Useful and useless beginner's moves

[Ghost]

(Nowhere near the fence. Not even in the field next to it)

Ok would you simplify the existing moves more then?

Eg the first move the part in the open out stage where the lady rests her hand on the guy - and then forgets to remove it and elbows him as he continues the move

and then introduce them as "style" points in intermediate classes?

Be Well,
Christopher

[Baruch]

And you want to teach them dips in their first class?

No. Absolutely not.

There are worse things than dips. A pretzel or an arch (archiespin to you Ceroc types) could be extremely dangerous if not done properly. I know Ceroc removed the pretzel from their list of beginners' moves, but that was only comparatively recently.

I think it's good to teach beginners the basics of moves and techniques that can be expanded on later. Perhaps a small dip, with all the relevant safety advice, could be included in that.

[Ghost]

There are worse things than dips.

I think it's good to teach beginners the basics of moves and techniques that can be expanded on later. Perhaps a small dip, with all the relevant safety advice, could be included in that.

What about if once every 6 weeks the beginner class was taught with just one move (the first move seems logical) and the seducer we're talking about?

Be Well,
Christopher

[ducasi]

Sorry - we are talking about beginners here? People who have never been to a dance class in their lives? Whose knowledge of partner dancing begins and ends with a smooch? Who are already trying to cope with 3 unfamiliar things (the music, the movements and holding hands whilst dancing)?

I'd hope at least the music is at least vaguely familiar, though folks tell me that beginners pay little attention to it anyway...

And you want to teach them dips in their first class?

No. Absolutely not.

What is fundamentally different in complexity between a first move safe dip, and, say, a catapult?

I'd say the dip is simpler, and the lean part of the catapult requires the dancers to balance each other much more than a small dip would – where the lady is responsible for taking all her own weight.

With proper instruction, and students who realise that they're learning with other beginners, I'm not so sure it wouldn't work.

That said, you've got way more experience of these things than I have... But if Trampy slightly on my side of the fence, I'd hope I'm not talking complete rubbish.

[spindr]

If you can't lead and follow and don't understand floor craft -- then how can you be supposed to know when / where it's safe to do a dip / drop. At least if you dance a first move in the wrong place, the most that tends to go wrong is that someone gets trodden on.

Similarly, if you don't have timing / balance, then surely you shouldn't even be thinking about doing dips / drops.

Let's not even go in to the idea that all beginners are going to turn up in sensible footwear.

SpinDr

[ducasi]

If you can't lead and follow and don't understand floor craft -- then how can you be supposed to know when / where it's safe to do a dip / drop. At least if you dance a first move in the wrong place, the most that tends to go wrong is that someone gets trodden on.

Similarly, if you don't have timing / balance, then surely you shouldn't even be thinking about doing dips / drops.

Again, I'd suggest that a catapult, in terms of safety and floor-craft, is more dangerous than a simple first move dip. We're not talking about ballroom drops here.

[Ghost]

That said, you've got way more experience of these things than I have... But if Trampy slightly on my side of the fence, I'd hope I'm not talking complete rubbish.

I have to admit that's the only reason I haven't legged it off the fence yet.

Be Well,
Christopher

[spindr]

Again, I'd suggest that a catapult, in terms of safety and floor-craft, is more dangerous than a simple first move dip. We're not talking about ballroom drops here.

???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult?

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.

SpinDr

[Ghost]

???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult?

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.

SpinDr

Um send me a beginner then. As long as I get to take my full weight I've got no problem with this.

Be Well,
Christopher

[TheTramp]

Such responsibility!!

I do see DavidB's side of things. Which is why I'm on the fence, rather than off in a field of my own. And to a degree, I agree with him!

The main reasons (as previously stated) that I might be tempted to include a 1st move seducer (not sure I'd call it a dip, not sure I'd want to call it a seducer in a beginners class either - I'm open to suggestions on a name!) in the list of beginner moves, is mainly because when it comes to freestyle, there are plenty of men who do that sort of thing on the dance floor to people in their first week anyhow.

So, by teaching a very basic level of move, you can at least emphasise safety points (the main one being that you don't have to actually do the move if you don't want to), and teach correct procedure etc. As previously stated, if it was included in the list, I'd expect it to be taught that the lady takes ALL of her own weight, in more of a sitting position, than taking her weight backwards.

Incidentally, the pretzel has never been taught at a beginners class, or been in the beginner move list in the 7 years I've been doing Ceroc.

[Baruch]

Um send me a beginner then.

I don't think Parcelforce will take them, so it'll have to be via courier

[Ghost]

I don't think Parcelforce will take them, so it'll have to be via courier

Hmm mail order dancers - now there's an idea

Be Well,
Christopher

[TheTramp]

???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult?

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.

Ummm. You turn the girl, and send her out behind you at arms length. Most intermediates don't look behind them when doing this. Let alone beginners.

As for picking a complete beginner leader to do a very basic, simple dip, where I take my own weight..... Since I am quite happy letting ladies "lead" me into a one armed ballroom drop (where I take my own weight), I really don't have a problem with this. I don't think that it's a particularly relevant example.....

[spindr]

Ummm. You turn the girl, and send her out behind you at arms length. Most intermediates don't look behind them when doing this. Let alone beginners.

In that case they won't look when they lean / dip / drop / seduce their follower...

As for picking a complete beginner leader to do a very basic, simple dip, where I take my own weight..... Since I am quite happy letting ladies "lead" me into a one armed ballroom drop (where I take my own weight), I really don't have a problem with this. I don't think that it's a particularly relevant example.....

It's relevant if you pick the nervous guy who's just turned up -- doesn't have great balance -- but is wildly keen to try it and is likely to mislead it -- oh and has slippery shoes, a weak grip, etc., etc. 'Cause the beginner ladies will have to dance the move with him.

