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  1. #141
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    A lot of Swing music does suit dancing on the off-beat.
    But does that mean it doesn't suit dancing on the on-beat???
    David
    Nope- suits both! Variety is the spice...

    Lindy Hop tends to be danced in 6 or 8 beat phrases so it's nice to fomulate your own patterns within that, such as syncopation, changing beats, pausing for a few beats, etc. For me, it then looks and feels much more interesting, and there is loads of room for expression on both sides.

  2. #142
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    Originally posted by Lindsay
    Nope- suits both! Variety is the spice...

    Lindy Hop tends to be danced in 6 or 8 beat phrases so it's nice to fomulate your own patterns within that, such as syncopation, changing beats, pausing for a few beats, etc. For me, it then looks and feels much more interesting, and there is loads of room for expression on both sides.
    I'm not saying that Lindy doesn't suit swing music - I'm saying exactly the opposite.

    There are a lot of people who can explain what defines music that swings, and how as a result dances like Lindy and West Coast Swing really suit the music. I agree with them. The first beat runs into the second, and encourages you to move on the first beat, and pause on the second. Or move on the first few beats in a bar, and pause on the 8.

    If you see good Lindy (or WCS) dancers, they will do this, whether they are doing normal moves, or improvising. The exception is when there is a break or a highlight, which are almost always on the odd beats.

    Jive is different - you move on the even beat, and pause on the odd beats. (In this way, it has more in common with some latin dances, rather than swing dances.) So dancing off-beat in jive is the same as dancing on-beat in Lindy.

    On-beat in jive is 1,3,5 & 7. Off-beat in Jive is 2,4,6 & 8
    But
    On-beat in Lindy is 2,4,6 & 8. Off-beat in Lindy is 1,3,5 & 7

    (Dancing on-beat means that I complete a step at the right time in the music. Dancing off-beat means I complete a step at the wrong time.)

    So the question is - if the music is 'swinging', why do a dance like jive that tries to get you to fight the music? Or put it another way - if you have music that doesn't 'swing', and doesn't emphasise the even beats (like cha cha cha), would you try to do Lindy to it? Would you want to do a Lindy Whip with the timing '2 3 4&5 6 7 8&1'?

    The only answer is that it can still be fun to do. If you like swing music, and like dancing jive to it, don't let anyone stop you. All this theory means nothing compared to personal preference!

    David

  3. #143
    Confirmed Forum Plant Basil Brush (Forum Plant)'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    A lot of Swing music does suit dancing on the off-beat. But does that mean it doesn't suit dancing on the on-beat???

    then....

    I'm not saying that Lindy doesn't suit swing music - I'm saying exactly the opposite.

    David


    DavidB- have you done a lot of swing (of the lindy type)???

  4. #144
    Confirmed Forum Plant Basil Brush (Forum Plant)'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB

    On-beat in jive is 1,3,5 & 7. Off-beat in Jive is 2,4,6 & 8
    But
    On-beat in Lindy is 2,4,6 & 8. Off-beat in Lindy is 1,3,5 & 7
    David
    That's not quite right. Count 1-AND-2-AND-3-AND-4.... etc.
    That's syncopation, which I think is what was being discussed (?) Sorry to be pedantic...
    Last edited by Basil Brush (Forum Plant); 11th-April-2003 at 08:54 PM.

  5. #145
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    This has nothing to do with syncopation. It is about dancing on time, or off time. But dancing on time in jive is off time in Lindy.

    If you are dancing OFF TIME - you are dancing to the wrong beat in the music. I don't know if 'off time' has a musical definition, but this is from a dancers point of view. A lot of peple can tell when someone is dancing off-time, but it can be difficult to explain. I have usually heard on-time defined as when each movement should finish. If you finish on the wrong beat, you are off-time.

