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Thread: Grace period for new starters?

  1. #1
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Grace period for new starters?

    A couple of recent new starters (examples here and here) have had, shall we say, a rocky ride with their first posts.

    I'm not going to defend these people, nor am I taking any position on the arguments.

    However, both these posters are, I think, people who have interesting knowledge, and who could make a contribution to the forum under some circumstances, given some smoothing out of rough edges. For example, I for one never knew where the name "Gotan" came from.

    But, they never really got the opportunity to smooth out, and their welcome was less-than-civil. Again, not defending them, just stating what I thought at the time.

    So, what do people think of a "grace" period for new starters, either official or not?

    For example, something like this: for the first 100 posts, a poster could not be given negative rep, and should be given more lattitude in terms of public responses to controversial or angry posts? And the first response to any first post should always start with "Welcome to the forum"?

    I would rather we be too welcoming, and occasionally have to bite our collective tongues, than be unfriendly, and put off other lurkers from posting.

    Comments?

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    *bites tongue*
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    Comments?
    So........

    If someone comes up to you in a pub and punches you in the face, what do you do? Smile sweetly and say 'Thank you' I think not.

    I could ramble for ages, but I will leave that to someone with more time, inclination and patience.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    OK, to answer the question...

    While I agree with the sentiment, I don't think the no-negative rep idea would be
    1. possible within the software
    2. advisable due to the risk of abuse
    3. likely to make a damn bit of a difference.

    And if you can't -ve rep them, there's even a possibility they may get even more flames as people seek an outlet for their hostility.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    B.O.G.O.F. fletch's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    I seem to remember I had a rocky start, but we won't go there



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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by WittyBird
    So........

    If someone comes up to you in a pub and punches you in the face, what do you do? Smile sweetly and say 'Thank you'


    But of course - doesn't everyone?

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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    People bring what they bring...

    Some have a "hello, I'm thinking of going to X venue, this is my first post, what's all this about" vibe.

    Some have a "in reply to certain stuff, up the lot of you, you're all tossers" vibe

    Some bring a "I've joined to make a point, so deal with it!!!!!!!!!!!" vibe

    Some have a "I've been dancing ages but only recently been told about a bunch of loonies that hang together here.." thing going on

    Others a "I've only been dancing 2 weeks but already know everything" vibe.

    How we, as a forum, deals with that is generally amicably. I haven't witnessed any bullying (I think, although Fletch did get it tough from a couple of people) and would hope that I would step in if I saw it happening.

    How we, as individuals, deal with it varies more. But then, that's the joy of the forum.

    Some newbies have irked me, most not. We each join, learn the civilities and subtleties of this particular forum and slowly put our slippers under the table...

    Rules for newbies is nonsense. I'm not saying it's like a bike club and you have to "earn" your colours. (DO NOT ask about red wings!!! ) We each have to fit in before we can stretch the box

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    People bring what they bring...{snip loads of good stuff }
    Have some rep for being a clever CJ today

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by WittyBird
    So........

    If someone comes up to you in a pub and punches you in the face, what do you do? Smile sweetly and say 'Thank you' I think not.
    Well, good thing I'm not a Christian then

    I'm familiar with the "Forum as really big pub conversation" analogy - Gadget and I originated it for the FAQ. But that's not a correct analogy. I mean, it's not as if anyone's issuing death threats, they're just expressing a point of view.

    A more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch
    I seem to remember I had a rocky start, but we won't go there
    I was actually thinking of you too - you started off as a reprobate and got your fair share of abuse, but you stuck with it. I'm not sure how many others would have such strength of character.

    What we say online is kept there - forever. And negative comments put people off contributing, keep them lurking, and reduce the forum to a bunch of people talking only to their close friends, posting only in-jokes, thanking each other for dances last week, and voting on interminable "Who's going to XXX this weekend" polls...

    I'm not saying we should have a particular system - I suggested some ideas, but I don't know what an answer is. I'm saying I get an occasional sense of "ganging up on the newbie" reading some threads.

