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Thread: Following?

  1. #41
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    What about the men who are better followers than the women??

    Well yeh..... They could be useful if we WANTED to lead... but I think deep down we WANT to be led !!! even if we ACT like we want to lead .... and we're probably not very good at leading ..I know I'm not ...... Jeez, I'm starting to confuse myself here !!!

    What DO I want ....??????

    Wxxx

  2. #42
    Commercial Operator
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    Originally posted by Wendy
    here !!!

    What DO I want ....??????

    Wxxx
    Chocolate?

  3. #43
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    Chocolate?
    You've really got me sussed haven't you ... well the bit about chocolate !!! I like to think there's more to me than that ... but then maybe there really isn't. Maybe CEROC is just a substitute for chocolate.... aaarrrggghhh - this forum is driving me crazy ..... am I still in the DJ Booth ... where am I ??????

    Watch out everybody ....

    don't let it happen to you too !!!!!


    Wxxxxx (Munch screaming smilie)

  4. #44
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    Originally posted by Wendy
    Maybe CEROC is just a substitute for chocolate
    There is no substitute for chocolate!!!! Especially Galaxy Hazelnut

  5. #45
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    There is no substitute for chocolate!!!! Especially Galaxy Hazelnut
    I suppose with chocolate you are never disappointed.... but then you don't get that magical moment you weren't expecting and a memory that lasts for days...weeks even........

    chocolate CEROC chocolate CEROC......????

    Wx

  6. #46
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Oh I forgot red shoes.....

    Can a girl really have it all ???????

    Wx

  7. #47
    The Oracle
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    Originally posted by Wendy
    Can a girl really have it all ???????
    Try this

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Nice and Close together, now

    Originally posted by Gadget
    I don't understand why 'good' leads (& followers) don't go to the beginner's classes? It's the basics; what everything else is based on - it gives an excellent opportunity to hone them and get your placement right.
    I'm guessing most intermediates skip beginner class because they feel like they've got the basics mastered. I'm also guessing they're mostly wrong about that.

    To be fair, the beginner class isn't really about mastering the basics either - there's no time to go over all the technique in detail (although often the teacher will mention some aspect I've forgotten or missed).

    I mostly use the beginner class to practice style and technique (working on staying on my toes and spotting during spins at the moment). I try not to put off the beginners though.

  9. #49
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    Try this
    Jee!! You are GOOD !!!!! What are they like to dance in though ?????? And are they red ???

    Wx

    PS Were you the great dancer in Blackpool I was too afraid to ask to dance ???? (Yeh, like you are going to know the answer to that !!)

  10. #50
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Nice and Close together, now

    Originally posted by gcapell
    I'm guessing most intermediates skip beginner class because they feel like they've got the basics mastered. I'm also guessing they're mostly wrong about that.

    To be fair, the beginner class isn't really about mastering the basics either - there's no time to go over all the technique in detail (although often the teacher will mention some aspect I've forgotten or missed).

    I mostly use the beginner class to practice style and technique (working on staying on my toes and spotting during spins at the moment). I try not to put off the beginners though.
    Sydney isn't near Glasgow - is it ??

    Wx

  11. #51
    Omnipotent Moderator Tiggerbabe's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wendy

    PS Were you the great dancer in Blackpool I was too afraid to ask to dance ????
    I'll bet that was him Wendy - but he's far too modest to admit it..............if I see David when we are down in London, I'll introduce you - but only if I get to dance with him too

  12. #52
    Registered User horsey_dude's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Following?

    Originally posted by DavidB
    Because so few men know how to lead.


    That is the kind of thing I was told when I first started that it was completely the mans responsibility etc etc... But it is not true, and by taking any responsibility away from the women so as not to hurt their feelings you take away the chance to recognise the problem and improve.

    Bad habits start early and I have noticed that in the franchises where they emphasise proper technique at the beginning there is a much greater proportion of skilled dancers. It is always harder to unlearn a bad habit then to do it correctly from the start.

    If being a good lead was all there was to it then any woman could walk of the street and dance like an expert from day one but this is not true.

    Dancing with a women who does not folow is like driving a car where you turn the steering wheel and the car lurches around the corner when it decides or you push the brake at the lights and the car stops somewhere before the intersection (you hope). And sometimes the accelerator slams down and the car takes off in a completely unpredictable direction. If it is a car you drive all the time then you get used to its quirks and manage to cope but you will never drive anywhere where you might need to count on it because it would be dangerous (to the car and yourself).