    ------------------------------------------

    In lindy you start each movement (eg twist twist or a triple step) on the downbeat (ie the 1, 3, 5 or the 7), and you finish it on the up-beat (ie the 2, 4, 6 or the 8)

    If you did a lindy whip (correctly), you would count it as:
    1 2 3&4 5 6 7&8

    If you danced Lindy OFF-TIME, you would do
    2 3 4&5 6 7 8&1

    -------------------------

    In Ceroc you start each movement (eg step back, or step in) on the up-beat (2, 4, 6 or 8) and finish it on the down-beat (1, 3, 5 or 7)

    If you did a Ceroc first move (correctly) you would do:

    Count Music Step
    ..1.. .8.1. Step Back
    ..2.. .2.3. Step in
    ..3.. .4.5. Twist Out
    ..4.. .6.7. Twist Back
    ..5.. .8.1. Turn Lady
    ..6.. .2.3. Step Back
    ..7.. .4.5. Return
    ..8.. .6.7. Step Back

    If you did a Ceroc first move OFF TIME you would do:

    Count Music Step
    ..1.. .1.2. Step Back
    ..2.. .3.4. Step in
    ..3.. .5.6. Twist Out
    ..4.. .7.8. Twist Back
    ..5.. .1.2. Turn Lady
    ..6.. .3.4. Step Back
    ..7.. .5.6. Return
    ..8.. .7.8. Step Back

    (the dots don't mean anything - it is just to line everything up)

    The original point that you made was that 'Swing' music suits dancing Jive OFF-TIME. That means it suits dancing Lindy ON-TIME.
    I personally find dancing OFF-TIME uncomfortable, and think that it is wrong. I don't like forcing the dance to fit the music - I would rather pick a dance that suited the music. Personally I would say that 'Swing' music is more naturally suited to Lindy than Jive.

    I don't dance Lindy - I don't like the style that has traditionally been taught in the UK (although I do like the style that I've seen in the US.) But as I don't really like the music, I'm not too bothered about not dancing to it.

    I do dance and teach West Coast Swing, which at it's most basic is just a slower style of Lindy, and has the same timing.

    I hope I've made this a bit clearer.

    David

  6. #146
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    Although I am a Cerocoholic what I dance I describe as Modern Jive, which, as far as I know, has no copyright or trademark restrictions, and no firm definition. I would define it as loosely as possible, eg a leader, one or more followers, the leader communicates by body movements. Footwork matches the circumstances.
    As far as I am concerned the male footwork for the first move, and many others, can consist of just shuffling on the spot. I am sure most of you react in horror to that. However, in crowded environments, like the Hammersmith freestyles or the Casbah it is sometimes the only safe way to dance. If I want to jive to a swing number or a Latin one, I imitate the appropriate footwork. Sometimes I slide my feet around the floor, sometimes, to fast numbers, I skip like a boxer. Just because the music has gone over 200 bpm I see no need to sit down. The body movements are, of course, made to the beat divided by 2 or 4.
    As for which beat to dance on, I do not care, as long as it works. It is not even necessary always to dance to the music. Jazz plaers often insert little solos where they temporarily are in a different time to the rest of the players. It is possible to dance like that, "In" the music, rather than to the music. James described Ceroc as being "The MacDonalds of dance". I would hope that Modern Jive becomes the international cuisine.

  7. #147
    Confirmed Forum Plant Basil Brush (Forum Plant)'s Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    This has nothing to do with syncopation. It is about dancing on time, or off time. But dancing on time in jive is off time in Lindy.
    David
    Still not in agreement with you on this- Lindy Hop is truly not as clear cut as that (apart from at the most basic level). I don't want to enter a big debate- happy to agree to disagree (you're bigger than me going by that bike).

    I don't dance Lindy - I don't like the style that has traditionally been taught in the UK (although I do like the style that I've seen in the US.) But as I don't really like the music, I'm not too bothered about not dancing to it.
    If you are referring to Hollywood/smooth style versus Savoy style then I agree to an extent. When we lived in Surrey there were classes in both, and I preferred Savoy style, but now I'm tho opposite. I don't do much swing these days as I have hardly any free time and ceroc is more accessible.

    As for which beat to dance on, I do not care, as long as it works. It is not even necessary always to dance to the music. Jazz plaers often insert little solos where they temporarily are in a different time to the rest of the players. It is possible to dance like that, "In" the music, rather than to the music.
    With you on this one BigDJiver.... I think Lindsey was making that point too. Modern jiving and swing dance should be free and expressive in my opinion: if you chop and change rhythms, use syncopated footwork, and minimise rigid moves/frameworks, then surely that gives more style??