SpinDr

[TheTramp]

In that case they won't look when they lean / dip / drop / seduce their follower...


It's relevant if you pick the nervous guy who's just turned up -- doesn't have great balance -- but is wildly keen to try it and is likely to mislead it -- oh and has slippery shoes, a weak grip, etc., etc. 'Cause the beginner ladies will have to dance the move with him.

SpinDr

True. But the move I'm advocating (and have been describing) would be something that would be done in a minimal space, with the lady not taking her head back at all. *shrug* So it wouldn't matter if they looked or not. Whereas, with a catapult, and a crowded dance floor, there are issues - having been kicked in the shins many times from people doing this move!

But that wasn't the example that you asked us to comment on before. I'd be more than happy doing both the move that I've described, and a full one handed ballroom drop with your nervous guy (whether he'd be happy doing them with me might be another matter!). If you want to change the goalposts, and include beginner ladies, then that's another question.

Having said that, I appreciate both sides of the argument. And if you could guarentee that no beginner ladies would be taken into dips or even drops (or airsteps!) when in freestyle dancing, then I wouldn't see a need for such a move to be included in beginners classes. However, since you can't guarentee it, then I'm inclined (and, as said before, not fully convinced either) to suggest that maybe it's would be a good thing, as proper technique could be taught, as well as introducing all the safety issues. Hell, you could even introduce some beginning element of musicality, since for most people, hitting the break means doing some form of dip!

[CJ]

What about if once every 6 weeks the beginner class was taught with just one move (the first move seems logical) and the seducer we're talking about?

...and what happens if it's someone's first night ever?? Bad, bad and even worse.

Am delighted DavidB spoke up. Saves me writing the same ideas less well!!

Room for a wee one in the next field but one, David??

[ducasi]

???Lost me here completely??? Can't see the major problems with a catapult?

Steve has already addressed this in terms of floor-craft – the inexperienced guy will lead the girl behind him without looking. The other thing I was thinking of in terms of safety is that the turning the girl under your arm part of the catapult is also often done wrong by beginners in a way that may cause injury to either party. Oh, and the lean part... What if one of them leans too much?

In a first move safe dip, the dip would be entirely in front of the lead, taking much less space than most moves and would not involve any strange contortions that could injure someone.

Anyway, I think the proponents of the idea should pick a complete beginner leader (turning up to their very first lesson) teach them the move and ask them to lead them into a dip -- if you feel confident / happy about it afterwards, then please post.

Hmm... I'd be more concerned teaming this complete beginner with a determined lady dropper who at the slightest hint of a dip throws herself back. But then in this case, she'll probably get what's coming to her...

Still leaning on the dips side of the fence...

[David Franklin]

The other thing I was thinking of in terms of safety is that the turning the girl under your arm part of the catapult is also often done wrong by beginners in a way that may cause injury to either party. Oh, and the lean part... What if one of them leans too much?

In a first move safe dip, the dip would be entirely in front of the lead, taking much less space than most moves and would not involve any strange contortions that could injure someone.

If you want to assume the same level of egregious dancing, don't you mean:

In a first move safe dip, the dip would be two feet to the left and a foot in front of the lead. The lady will throw all her weight backwards while sending her left foot skywards. The man will simultaneously lunge and bend forwards while overbalancing. Both will be so excited at learning a "flash move" that they won't think to look at all!

Given I've seen all the above behaviour when dips are taught in an intermediate class, I think it imprudent not to expect it in a beginners' class.

I'm not as far off the fence as DavidB, largely because I've seen them teach drops in the beginners' class in Sydney, and it seems to work there. But I think it's a somewhat different culture (more space, the average beginner is younger and fitter, and a lot more non-beginners do the beginners' class).

I think my increasing feeling is that these moves are largely orthogonal to dancing, and in a lot of ways I'd rather see them taught that way - get the mechanics right before worrying about moving to a count, or musicality. But I think it also makes sense to wait until the students aren't still struggling with left v.s. right, or finding the beat, or just the unfamiliarity of the learning environment.

[Princess Fi]

Both will be so excited at learning a "flash move" that they won't think to look at all...

Given I've seen all the above behaviour when dips are taught in an intermediate class, I think it imprudent not to expect it in a beginners' class.

That's exactly what I was trying to get at!!

Evan the 'safe' dips can end badly - I'm still nursing a sore back from Tuesday night's intermediate class where I was twisted badly by an over enthusiastic lead during a 'safe' dip.

So if that's what was happening in the intermediates, the thought of what would happen in the beginners' class just scares me.

I can in theory see the benefits of teaching dips early in dance-life (safety features, awareness of floor craft etc would all be improved), but I've been hurt once too often to get up on that fence I'm afriad

[DavidB]

In a first move safe dip, the dip would be entirely in front of the lead, taking much less space than most moves and would not involve any strange contortions that could injure someone.

You are assuming that people will do what they are told. Advanced dancers in a private lesson don't do what their teacher tells them first time, so why should a beginner in a big class who can't see the stage? Someone *will* throw their partner, or throw themselves, into a drop, no matter how many times you say not to.

Yes - the same will happen in an intermediate class. But hopefully by then the dancers are a bit more aware of each other's movement.

I can see the safety argument. If ladies are going to get dipped/dropped without warning in freestyle, it would be safer if they had some idea what to do. I would be all for dips & drops technique being taught in beginners workshops, or in a structured beginners course. However one great thing about Ceroc is that you can just turn up on any night. It is a near certainty that a beginners class will contain at least one person at their first ever class. If you teach a dip, they will do it. They have to - they only have 2 other moves they can do.

Of course, the public flogging of any man who throws an absolute beginner into a drop would also do the trick.