    I would be interested to hear a female perspective on this since it has mostly been the guys responding.

  13. #53
    The Oracle
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    Originally posted by Sheena
    I'll introduce you - but only if I get to dance with him too
    I'm having a good day today. I'm presenting my own TV show, having a 'menage a quatre' with the dirty triplets, and ladies are booking me for dances a month in advance.

  14. #54
    Omnipotent Moderator Tiggerbabe's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Following?

    Originally posted by horsey_dude

    If being a good lead was all there was to it then any woman could walk of the street and dance like an expert from day one but this is not true.

    I would be interested to hear a female perspective on this since it has mostly been the guys responding.
    I don't think anyone said that being a good lead was ALL there was to it - :sorry obviously you have to learn how to follow that lead too - how to read and recognise the various signals that we use and it is definitely not easy if the signals are not clear.

    Last night, for example, I missed a signal for a pretzel because the guy had on a really baggy shirt and his hand got caught somewhere amongst the folds...... he was a bit miffed, but if he had just turned around a bit further it would have been obvious what he wanted me to do............
    Some of the guys put their hand behind their back for style - it doesn't mean they want you to take it though.

    Having said that, dancing as a man quite often it still amazes me how some women manage to turn anti/clockwise when everything you have done previously and the momentum of the dance would lend itself to her turning the other way.

    I know sometimes I anticipate a move if a guy does one that Alex (my regular dance partner) does - I relax, because I know and am really comfortable with the move - and then if he finishes it differently or does some other variation on it I can get caught out - in my defence though, if it's well led I'll catch on and respond appropriately (this is the bit where all the guys come on and tell me that I don't........
    )

    Wasn't much help really was I? It's late, I need chocolate and there was no dancing tonight.:sorry

  15. #55
    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Following?

    Originally posted by Sheena
    in my defence though, if it's well led I'll catch on and respond appropriately (this is the bit where all the guys come on and tell me that I don't........
    You know you do!! Anyway I'm always amazed at how well the vast majority of ladies cope with all the different styles and variations on moves of the guys they dance with.

    I need chocolate and there was no dancing tonight.:sorry
    Oh yes there was - if I can get up to Dundee you can get down to Rosyth! (Why does "chocolate" get into every thread??)

  16. #56
    Registered User horsey_dude's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Following?

    Originally posted by Sheena

    Last night, for example, I missed a signal for a pretzel because the guy had on a really baggy shirt and his hand got caught somewhere amongst the folds...... he was a bit miffed, but if he had just turned around a bit further it would have been obvious what he wanted me to do............
    Thats a great example because there is a lot more that he could do.... I'm assuming that a pretzel is the same thing I am thinking of... If you start left hand right hand there are so many things that could be led after the initial push away. The hand behind the back makes it obvious but say the women doesn't see it (baggy shirt etc.).

    What would have happened if he kept his thumb on top and raised your hand and rotated it clockwise as you came in? If you have tension in you arm it will naturally cause you to turn. At the same time he turns side on. At that moment if you are truly following you won't move any further because there is no lead to continue, you look down, and lo and behold there is his hand...

    Its so easy for the guys to get lazy and lead it as step away, stick hand behind back, end of story.......

    When you drive a car and a child runs out in front of you then it is instinctive to brake or swerve because there is no time to analyse the situation carefully. Its the same playing an instrument or walking and talking. We don't think, we do! Thats why I can't handle it if my partner is talking to me when I am dancing. As soon as I start to think of a reply suddenly I am out of touch with the music and everything is hard and awkward.

    For me to dance well my partner needs to rock out so that the tension between us is like a rubber band stretching out and the momentum carries us on to the next move. If she is holding all of her own weight to give her the extra time to guess what I am going to do next then it is just not the same.

    I know that for a lot of people it doesn't matter if they dance in time with the music or if the man gets to choose what moves they do, but it just makes it so much better if you do. I don't think that you lose the enjoyment or the social side of it. It just adds another dimension.

  17. #57
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Following?

    Originally posted by horsey_dude
    ~snip~I know that for a lot of people it doesn't matter if they dance in time with the music or if the man gets to choose what moves they do, but it just makes it so much better if you do.
    Never mind the moves, leading or following; if you can't dance in time with the music, then none of the rest will fall into place!
    "Disaster recovery"{ie when the lady does somthing un-expected/un-led*} is almost impossable if you can't find the thread of the music (or at least the same thread as your partner is dancing to).

