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Thread: Grace period for new starters?

  1. #21
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    I'm really not convinced newcomers here get given a hard time for their opinions, even if they go against the status quo. What can happen is they find themselves greatly outnumbered by dissenters, and they get frustrated that they can't convince them otherwise. But you know what, that's life! I think it would be worse if we were all PMing each other saying "poor NewbyDancer, hasn't got a clue! Still, let's not tell him he's talking rubbish, we wouldn't want to be unfriendly." Not to mention the knock on effect when Newby2 comes and joins in, having decided from the lack of dissent that most people agree with NewbyDancer.

    It would be a problem if we didn't explain why we disagree, or pay a reasonable amount of respect to a newcomer's arguments. If the attitude to newcomers is "you wouldn't say that if you really understood dance", then the group opinions fossilise and you end up with rec.arts.dance. But I don't think that actually happens here too often.

  2. #22
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    My guess is it tells them that rude behaviour isn't accepted here.
    So, being rude to newcomers tells people that being rude is unacceptable?

  3. #23
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    If the attitude to newcomers is "you wouldn't say that if you really understood dance", then the group opinions fossilise and you end up with rec.arts.dance. But I don't think that actually happens here too often.
    Can I respectfully remind you of that next time you quote rec.arts.dance at me?

  4. #24
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Slightly different slant on David's idea.

    The best Bouncers do not go wading into bar brawls, skillfully beating people up and drag them outside so they can be barred and possibly arrested. The Best Bouncers mix with the crowd and keep things running smoothly. If someone's beginnning to get out of hand, a gentle word then, is a lot more effective than a roundhouse kick in half an hour's time. But.... it takes a lot of skill to be that good. Plus there's the matter of authority. Looking at a lot of the take it outside threads, I noticed warning signs several posts before it got moved. Even then, there are people trying to calm things down, but sadly they were ignored. My favourite quote on the whole Fourm is from Clive Long
    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Long
    Enough already.

    I retract everything I said or wrote. Ever.
    .

    I think a grace period is a good idea. On a different Forums posters are often advised to just lurk for a month or so to get the feel of the place.

    I think it would also help if the moderators were to quietly pm newbies with "You know, you're going a bit far. Or you might want to take some time to re-think this". The newbies can of choose not to and the kindly Forumites will act accoridngly.

    As to why it matters. The newbies we offend may have the Hoy Grail (You step back on the left foot because). And because simply it matters. People have punched me in the face for a variety of reasons (well tried to anyway). I've never needed to beat them senseless.

    Be Well,
    Christopher

  5. #25
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Can I respectfully remind you of that next time you quote rec.arts.dance at me?
    You can do whatever you like. However the rec.arts.dance FAQ predates the "collapse" of rec.arts.dance[*], and I don't think I've met anyone who's read it without thinking it had a lot of useful information from people who knew what they were talking about. It seems amazing now, but back in the 90s, people actually talked about dance on r.a.d.

    [*] I think various factors contributed to the demise. Many many usenet forums haven't handled the transition to a WWW internet too well. One of the highlights of rec.arts.dance were the postings from top professionals (Robert/Deborah, Lance, Gary etc.), but over time I think it stopped feeling "private", and then many of the dance professionals stopped giving quite such candid posts. Certainly the "my understanding of dance is perfect and you are all idiots" personalities on rec.arts.dance didn't help. But what really killed rec.arts.dance was the 2000 US election and subsequent events. For several years a "OT: Political" thread completely dominated the forum and any attempts to talk dance went by the wayside. By the end of it, the only regulars still standing were the ones who whose method of "argument" resembled saturation bombing. They, um, don't handle newbies well.

  6. #26
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Can I respectfully..
    Sorry, I didn't read any more, I was too busy

    Seriously, the best answer to rudeness is always politeness - that doesn't mean you have to be a pushover, you can still be firm with courtesy. Giving a newbie a larger benefit-of-the-doubt allowance (they may genuinely be unaware of newsgroup conventions, or may genuinely be poor at expressing themselves) just seems like good sense to me.

    If nothing else, if they're genuinely wastes of space, you're giving them enough rope to hand themselves with...

    (And - this is the good bit - you get a nice warm glow from holding the moral high ground, so you can feel all smug and superior. Which is nice. )

  7. #27
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Personally, I think that we are generally very welcoming to almost every person who joins the forum.

    Most of the ones that we aren't, IMHO, totally deserve the type of welcome that they get. There are a couple of people I can think of who did get more flak than they deserved, but they are in the minority. I can think of a couple who didn't get anywhere near the amound of flak that they deserved.....