    (Hey, I managed to last 1 day of posts without creating controversy! Yay me! )

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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    A more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?
    He will soon learn.
    I'm not talking about beating him up, but about telling him, in no uncertain terms, that his behaviour is not acceptable here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    A more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?
    My guess is it tells them that rude behaviour isn't accepted here.

    (You've been back posting for over a day now: can you please make a point? These people who are controversial for controversy's sake!!! )
    Last edited by CJ; 6th-June-2006 at 05:43 PM.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    He will soon learn.
    And we will not know whether he had a valid point of view.

    And because it's the internet and not a pub, any other newcomer reading that in 6 months time will also get the impression that this is not a friendly crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    My guess is it tells them that rude behaviour isn't accepted here.
    And it also tells everyone else that the forum is less welcoming than it could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    (You've been back posting for over a day now: can you please make a point?
    Why change the habits of 5,025 posts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    These people who are controversial for controversy's sake!!! )
    Seriously, I'm trying to make a point about group behaviour, and how it appears to those outside the group. I was in lurker mode at the time, and I think that gave me a sense of detachment which maybe wasn't shared by most regular posters.

    Of course, I could be wrong

  12. #12
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    And because it's the internet and not a pub, any other newcomer reading that in 6 months time will also get the impression that this is not a friendly crowd.
    It's a friendly crowd - if you're a friend. If you want to give the impression that everyone just loves everyone else here I say that would be false and misleading.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    And it also tells everyone else that the forum is less welcoming than it could be.
    Sorry always to be the one to challenge the assumptions that people sneakily hide in their rhetoric, but can you explain *why* the forum has to be as welcoming as it can be? I'd rather it was as interesting as it can be. If that means a few brick-bats fly backwards and forwards then so much the better.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    IA more relevant analogy would be if a stranger comes up to you when you're chatting with some mates, he interrupts your conversation and loudly disagrees with you. The stranger may well be rude, he may be drunk, or he may not understand the conventions of pub discussion, or he may have a valid point to make. If you all then tell him to Foxtrot Oscarm surround him, glower at him and yell to the bartender to take his drink away, what sort of impression of the group is given to onlookers?
    To be honest, if someone behaved as jj did at a pub, I think he'd get a lot tougher reception than he recieved here. I've certainly seen people asked to leave for saying a lot less.

    What we say online is kept there - forever. And negative comments put people off contributing, keep them lurking, and reduce the forum to a bunch of people talking only to their close friends, posting only in-jokes, thanking each other for dances last week, and voting on interminable "Who's going to XXX this weekend" polls...
    In the case of the teacher, you might have a point, in that some people seemed to "jump on him" from the word go. I suspect there was a lot of stuff going on "behind the scenes" there though.

    But in the case of the DJing thread, I think people actually did accommodate differing points of view - they might have disagreed, but they were reasonably polite about it. It was only when the comments about "ignorant and anal posters" started that things got messy. I don't have a problem if a lurker deduces we frown on such behaviour.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Sorry always to be the one to challenge the assumptions that people sneakily hide in their rhetoric, but can you explain *why* the forum has to be as welcoming as it can be?
    For the same reason that Ceroc classes and venues have to be as welcoming as they can be - to continue, to be viable, and ideally to grow. No-one is forced to join Ceroc, and no-one is forced to post - they need to be invited and welcomed and encouraged.

    There's a critical mass of contributors which are needed to make any forum valuable - why else would all us Southern Nancies post on the Scotland forum, except for the fact that it's got a lot of interesting comments on it?

    And if new posters are put off, the quality of posts IMO is reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I'd rather it was as interesting as it can be. If that means a few brick-bats fly backwards and forwards then so much the better.
    Hmmm, you think this forum has been particularly interesting recently then?