    What I have begun to noticed recently is that there is a subtle, but distinct, difference between the lady doing her own 'thang' and taking the lead - sometimes the man gets confused as to which is which, and sometimes the lady appologises for leading when you gave them the opportunity to.
    Once it clicked that there was a difference, it became easier to identify and insert such things into the dance.

    {* this seems to be happening a lot more - would it be that my lead is deteriorating, or I am trying different moves, or ladys are becoming more relaxed with me and not looking for the variations?}

  18. #58
    Registered User Divissima's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Following?

    Originally posted by John S
    (Why does "chocolate" get into every thread??)
    Just to show that we ladies aren't always [I] thinking about chocolate and/or shoes (or even chocolate shoes - thanks for that DavidB).....

    Lead and follow is the toughest part of modern jive, for me anyway. It is such a finely-balanced instrument - even with the same partner (my competition partner) who you'd think could lead me and I could follow consisently well we have off nights. Sometimes it can be something entirely external to the dance - say if there's a couple nearby I suddenly spot moving towards us at great speed who my partner hasn't seen, I'll adjust my trajectory but my partner, unawares, will find that I'm not where he's led me to be.

    Another problem with modern jive is that some moves aren't led so much as signalled (for example, some lifts, drops or speccy moves). Once the man has used a recognised signal, the lady knows the man is relying on her to know what to do and commit to follow it through. So even with a familiar partner, where you are more likely to be doing this kind of move, there's a problem if a man decides, for whatever reason, to scrap or modify a move part way through. I tend not to like this kind of move too much for that reason although there's no real way around it.

    Amir once said (in the context of tango but equally applicable in many ways to jive) that a lady does nothing. She simply waits. She doesn't try to anticipate or lead, she waits to be led. It is easier said than done It is part of the human brain to make sense of information which has gaps in it - so if you are being led a move you think you know, it is natural to assume you know what's coming next. I sometimes find this tendency has switched on while I'm dancing - so much to concentrate on all the time, have to concentrate on switching it off again and really waiting and following. But where would be the fun if there wasn't another aspect to improve.

    Sorry, this is turning into a stream of consciousness post, but I'll press on as I've been reading this thread with great interest wanting to reply...

    Final thoughts are on balance. It is hard for a lady to follow a lead if her balance is all wrong. You can't step to the right if your weight is already on your right foot (you'd fall over, or stumble inelegantly). I'm always trying to improve my balance and my partner is always trying to improve reading where my weight is distributed (no cheeky comments about hip measurements or thighs, please, I only mentioned chocolate once, drat!, twice, three times if you count chocolate shoes, - arrgggh!! four times, then ). So the lady is trying to listen to the lead, but the man is trying to listen to the lady's momentum and weight distribution so he knows if she is poised to move in the direction he wants her to go.

    Horsey-dude, is this helpful or just way off beam?
    :sorry :sorry

  19. #59
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    I agree entirely with most of the remarks made at the beginning of the thread and having danced as a woman it's sometimes amazing that women do follow as well as they do

    I've heard quite a number of women commenting on the lack of lead from some men but as folk said earlier they don't like to say anything to the man. That does mean that he won't improve or that every new woman will have to adjust to his leadless dancing. One option is of course to tell the teacher - and I don't mean to go and 'clipe' as we say up here - but to get the teacher to dance with the man ( easier if it's a female teacher perhaps ) and she can have a polite word. If not a teacher perhaps an experienced taxi dancer ???

    As David says .........a good 'strong' lead is essential - and he has no problems, not because he's big and strong ( which he is !!) but because he leads clearly. If it's a new move or unusual then there's no problem in taking time to go over the move or discuss it after the dance.

    I've only ever danced with one woman who almost appeared to deliberately disregard the lead and the tempo of the song in an attempt to do her own 'thang' which made the dance an absolute nightmare. I do love it when women improvise or use breaks to their full potential !!!!!!!!

    I don't think a class is the best place to go over a lot of lead and follow.......that's what the workshops are for and the blindfold activity in the beginners class worked. Maybe we should try that again !!!!:sorry Anyone got a blindfold

  20. #60
    Registered User Chicklet's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bill
    [: Anyone got a blindfold [/B]
    er yes, but I've never used it for dancing

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