  8. #28
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Seriously, the best answer to rudeness is always politeness
    ...nah, humour, surely?
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Giving a newbie a larger benefit-of-the-doubt allowance (they may genuinely be unaware of newsgroup conventions, or may genuinely be poor at expressing themselves) just seems like good sense to me.
    Do you really really think we don't do this already, by common consent? (We're still making those allowances for some members who've been on the Forum longer than I have.)

    Perhaps one of the worst things for someone making their first few postings (particularly if it's more than just the 'I'm new - where should I dance this weekend?') would be to be ignored. If someone makes a firm statement about something, the most flattering response is to give it serious consideration and put some thought into a reply. Even (especially) if you disagree with what they said.

  9. #29
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    If someone makes a firm statement about something, the most flattering response is to give it serious consideration and put some thought into a reply. Even (especially) if you disagree with what they said.
    I think that this is true. Depending on certain things....

    One forumite who joined recently, may have had interesting things to say. And I may have disagreed with some things. And even may have agreed with others.

    However I never really actually got around to reading the points that he was making. I objected so much to the way he was making the points, that what he was actually saying was lost.

    In terms of the 'pub' conversation, I'd equate him to the loud, drunk, boorish lout, who you'd just wish would go away, and have no interest in actually listening to.

  10. #30
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    I think that this is true. Depending on certain things....

    One forumite who joined recently, may have had interesting things to say. And I may have disagreed with some things. And even may have agreed with others.

    However I never really actually got around to reading the points that he was making. I objected so much to the way he was making the points, that what he was actually saying was lost.
    Assuming this is who I think it is, I'd say even though probably 80% of the forum disagreed with him, they were pretty polite about doing so. One person, while polite, rubbed him up the wrong way, and that was when things escalated. But it was only when his direct insults started that he started getting flak from all sides.

    A couple of points from this. The person who initially wound him up? To be honest, they often wind me up as well. So I don't believe it was a case of "have a go at the newbie" at all - just someone's normal posting style. And as far as "treat rudeness with politeness", I did see people try to politely disagree with him, and they got as much, if not more abuse, than anyone else.

    If we're using the bouncer analogy, I feel compelled to paraphrase from Roadhouse:
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Swayze
    If someone comes up to you with an attitude, be nice ... until the time comes, to not be nice.
    Like Trampy, I think the guy in question had some interesting points. But in the end, the sheer volume of abuse he sent towards anyone who disagreed with him outweighed everythng else. I can't say I was sorry to see him go.

  11. #31
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    If we're using the bouncer analogy, I feel compelled to paraphrase from Roadhouse:
    Now that was a trashy movie - I saw it on TV again recently, I was amazed how much sex was in it, I remembered it as mainly an action flick

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Do you really really think we don't do this already, by common consent?
    Yes, I really do think that some people (not "we" but "some of we" ) don't do this - otherwise I wouldn't have started this thread, I'd be talking about the weather, or this weekend's dancing or something...

  12. #32
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Ah Roadhouse

    Remember Swayze gets rid of the hothead bouncer and tries to teach the remaining bouncers to solve problems before they get started.

    Personally I feel if someone visibly in authority had pmed during the thread w're all tap-dancing around (I'm probably thinking of the wrong one anyway ) then this could possibly have been avoided. A simple "Look this is just the way they are. Take a few days and chill out. Then come back and make your points. The Forum isn't going anywhere".

    But there is a time "to not be nice" When the guy pulls a knife in Roadhouse the rules change.

    People who just want to flame and troll should just get "bad posted" and kicked out.

    People who have a different opinion however .

    Be Well,
    Christopher

  13. #33
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Now that was a trashy movie - I saw it on TV again recently, I was amazed how much sex was in it, I remembered it as mainly an action flick
    Sex? I thought that was just outtake footage they'd stolen from Dirty Dancing! Sam Elliot was cool, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    Remember Swayze gets rid of the hothead bouncer and tries to teach the remaining bouncers to solve problems before they get started.
    I had not forgotten (it's not the easiest diatribe to quote on a family forum).

    Personally I feel if someone visibly in authority had pmed during the thread w're all tap-dancing around (I'm probably thinking of the wrong one anyway ) then this could possibly have been avoided. A simple "Look this is just the way they are. Take a few days and chill out. Then come back and make your points. The Forum isn't going anywhere".
    Possibly, and I would actually agree with you that it would have been a good idea. But other people did actually say (paraphrased): "look, insults aren't the way to win arguments", and it didn't exactly help. So if it had made a difference, it would only have been because the moderators can back it up with "... or else".