    Baz

  8. #148
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    Originally posted by bigdjiver
    It is not even necessary always to dance to the music.
    So why bother having music then? wouldn't that be like a singer singing a completely different song to the backing music.......

  9. #149
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    Originally posted by Basil Brush
    Modern jiving and swing dance should be free and expressive in my opinion: if you chop and change rhythms, use syncopated footwork, and minimise rigid moves/frameworks, then surely that gives more style??
    I'd be the last one to advocate 'strict tempo' dancing. I will chop and change moves, stretch or compress timing, and do everything I can to dance to the music... except go off time.

    Syncopated movements are just variations to the normal timing of the dance. Instead of dancing a regular '1 2 3 4', you can dance '& a 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4', or whatever subset of that you want. Syncopations are nice because they give you so much more freedom. And a lot of the music that gets played is syncopated. Swing music by definition is syncopated. So understanding syncopations gives you more chance to dance to the music.

    But the '1 2 3 4' are still in the same place. If you change the dance from '1 2 3 4' to '2 3 4 5', it is not a syncopation. It is dancing off-time.

    Now if your partner likes it, it doesn't matter. But Dance Demon, Emma, Divissima, Gadget, PeterL, Aleks, Graham, Wendy, Tramp and Chicklet have all commented on dancing off-time being a problem with a number of dancers. You might be doing it deliberately, and know exactly what you are doing, but remember for some people it is "worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!! "

    David

  10. #150
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    So why bother having music then? wouldn't that be like a singer singing a completely different song to the backing music.......
    Happens in jazz all of the time. In dance the commonest form is guy goes into a freeze and the gal does her own saxy thang. Few people care whether it is time with the music or not.

  11. #151
    Registered User frodo's Avatar
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    Just a quick point / question.

    The last few posts, going into detail on timing, from DavidB are interesting and very useful information.



    Now if your partner likes it, it doesn't matter. But Dance Demon, Emma, Divissima, Gadget, PeterL, Aleks, Graham, Wendy, Tramp and Chicklet have all commented on dancing off-time being a problem with a number of dancers. You might be doing it deliberately, and know exactly what you are doing, but remember for some people it is "worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!! "

    David
    This (less technical) section however stands out.

    I understand from these posts that when 'off-time' you are still dancing at the correct tempo(?) with a consistent relationship with the music.

    Are all these people commenting on being consistently 'off-time' in the strict sense, or might not keeping to a correct and/or consistent tempo come into it ?

  12. #152
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    So why bother having music then?
    I arrived early at the Ceroc Championships and went straight in to acquire a good position. There were very few in the hall, the competitors were signing in. A young lady acquired the next seat. She was shivering. The music had not started, but I suggested a warm up dance anyway. I played through in my head a song I had written (amateur) , and we really connected. It is one of my most treasured Ceroc moments just us two dancing at the Hammersmith Palais without music playing. I recommend trying the experiment. That experience spawned another song "Stop the music, I wanna dance"

  13. #153
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    Originally posted by bigdjiver
    The music had not started, but I suggested a warm up dance anyway. I played through in my head a song I had written (amateur) ,
    Yep..............Okie so there wasn't any music audible to others , but you were still dancing to the music in your head were'nt you.....and the girl obviously picked up your beat i.e. the beat of the MUSIC in your head

  14. #154
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    Originally posted by frodo
    I understand from these posts that when 'off-time' you are still dancing at the correct tempo(?) with a consistent relationship with the music. Are all these people commenting on being consistently 'off-time' in the strict sense, or might not keeping to a correct and/or consistent tempo come into it ?
    That is a very good point. I was thinking almost exclusively about people dancing 'off time, but at the correct tempo'. However I think some of these posts might have been discussing 'off-tempo' dancing.

    I very rarely see people dancing off-tempo - completely ignoring the music all the time. Of course you get some beginners who struggle, but a lot of us probably had the same problem. But virtually every dancer I see can pick out a definite beat in most songs. It might not be the correct beat, but it is one of the two in there.

