you can do all that AND smile then

You will need more than 3 hours to take a dance style you are not familiar with, learn the steps, sequence, timing and staging and get it to a point where you are so comfortable that you have enough presence of mind to actually smile as well.

On top of all that you have HUNDREDS of eyes looking at you who are all waiting for Anton and Erin and Robert and Deborah to do their stuff and you are thinking "why did I think this was a good idea".

Smile as well?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Of course, the reason for the size of the reaction could simply be that a lot of people disagree with you.

As far as Gus and DavidB's comments go, I will tell you that many top level teachers and competitors have told me they've given up on the forum because of negative comments about perfomances (from people who have no idea what it's like). Now you have a perfect right to say "if they put themselves up there, they should accept the criticism", but historically, the result of that has been their absence from the forum.

Well I think that is silly. If they're top-level, then what care they what others say? On the other hand, if the people on this forum (who were in the audience for these top level performances) didn't like what they saw then I'd say their opinion counts for the most - who else are they performing to?

Why should anyone have to "know what it's like" before they're allowed to say what they thought? Does one have to have been on stage for the RSC before commenting on a play? Or played for the Vienna Philharmonic before reporting on a concert?

[stewart38]

Believe me Witty - I am not about to have a go at you.

Best not as she will –ve rep you and there was me walking the streets looking for stamps today in this weather

[David Franklin]

Well I think that is silly. If they're top-level, then what care they what others say?

Problem is, it doesn't really matter whether you think it's silly. Because it is one of the main reasons teachers give me for not getting involved in the forum.

[CJ]

If you can't take the heat step out of the fire.

I think, FWIW, they could stand the heat, hence they entered the kitchen.

I'm not sure thay asked, or deserved, to be set on fire.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Problem is, it doesn't really matter whether you think it's silly. Because it is one of the main reasons teachers give me for not getting involved in the forum.

Ok, teachers, or performers? To be honest I've not noticed very much criticism of performance at all on the Forum - mostly it's congratulations and how much we all loved every second of it. And it's about performance that you wrote three or four posts ago.

It is indeed a pity that anyone is put off from posting merely out of the fear that their every word might not receive the universal acclaim they think it deserves. But wouldn't this Forum be an even poorer place if it were just somwhere that teachers and 'names' checked in once a week to have their bums wiped and powdered, and to pick up quotes to decorate their promotional websites?

[CJ]

The reaction seems, well, disproportionate.

50 people, 4 hrs each in workshop time. Adrenalin, nerves, energy, time spent preparing before hand outwith the workshops, openmindedness to try something new and be part of something bigger than the sum of the parts:

"sh1te"

disproprtionate reactions.... discuss.

[Whitebeard]

To be fair to DJ, I believe that it was WB who said it was *****, sorry sh1ite.

Not this WB.

[David Franklin]

Ok, teachers, or performers?

Both - though pretty much all the teachers I'm thinking of perform as well.

To be honest I've not noticed very much criticism of performance at all on the Forum;

I won't requote Wittybird so soon after the last time, but if you haven't noticed criticism of performance you haven't been paying attention.

It is indeed a pity that anyone is put off from posting merely out of the fear that their every word might not receive the universal acclaim they think it deserves. But wouldn't this Forum be an even poorer place if it were just somwhere that teachers and performers checked in once a week to have their bums wiped and powdered and to pick up quotes to decorate their promotional websites?

Of course, that's not what I suggested, but you do like your strawmen, don't you? I note there is a big difference between not mollycoddling professionals and saying the routine they choreographed was "sh1te".

Given the numbers, this forum should be a really great place for discussing dance. In practice, I find there are many other website where I learn more. Even though they have fewer members, or are talking about a dance I don't do so much of what they say doesn't apply. And one factor is that they actually get lots of people who not only know what they're talking about, but have experience in teaching it. This forum doesn't. I have told you one reason why.

[Dreadful Scathe]

My saddest experience of this forum* is to see people being too scared to post their opinions about dancing, because they're worried they'll get jumped on.

Depends on whos doing the jumping and what they're wearing

er...anyway - I agree with everyone. I think some of the comments aimed at DJ are rather harsh - he clearly didnt like the cabaret. Ive not liked cabarets Ive been IN, never mind watched (not yours Lindsay the Cats one all fell apart at the end).

I think its okay to be critical of something at an event you paid for that didnt work for you. Its not as if DJ went on and on about it, its the rest of you who came along, painted legs on his criticism, gave it a false moustache and pointed it toward Fleet Street (without so much as a "by your leave").

I wouldnt be too quick to suggest that critical people should look at themselves and their own abilities first - that would put paid to the millions of armchair referees shouting 'that was NEVER a penalty' in the next few weeks...I may not know much about art but I know what I like etc...

theres a point in there somewhere....I promise to jump on anyone who finds it

[WittyBird]

I think its okay to be critical of something at an event you paid for that didnt work for you. Its not as if DJ went on and on about it, its the rest of you who came along, painted legs on his criticism, gave it a false moustache and pointed it toward Fleet Street (without so much as a "by your leave").

Very well said

[El Salsero Gringo]

I won't requote Wittybird so soon after the last time, but if you haven't noticed criticism of performance you haven't been paying attention.

Let me see if I've got this straight then: your argument goes that between 6:45 yesterday afternoon and earlier today - a coterie of advanced teachers and performers all called you up to say they were quaking in their boots at the thought of WB dropping a one-word comment about a workshop-cum-performance by amateurs and have suddenly decided to boycot this Forum on the strength of it?

Come off it. You're claiming that teachers and performers (now we're narrowing down to those that do both, I note) have come in for criticism of their performances in the past. I don't remember such criticisms. Please point them out to me.

Of course, that's not what I suggested, but you do like your strawmen, don't you? I note there is a big difference between not mollycoddling professionals and saying the routine they choreographed was "sh1te".

I'd expect the professionals involved to be able to take a comment like "sh1te" a hell of a lot better than the amateur lesser dancers who were performing in it. The problem with saying it was "sh1te" is that it misses the point about what the performance was for. That's not up to the choreographers.

Given the numbers, this forum should be a really great place for discussing dance.

Why should it? It should be for discussing what the people who are here want to discuss.

In practice, I find there are many other website where I learn more. Even though they have fewer members, or are talking about a dance I don't do so much of what they say doesn't apply. And one factor is that they actually get lots of people who not only know what they're talking about, but have experience in teaching it. This forum doesn't. I have told you one reason why.

I speak for no-one but myself when I say I'm quite happy with this forum not being fullof postings not only of the good-and-great but of everyone else too - if it means it's a fun place to post where I can talk with the friends that I make going dancing. There's a place for rec.arts.dance - and that's not necessarily here.

[David Franklin]

Let me see if I've got this straight then: your argument goes that between 6:45 yesterday afternoon and earlier today - a coterie of advanced teachers and performers all called you up to say they were quaking in their boots at the thought of WB dropping a one-word comment about a workshop-cum-performance by amateurs and have suddenly decided to boycot this Forum on the strength of it?

Second time in two posts you've put words in my mouth. Enough.