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Hmmm, you think this forum has been particularly interesting recently then?
    It was for the last month or so, but over the last 24 hours seems to have gone downhill rapid

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    For the same reason that Ceroc classes and venues have to be as welcoming as they can be - to continue, to be viable, and ideally to grow. No-one is forced to join Ceroc, and no-one is forced to post - they need to be invited and welcomed and encouraged.
    When people come to a ceroc class, we welcome and encourage them to do the beginners class, dance with the teacher and the taxi dancers, make a few friends, and come back the next week. We don't tolerate them riding in on a Harley, spray painting the walls the floor and the DJ, attempting to disembowel the teacher with a machete or setting fire to the building ("I'm new to Ceroc and this is my first night - I didn't realise that it wouldn't be appreciated.") If they tried it, they'd probably be asked to leave.

    Giving some kind of amnesty to anyone new to say whatever the hell they like is like the education policy of the progressive 1970's education authorities. ("Allow children to discover numbers by themselves... spelling doesn't matter... there's no such thing as 'wrong', only 'differently right').

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ
    And if new posters are put off, the quality of posts IMO is reduced.
    Supposition of the purest kind. Perhaps we do more to discourage flame-baiters, trollers and spammers by occasionally taking a robust line when newcomers burst in, all guns blazing? And in any case, it's not like it doesn't ever go down well: I got my first 40 rep points for taking to task one particularly tiresome posting from a Forum regular.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    We don't tolerate them ... attempting to disembowel the teacher with a machete
    Well, surely it depends if the teacher is trying to teach the Archie Spin or Tunnel? I mean, machete-attacking would be the least I'd expect under those circumstances - come on, be reasonable.

    And what's wrong with Harleys?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Giving some kind of amnesty to anyone new to say whatever the hell they like is like the education policy of the progressive 1970's education authorities. ("Allow children to discover numbers by themselves... spelling doesn't matter... there's no such thing as 'wrong', only 'differently right').
    Hardly my position - I just think a structured welcoming process combined with a "welcoming etiquette" wouldn't kill us. For example, even if you disagree violently with the poster, I think you should say "Firstly, welcome to the forum" as part of the reply to someone's first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Supposition of the purest kind.
    Perhaps we do more to discourage flame-baiters, trollers and spammers by occasionally taking a robust line when newcomers burst in, all guns blazing?
    Hmmm... there's no easy way to prove what does and doesn't work in terms of encouraging newbies versus discouraging spammers. Even with full log access, I don't think there's any way to judge. Like all marketing, 50% works, 50% is wasted - but you can't tell which is which.

    Personally, I could live with a few more spammers (which the lovely moderators will soon sort out anyway) if it made life more interesting by encouraging more debate. A bit of turning-the-other-cheek for a post or two just to provide the benefit of the doubt is a fairly low price to pay, if the reward is in creating more debate.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Hardly my position - I just think a structured welcoming process combined with a "welcoming etiquette" wouldn't kill us. For example, even if you disagree violently with the poster, I think you should say "Firstly, welcome to the forum" as part of the reply to someone's first post.
    Something like this you mean?

    "Firstly, welcome to the Forum. Secondly, you're talking a load of bollox. I disagree violently with what you wrote and unless you naff off (and don't come back until you've something sensible to say and you've checked that you have my permission first) I'm going to hunt you down to your home venue (thank you for listing it in your profile) then deal with you like the mangy dog that you are. Thirdly, I don't believe you exist anyway."

    I'm not convinced that's entirely the right approach but I can't put my finger on what needs changing...

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    The Gobby one! WittyBird's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Something like this you mean?

    "Firstly, welcome to the Forum. Secondly, you're talking a load of bollox. I disagree violently with what you wrote and unless you naff off (and don't come back until you've something sensible to say and you've checked that you have my permission first) I'm going to hunt you down to your home venue (thank you for listing it in your profile) then deal with you like the mangy dog that you are. Thirdly, I don't believe you exist anyway."

    You know, I do believe that might just work!
    I wish I could rep you LMFAO

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Grace period for new starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I'm not convinced that's entirely the right approach but I can't put my finger on what needs changing...
    Well, the third sentence has a Fogg index of about 70, so clearly that's Evil.

    And that sounds spookily like the welcome given to Fletch, so there's clearly some plagiarism going on.

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