    Being off-tempo isn't always wrong - as long as you are a multiple (or fraction) of 2 of the beat. Ceroc is already danced at half the speed of the music. A lot of people will do moves half speed again to suit slower parts of the song. And in slow songs, some people do occasional movements at double speed to give added impact.

    What I see and experience a lot is people momentarily being off-tempo, and drifting off time. It could be for a number of reasons - someone getting in the way, a missed lead, or the lady taking more (or less) time to do something than the man expected. As more people start to experiment with improvising and changing the moves, this is going to happen more and more. The trick is to realise when it happens, and then to get back on-time.

    And you also can get a problem with the music. A lot of modern dance tracks have a 'break' that lasts several bars. Some songs eg 'Two To Tango' just completely change in the middle. And others - eg '21 Seconds' by So Solid Crew are almost impossible to count. At the Bristol competition last year, they played a particularly difficult song, and half the competitors were dancing out of time.

    The point is that if you can't hear the beat, then the chances are that most other people are having the same problem. Just keep listening, and if you think you are wrong, then change.

    David

  15. #155
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    Thanks to David B. for taking the time to explain the timing differences between Swing and Modern Jive.

    One thing it may help to explain is the reluctance of many "Swing" ladies to do Modern Jive. I had assumed it was all a dance snobbery thing, but if the timing is that different I can now understand their reluctance. I gave up Salsa pretty quickly when I found out that apparently similar upper body movements were in fact led differently.

  16. #156
    The Dashing Moderator
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    And you also can get a problem with the music. ... Some songs eg 'Two To Tango' just completely change in the middle.
    Does anyone else go to venues where they play 'Round, Round' by the Sugababes?

    If so, how do you lead the bit in the middle where it completely changes tempo to go into a waltz? I'm sure must be some stylish way round this but I admit I have yet to work out what it is?

    David
    Love dance, will travel

  17. #157
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    Originally posted by DavidY
    Does anyone else go to venues where they play 'Round, Round' by the Sugababes?

    If so, how do you lead the bit in the middle where it completely changes tempo to go into a waltz?
    I haven't heard this at any venue I go to, and this might be just crazy talk, but could you just lead the girl into a very basic waltz? I half-remember being shown waltz footwork a long time ago, and reckon I could probably fake it for a few bars...

  18. #158
    Registered User Divissima's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    Now if your partner likes it, it doesn't matter. But Dance Demon, Emma, Divissima, Gadget, PeterL, Aleks, Graham, Wendy, Tramp and Chicklet have all commented on dancing off-time being a problem with a number of dancers. You might be doing it deliberately, and know exactly what you are doing, but remember for some people it is "worse than BO, worse than bad breath, worse than lycra !!!! "

    David
    would hate to cause offence - I don't think it's worse than any of those things!! :sorry :sorry

    it was more a comment on my deficient following - it wasn't so much that I couldn't hear the off-beat, I just couldn't keep to it. He was regularly on the off-beat, not out of time, I just struggled with it.

  19. #159
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    Originally posted by DavidY
    Does anyone else go to venues where they play 'Round, Round' by the Sugababes? If so, how do you lead the bit in the middle where it completely changes tempo to go into a waltz?
    One of my favourite tracks. I do a Viennese waltz to the bit in the middle. Or at least I try to, and only when I know the lady has done any ballroom. Otherwise I'm likely to step on her feet.

    David

  20. #160
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    Lightbulb

    Originally posted by DavidB
    One of my favourite tracks. I do a Viennese waltz to the bit in the middle. Or at least I try to, and only when I know the lady has done any ballroom. Otherwise I'm likely to step on her feet.

    David
    Ooh David - pick me! I'd love to try it. But I am a bit doubtful how successful that could be in the crowded venues we dance in (of course you probably mean a more on the spot version).

    I think it is important for people to recognise that bit of the music is a Viennese waltz and not a regular 'modern' waltz. The Viennese is very fast, so what you think of as waltz may not even work to that piece of music.

    I think I would recommend slowing right down instead to cope with the change of timing and stepping only on the '1' if you can manage to count the music (i.e. Viennese waltz being quick 1-2-3 1-2-3). The 2-3 will become a nice sweeping gather of weight to suit the mood of the music... well it works nicely in my head (and I think that's how I've managed to dance to that one in the past)

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