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Thread: Following?

  1. #1
    Registered User horsey_dude's Avatar
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    Following?

    Why do so few women seem to know how to follow? I have now been to about 10 different franchises and 1 different modern jive studio and I am amazed at how few women really follow the lead without anticipating or trying to lead themselves.

    This is not an attack on the ladies so please don't feel like you have to flame me!

    The way that I understand it (and you can correct me if I am wrong) the man leads each part of a move and if he was to stop halfway through then the woman would stop. This means that the man can lead a move that the woman has never done before and she will simply follow each part until it is completed.

    What seems to happen is that at the start the woman tries to guess what move is coming up and then leads herself through it. This means that if the man is trying to do something different with the timing it ends up looking really messy as the woman tries to slow down or speed up at the last minute.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

  2. #2
    The Oracle
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    Re: Following?

    Originally posted by horsey_dude
    Why do so few women seem to know how to follow?
    Because so few men know how to lead.

    The way that I understand it (and you can correct me if I am wrong) the man leads each part of a move and if he was to stop halfway through then the woman would stop. This means that the man can lead a move that the woman has never done before and she will simply follow each part until it is completed.
    Most of the simpler Ceroc moves flow pretty well. By that I mean the lady is just doing a pretty natural movement, with no uncomfortable or forced changes of direction. If you change these moves, you must keep this natural flow, or give the lady enough warning that something different is going to happen. For example in a return, you can turn the lady twice, taking an extra count, quite easily because it flows. But to get the lady to turn twice in a single count you have to set the lady up for the turn a bit sharper (I hesitate before saying stronger), and put the acceleration in early enough so the lady has a chance.

    The lead starts before the follow. It is impossible for the two to start at the same time. So make sure you lead early enough for the lady to do the step in time with the music.

    The amount of energy needed to lead properly is very small, but it has to be well directed. So make sure you can lead the normal version properly. Then make sure your lead for the variation is noticably different, but still with just enough energy to do the move. As soon as you start putting too much into it, you risk pulling the lady off balance, or even worse hurting her. She will then spend the rest of the dance fighting you, not following you.

    It is not just your hand that does the lead. The lady will take clues from what your body is doing, and sometimes where you are looking. If you are doing a variation, then your body can almost certainly do something different. Try practising with a lady who you are very used to dancing with, and do a whole song without holding hands. Don't just do basic steps - do your variations as well, and see how much your body shaping can affect the lady.

    And make sure you don't give the lady confusing leads just because you are trying to add your own style.

    David

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Following?

    Originally posted by horsey_dude
    Why do so few women seem to know how to follow? I have now been to about 10 different franchises and 1 different modern jive studio and I am amazed at how few women really follow the lead without anticipating or trying to lead themselves.
    I am afraid I am with DavidB on this one, on the dance floor, the man has to take responsibility for everything, even for his partner not following.
    Apart from Beginners, most women will follow a move if given sufficient warning and guides. If you find women don't follow your variations, try to identify the point where they fail to follow and bring your lead earlier...

    Another good idea would be for you to dance as a woman for a while (find a few open-minded guys to lead you). You will notice very quickly how baffling some moves become when the boot is on the other shoe!

    Franck.

  4. #4
    The Forum Legend
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    I'm mostly with David and Franck.

    I totally agree that it is the guys not leading the women well that usually leads to women anticipating things themselves, and not following the leads. And maybe, if every guy actually led, then the situation wouldn't be there.

    However, even when ladies do get good leads, quite often I find that they will still be anticipating (although, as previously stated, this might be from having to compensate the rest of the time).

    I think that in classes, ladies should be concentrating on learning how to follow. When I was a taxi dancer, I used to tell all the beginner ladies not to try to do the moves themselves - even when the guy they were with was doing it 'wrong'. Let themselves be led wrongly - and then at the end, tell the guy what he was doing wrong, rather than just taking the lead, and walking through the move themselves, as this means that the lady doesn't learn to follow, and the guy doesn't learn to lead.

    Another thing, I think, is that most people are loathe to give feedback to people they dance with. I understand that this may be difficult - there was the lady who when I asked if I might offer a little advice, very snootily told me that she'd been dancing for 2 years. I barely restrained from point out that if she'd been dancing for 2 years, then I'd have expected her to be a lot less crap than she was - but if people don't get feedback on how they are dancing, how do they know if they are doing things right or not.

