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Thread: Useful and useless beginner's moves

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    Registered User Gojive's Avatar
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    Useful and useless beginner's moves

    The core set of beginner's moves has changed very little since I started dancing, some 7 or 8 years ago. I'm wondering if it's time the set was examined, and perhaps changed around a bit.

    My reasoning for this, is that it became apparent to me that certain moves have become fundamental to my dance (eg First Move, Catapault), and others have been consigned to my memory trash bin (eg Half-Windmill). I noticed too, how this seems to be fairly common place, across most of the intermediate/advanced dancers that I've watched.

    So, what moves would you keep, what moves would you dump, and are there any others you'd put in instead, if you rewrote the beginner's set?

    Some examples:

    First Move - Keep.

    So many moves based on it in the future.

    Arm Jive - Keep.

    Good way to get beginner's into the beat.

    Half-Windmill - Dump.
    A potentially clumsy move, and possibly dangerous for some beginners.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    The half-windwill hasn't been a beginner's move for over a year now.

    Can't think what I'd add or remove. I think I've said somewhere before on the forum that making the first move seducer a beginner's move *might* be a good idea, as it gives an opportunity to discuss dips and drops safety with beginners.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Gojive's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    The half-windwill hasn't been a beginner's move for over a year now.
    Is that just from the Ceroc set, or have other organisations dropped it too?

    (Methinks I should have perhaps gone to a few beginner's classes again, before starting this thread )

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Can't think what I'd add or remove. I think I've said somewhere before on the forum that making the first move seducer a beginner's move *might* be a good idea, as it gives an opportunity to discuss dips and drops safety with beginners.
    Yes, that certainly sounds like a good idea to me.

  4. #4
    Donna
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Gojive
    Is that just from the Ceroc set, or have other organisations dropped it too?

    (Methinks I should have perhaps gone to a few beginner's classes again, before starting this thread )



    Yes, that certainly sounds like a good idea to me.
    What about beginners who have a bad back etc... I'm sure if that's something they really wouldn't expect to be doing in their first lesson and would drive them away.

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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Donna
    What about beginners who have a bad back etc... I'm sure if that's something they really wouldn't expect to be doing in their first lesson and would drive them away.


    I can see too many things going badly with this idea - followers throwing their weight badly, leads twisting their followers (or worse, dropping them). Best for new dancers to get a hold on the basics like balance, and build up their dancing confidence before doing dips.

    (even if that's what everyone signs up for dance lessons in the first place )

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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Ummm. I think that I'm in agreement that maybe something like the first move seducer should be part of the beginner class.

    It's not really a dip and followers should be taking their own weight totally in this move. It would prepare ladies for being dipped by people in freestyle (because even though you tell people to ask before doing dips, and not to do dips on beginners, some people still will (and I'm not mentioning those people who do airsteps with people on their first night at all here!)). You could also bring out other safety points, like the fact that you don't have to do a dip when the man leads you into it - possibly protecting their bad backs etc.

    But I'm only very slightly on the side of adding them in. Sitting on the fence? Who? Me?

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    *joins the Tramp on the fence*
    Pros -
    Introduces the whole ettiqutte thing early on as teachers can explain the whole "you need to be careful / ask" thing
    Gives guys something cool to do so they can stop feeling the need to do complicated dangerous drops they don't really know yet when they start Intermediate

    Cons -
    Some people don't listen to the teacher
    Some beginners will try and go too far

    I guess I'd stylise the move more - make it even less of a dip and more of a seduce if that makes any sense? Think a minimalist version.

    Be Well,
    Christopher

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    The arguments for and against is why I had said "*maybe*", as I can also see both sides...

    On one of the Aussie DVDs I've got, it starts by teaching a "First Move Safe Dip", then goes on to do the "First Move Dip" (this is from memory, so I might not have it exactly right). If I recall, the key difference is that the lady takes all of her own weight in the safe version.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    The arguments for and against is why I had said "*maybe*", as I can also see both sides...

    On one of the Aussie DVDs I've got, it starts by teaching a "First Move Safe Dip", then goes on to do the "First Move Dip" (this is from memory, so I might not have it exactly right). If I recall, the key difference is that the lady takes all of her own weight in the safe version.
    *makes room for Ducasi on the fence*
    That's how I remember it too.

    As an aside about the half windmill. I was dancing with a lady a while back who'd stopped doing Ceroc a and then re-started and she kept changing my backpasses into half windmills.

    Be Well,
    Christopher

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    As an aside about the half windmill. I was dancing with a lady a while back who'd stopped doing Ceroc a and then re-started and she kept changing my backpasses into half windmills.
    Good reason to go for a "lazy back pass", where you just dump the girl's hand on your waist and catch it round the other side...