    People who just want to flame and troll should just get "bad posted" and kicked out.
    "A certain DJ" was unique; in many of his posts I couldn't tell if he really meant what he said or was being intentionally outrageous to get a reaction (i.e. trolling in the pure sense). I still can't decide, to be honest; anyone can have a bad attitude, but the way he kept complaining about behaviour in other posters that was far more obvious in his own postings seemed too exact to be anything but an intentional attempt to wind people up.

  14. #34
    Registered User Zuhal's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    My perspective.

    I used to post but now I just lurk. Why do I not post?

    1. It is quite difficult to be pithy, cogent, amusing and relevant.
    2. I have examples of posts made by me (non face) recieve no response or are misunderstood (See point 1)
    3. Same point raised later by a face is feted and discussed. There is a natural conclusion
    4. The atmosphere is much more friendly than certain Salsa forum but understanding the mores is still an art. Perfecting that art would be timeconsuming.


    I appreciate those that take so much time to analyse and explain stuff. Their process of learning Tango for example.

    I would like to contribute more but to be honest I do NOT feel welcome.

    Zuhal

  15. #35
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    I had not forgotten (it's not the easiest diatribe to quote on a family forum).
    True enough . I mentioned it mainly for the benefit of people who haven't seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Possibly, and I would actually agree with you that it would have been a good idea. But other people did actually say (paraphrased): "look, insults aren't the way to win arguments", and it didn't exactly help. So if it had made a difference, it would only have been because the moderators can back it up with "... or else (my emphasis)".
    Cool - that's actually my point. Look at Taz on the tango thread. She gets called a bloke, her friends are insulted, but she still hangs in there being reaonable (and having seen Taz in the Real World when someone's upset WittyBird I have to applaud her on both counts ). But still the carnage continued. So I agree, there does need to be an authority to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    I still can't decide, to be honest;
    Fair enough. If the Forum as a whole is going "this is unreasonable" then I'd argue the person needs to reconsider the way they're expressing themselves. I once got a post sent back to me by a moderator on another Forum along the lines of "I know exacly what you mean and that's fine. But, you can also read it this way which will cause ructions". I hadn't seen the other side, but on doing so happily withdrew the post. If someone tells the Moderators to "get lost, I'll post how I want to" - well then they're pretty clearly stating their intentions.

    The other thing that's bothered me for quiite a while now is I wonder how many useful things simply aren't posted. While I agree that Forumites are generally friendly, I'd add the clause "as long as you agree with everyone else". Look at the Intermediate threads. Gadget and I started about a third of them this year - surely there's more people with intermediate queries / thoughts / suggestions? Likewise the recent push becomes a shove thread - the contributors are all quite able to take knocks and basicially be told they're wrong. I wonder if more people would contribute if it was perhaps a bit more gentle? The thread I started asking teachers and taxis basically what behaviour did they want / not want in class, I thought was a gift. It was on the Beginners thread, an easy chance to say "please don't rush ahead or chat while I'm giving instructions" etc. It got a single (very well thought out ) reply.

    Be Well,
    Christopher
    EDIT = cross post. Ok it's interesting that Zuhal seems to agree with the sentiments of my last paragraph.

  16. #36
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Hey Zuhal, thanks for posting this... Interesting use of the concept of a "face". I wonder what makes a face a face. Am I a face?

    I've found that sometimes my carefully thought-out posts go ignored until the ideas in it are re-stated by someone else.

    Sometimes it's simply in how you express yourself, rather than who you are.

    I'd like everyone apart from flamers, trollers and spammers to feel welcome.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  17. #37
    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    Personally, I think that we are very welcoming to every person who joins the forum.

    mmmmmmmmm




  18. #38
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch
    mmmmmmmmm



    ........eventually

  19. #39
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Yes, I really do think that some people (not "we" but "some of we" ) don't do this ...
    Then the problem is with these "some people". What can we do to fix this problem?

    Saying that "we" should all be more tolerant and welcoming has resulted in a load of posts all saying much the same thing: "we are!!"

    Is it time for the mods to get heavy? Is it time to name and shame?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  20. #40
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuhal
    My perspective.

    I used to post but now I just lurk. Why do I not post?
    {snip}
    I would like to contribute more but to be honest I do NOT feel welcome.

    Zuhal
    Bad that you don't feel welcome. Good that you said so though.

    As Ducasi asks, what makes a 'face' btw? Anyone can get well-known just by posting a lot (I should know.)

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