    Steve

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    Papa Smurf
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    Originally posted by TheTramp

    Another thing, I think, is that most people are loathe to give feedback to people they dance with. I understand that this may be difficult - there was the lady who when I asked if I might offer a little advice, very snootily told me that she'd been dancing for 2 years. I barely restrained from point out that if she'd been dancing for 2 years, then I'd have expected her to be a lot less crap than she was - but if people don't get feedback on how they are dancing, how do they know if they are doing things right or not.
    I think the people that dont accept criticism are never going to be the best they can be, and are probably nowhere near as good as they think they are. Accepting constructive criticism will teach you a hell of a lot (ive found) of course it may not always be constructive but you can tell if people are trying to be helpful and should take comments in the spirit they are given.

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    The Oracle
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    Re: Re: Following?

    Originally posted by Franck
    try to identify the point where they fail to follow and bring your lead earlier...
    If things go consistently wrong at one point in a move, and you can't figure out what is happening, then look at what you do immediately before the problem. In my experience, 9 times out of 10 the solution lies in fixing what you have already done, not what you want to do next.

    David

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    I'm also mostly with Dave and Franck, but I agree with Steve too - there is certainly an element of not following which some ladies exhibit right from the start. I make no claim to be a decent lead, but I think I can probably lead at least some of the beginners moves competently, and yet there are still times I do a class and a lady will more or less completely ignore me, and just walk through what she thinks she should be doing (often by looking at and copying someone else).

    Where I agree with Franck and Dave is that if you are a good lead, you can overcome this, and to some extent I can do with most people (especially in freestyle, since it's harder for them to anticipate what I'm about to do) but I do find it's a bit like pushing a shopping trolley - it's not that it's tremendously difficult or strenuous countering the wonky wheel, it's just much nicer when you don't have to.

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    An Eclectic Toaster
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    Giving advice

    There is one tricky area about giving advice to lady beginners though - trying to make them move in closer.

    If you're not the teacher or a taxi dancer, it's difficult to offer such advice, without sounding like you're trying it on. And whilst I generally agree with the view that "it's always the man's fault", it can be a nightmare, trying to lead a woman who requires a foot radius of clear air around her...:reallymad

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    Re: Giving advice

    Originally posted by Stuart M
    There is one tricky area about giving advice to lady beginners though - trying to make them move in closer.

    If you're not the teacher or a taxi dancer, it's difficult to offer such advice, without sounding like you're trying it on. And whilst I generally agree with the view that "it's always the man's fault", it can be a nightmare, trying to lead a woman who requires a foot radius of clear air around her...:reallymad
    Can't say I've noticed that problem Stuart.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Graham
    there are still times I do a class and a lady will more or less completely ignore me, and just walk through what she thinks she should be doing (often by looking at and copying someone else).

    This really used to annoy me. How can they watch for signals etc when they are looking at someone else ? i think it's a bit like the womens moan about guys not making eye contact. If they are not watching what you do , how can they hope to follow you ?

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheTramp
    However, even when ladies do get good leads, quite often I find that they will still be anticipating (although, as previously stated, this might be from having to compensate the rest of the time).
    Yep I agree, they will anticipate (up to a point, they have to), and this is why we (as leaders) have to anticipate the anticipation I often describe leading as closing options, leaving only one open door for the lady to go through. the only way you'll manage to avoid ladies leading / anticipating is through leaving only 1 very clear (and as DavidB says: comfortable) option.
    There will always be women who despite all the above go against everything, and lead back in totally unpredictable ways, but I usually put this down to nervousness, especially if they know they are dancing with a 'good' dancer... they simply panic.
    I think that in classes, ladies should be concentrating on learning how to follow.
    I agree, but in a busy class situation, it is not always possible, even in workshops, where you can be much more on top of things.
    The best advice I find I can give (new) women is to avoid dancing with beginners, and to concentrate on dancing with experienced leads. This will give them an idea of what 'Freestyle' is and help them relax. The advice about not 'helping' men is good too, as long as women do the leading for the men, how can men learn what is needed of them?
    Another thing, I think, is that most people are loathe to give feedback to people they dance with.
    I am a bit weary of unsolicited advice... Most people would not welcome it, and if anything it might affect their confidence... Also a lot of 'unsolicited advice' is often given by people who would most need advice themselves
    I would however encourage everyone to solicit advice from someone they regard as good (teachers and taxi-dancers are a good start), as DS says, anyone who thinks they don't need advice or can't improve, still have a lot to learn!

    Franck.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dance Demon
    This really used to annoy me. How can they watch for signals etc when they are looking at someone else ? i think it's a bit like the womens moan about guys not making eye contact. If they are not watching what you do , how can they hope to follow you ?
    I think you have to separate the Class from Freestyle.

    In the Class, everyone is learning, and the women are seeking visual re-assurance that they are doing the right thing, especially if you make it easy by leading well, it will seem too easy and they will look at the teacher / demo for confirmation they went 'the right way'. Often they will be wondering what to do with their feet etc and will need to check the stage.
    During a class, everyone's attention is (and should be) focused on the teacher, so I don't mind when my partner ignores me temporarily.