    (And, yeah, I'm only talking about Ceroc removing the half windmill from the beginner's move list... No idea about other organisations. )
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost
    *makes room for Ducasi on the fence*
    Sheesh! That's some fence if its supporting Ducasi, Trampy and Ghost

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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    I would agree that some sort of (very easy ) fancy move should be included in the beginners class, because indeed that is why most people sign up in the first place.
    I think I would go for a gentle side to side lean rather than a seducer (you know that move when you bring the lady side to side and just lean on your left leg - sorry don't know the names of moves ) because the potential for things going wrong (injuries and lady dropping!) is reduced - at least that's my impression.

    However on the cons side, if that move had been taught during my first class I would probably have run away being just utterly scared, so I can imagine that would be even worst for a beginner lead.

    So I guess it means we shoud find a way to teach this move only to beginners who've been to say at least 2 or 3 classes before (can't really think of a nice way to do that - may be when the teacher asks at the beginning who's there for the first time, and if there's nobody, and if the class his fairly small, he/she might decide to do that move...)

    That's a hell of a fence indeed, I have just joined and it's still there

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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro
    However on the cons side, if that move had been taught during my first class I would probably have run away being just utterly scared, so I can imagine that would be even worst for a beginner lead.

    I think that would override my choice. I remember, just, being a beginner... even an arm jive seemed to take a lot of concentration back then I think it's difficult to improve on the beginner moves without adding lots of negatives. Obviously you can tweak, the Yoyo has changed since I started, windmill (which I understand most ladies hate anyway) could be dumped, if it hasn't already been etc. etc.

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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    I have met too many ladies that will not do any dips or a lean after years of dancing to believe that introducing such a move into a beginners class is a good idea.

    Most beginners think that an octupus or the shoulder drop are fancy moves, and some even think that they are too fancy. I had to make a little model with pegs and string before I "got" the octopus.

    Ceroc keep an attendance database. If they got their act together it would be possible to identify true beginners, and see what the retention rates were for beginners related to the moves being taught. That should identify which moves, if any, to drop, and give some clue as to which types of move to introduce. It would also give a real mechanism for evaluating new beginner moves.

    I suspect that introducing a wider range of beginner moves and dividing the moves into "core" and "supplementary" moves would get more people attending the beginners lessons, which in turn would enhance the evening, and reduce the step up from beginner to intermediate.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    have met too many ladies that will not do any dips or a lean after years of dancing to believe that introducing such a move into a beginners class is a good idea.
    Then again, perhaps if they had been introduced to *safe* dips as beginners, they'd be more willing to do them years later.

    Just a thought...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Then again, perhaps if they had been introduced to *safe* dips as beginners, they'd be more willing to do them years later.

    Just a thought...
    Sorry, forgot to say something...

    It's not just about the ladies' confidence in doing dips themselves – it's about their confidence in the men doing the dipping. If they knew that pretty much every guy who asked to dance with had been taught how to do dips properly as a beginner, this may also increase their desire to do them.

    Of course, there are still exceptions and special cases, and they could be a good enough reason *not* to teach a safe dip to beginners.

    I'd suggest a bit of experimentation could be done.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Mark and Jackie did a seducer in the beginners' class in Cardiff this week and last week, with a lot of emphasis on safety, ladies supporting their own weight, guys bending knees and keeping back straight, etc. They also pointed out that anyone who doesn't feel comfortable or confident doing dips could refuse. It seemed to work well enough, but I don't think I'd be brave enough to teach a seducer to beginners. I can see the arguments in favour, though.

    (Any more room on that fence?)

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    The Oracle
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Sorry - we are talking about beginners here? People who have never been to a dance class in their lives? Whose knowledge of partner dancing begins and ends with a smooch? Who are already trying to cope with 3 unfamiliar things (the music, the movements and holding hands whilst dancing)?

    And you want to teach them dips in their first class?

    No. Absolutely not.

    (Nowhere near the fence. Not even in the field next to it)

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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    (Any more room on that fence?)
    There's enough scientists around to keep it structurally sound; I suspect we just some more infinities involved

    I vividly remember one Intermediate class when a simple first move dip was taught where I specifically asked every lady in rotation to just do a very small dip. Even did the inch thing with my finger and thumb. They all nodded. However a grand total of 3 actually respected my wishes!

    But then the beginners are going to be in the intermediate class in a few lessons anyway so..........

    What about the one where you stand together and just kinda sink down instead? The official version of this

    Be Well,
    Christopher

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Useful and useless beginner's moves

    I don't know about changing the beginners' moves, but I'd love to change a few of the names.

    "...and for our third move this evening, we're going to do the First Move."

    How daft is that?

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