    In Freestyle on the other hand, there is no excuse for not paying attention to your partner. Making eye contact and looking in their direction to catch leads / signals etc... is crucial!
    I know that some people (men and women) can become quite nervous, and therefore will not look at their partner, but it does make the dance much more difficult...

    Franck.

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    Re: Re: Giving advice

    Originally posted by Graham
    Can't say I've noticed that problem Stuart.
    Ah, seeing as you're now CJ's "dances like a girl" champion, that's because you're not seen as a threat

    You were asking for that one!

    Seriously though, I think the "move in close" hurdle is an important one to overcome with beginners. Simplest thing is to tell the lady to relax, I've found.

    Advising a non-beginner is something I generally wouldn't do, unless I knew her fairly well.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Franck
    ?
    I am a bit weary of unsolicited advice... Most people would not welcome it, and if anything it might affect their confidence... Also a lot of 'unsolicited advice' is often given by people who would most need advice themselves
    I would however encourage everyone to solicit advice from someone they regard as good (teachers and taxi-dancers are a good start), as DS says, anyone who thinks they don't need advice or can't improve, still have a lot to learn!

    Franck.
    Good call Franck. My good lady often tells me about relatively inexperienced guys that tell her she has done a move incorrectly, after giving a crap, or even non existant lead. Asking people with more experince than yourself is always a good way to learn, so ask a Taxi dancer, coz that's what they're there for.

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    Originally posted by Franck
    In the Class, everyone is learning, and the women are seeking visual re-assurance that they are doing the right thing, especially if you make it easy by leading well, it will seem too easy and they will look at the teacher / demo for confirmation they went 'the right way'. Often they will be wondering what to do with their feet etc and will need to check the stage.
    During a class, everyone's attention is (and should be) focused on the teacher, so I don't mind when my partner ignores me temporarily.
    I have no objection to what you describe. But I fail to see how you can execute the majority of moves correctly whilst maintaining your head in a position facing the teacher (and I'm not kidding - some people do this!). Added to the fact that they're ignoring me, some of them then FAIL to follow the teacher correctly (eg turn left instead of right, etc) resulting in discomfort and occasionally pain. And of course even if they do successfully follow the teacher, I might make a mistake, with the same results.

    Generally I watch the teacher during the walk-thru, but when we get to a count or music I just listen. I'm still paying attention to the teacher, but of course can also take into account what my partner is doing.

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    Registered User John S's Avatar
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    Nice and Close together, now

    Originally posted by Stuart M

    Seriously though, I think the "move in close" hurdle is an important one to overcome with beginners. Simplest thing is to tell the lady to relax, I've found.
    It can also help to explain that if you start close together you can then move apart and create the tension needed to dance well.

    (BTW, this seems to be a guy-only thread: there's a deafening silence from the distaff side!)

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Graham
    Generally I watch the teacher during the walk-thru, but when we get to a count or music I just listen. I'm still paying attention to the teacher, but of course can also take into account what my partner is doing.
    Yep, that's fair enough, but you are talking from the perspective of a leader rather than a follower...
    Followers are a the mercy of their partner, if they are lead the right way, the move will be correct and all is fine, but as often as not they are lead the wrong way during the class.
    It is all a question of trust, do they trust the man's lead or not.
    The women you are talking about might have just danced with another beginner who consistently lead them in the 'wrong' direction, so when you try (correctly) to lead them the other way, they are bound to resist / check that you are not doing it wrong...

    Having said that, I agree that it can be pretty painful / frustrating when you *know* you're right, and they refuse to follow / listen

    Franck.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Nice and Close together, now

    Originally posted by John S
    (BTW, this seems to be a guy-only thread: there's a deafening silence from the distaff side!)
    Well, this thread has not mentioned chocolate once so far, so I am not surprised

    Franck.

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    Re: Re: Re: Giving advice

    Originally posted by Stuart M
    Ah, seeing as you're now CJ's "dances like a girl" champion, that's because you're not seen as a threat

    Seriously though, I think the "move in close" hurdle is an important one to overcome with beginners. Simplest thing is to tell the lady to relax, I've found.
    Firstly: no, Stuart, you're still the champ!!

    Secondly: if you weren't trying to get your leg over, perhaps you wouldn't be encountering this problem...

    TAXI FOR MEEEEEE

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    Re: Re: Nice and Close together, now

    Originally posted by Franck
    Well, this thread has not mentioned chocolate once so far, so I am not surprised

    Franck.
    Oh no!!!!! you've gone and mentioned the "C " word Franck
    that's a cue for wendy And Chicklet to go completely off thread

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