Ceroc X category

[foxylady]

As one of "the less than 1%* of MJ dancers who also know Lindy" ducasi states, I can honestly answer this.

Dancing with a MJ dancer to swing music is hard for the first 10 seconds, then you switch off and listen to your lead as well as the music - it is very challenging but also fun. You can even put the ocasional 'twist twist' in it, providing you keep to the first move and don't try and do a swing out Any good and experienced MJ dancer can adapt to any music - that's what makes them a good dancer

As another I concurr, and its also the reason that I would NEVER be able to enter the CEROC X comp (except maybe as a leader), because I liberally sprinkle my jive with triple steps, twist twists, sycopated footwork of other sorts if I think I can get away with it (and sometimes even when i can't), and 'footwork' would almost certainly get me disqualified....

[jezzyjj]

Assuming you're one of the less than 1%* of MJ dancers who also know Lindy...
I've seen MJ dancers with bags of musicality "jive" to this song without any problems.
* My estimate.

I think the percentage may be a tad higher than 1% Ducasi, but that only underlines my point really. If the first dance of choice would be Lindy why use a fast swing tune in a Non Lindy competition. If it's a difficult track thru being a dumb, inappropriate choice, why use it? It's easy to lindy to, so why do something far less appropriate? You are having to dance in spite of the music not to it.
And if they are jiving to a swing track, how musical are they really? After all they are ignoring the rhythm of the music and simply dancing to the tempo. However, if they are indeed putting in triples and charleston kicks are they actually doing jive anymore?

Dancing with a MJ dancer to swing music is hard for the first 10 seconds, then you switch off and listen to your lead as well as the music - it is very challenging but also fun. You can even put the ocasional 'twist twist' in it, providing you keep to the first move and don't try and do a swing out Any good and experienced MJ dancer can adapt to any music - that's what makes them a good dancer

Hey Minnie, as a good follower you will be dancing firstly to your leads rhythm and if you were indeed a good dancer and can adapt to the music you would by choice, be doing triple steps and charleston kicks which was not allowed in this Category.
And if you have to switch off as you put it, again it underlines what I was saying. Why bother having that particular track on in the first place. It's challenging yes, so is doing a waltz to a hard rock track in 4/4 time. You agreed b4 that dancing in spite of a song and not to it was a valid point, this is precisely what I meant by that.
Minnie, your last line is simply repeating the biggest myth in Jive, it's used as a marketing tool to make people think Jive is more adaptable than it actually is. So could a 'good jiver' dance to a waltz, a salsa, to Dave Brubeck's 'Take 5'? And that's to the song and not regardless of it. Apperently the latter song was actually used in a musicality class!! No wonder this daft myth persists.

I appreciate that the second track was extremely fast and I think that it was inappropriate for that particluar category. Awaiting to be flamed now!

Not while a newbie on the forum like me is here to be attacked!
Though I'm not the only person here to query the wisdom of playing stuff like Lindy/swing tunes in a competition where you are not allowed to triple step in time with the music.

[ducasi]

If the first dance of choice would be Lindy why use a fast swing tune in a Non Lindy competition. If it's a difficult track thru being a dumb, inappropriate choice, why use it? It's easy to lindy to, so why do something far less appropriate? You are having to dance in spite of the music not to it.

As I said, I've seen people "jiving" to this music without any problems.

Just because it might be more suited to Lindy is no reason not to dance MJ to it.

In the same way as we can dance MJ to a Cha-Cha, a Rumba, or to Tango music – given a 4/4 time and a tempo we feel comfortable moving to, we can do our thang.

And if they are jiving to a swing track, how musical are they really? After all they are ignoring the rhythm of the music and simply dancing to the tempo. However, if they are indeed putting in triples and charleston kicks are they actually doing jive anymore?

I didn't realise that musicality revolved around footwork. In my opinion, choice and timing of moves which fit with the music is more important.

Yeah, modern jive is an adaptable dance, and you're allowed to triple step or charleston kick while still "jiving".

Minnie, your last line is simply repeating the biggest myth in Jive, it's used as a marketing tool to make people think Jive is more adaptable than it actually is. So could a 'good jiver' dance to a waltz, a salsa, to Dave Brubeck's 'Take 5'? And that's to the song and not regardless of it. Apperently the latter song was actually used in a musicality class!! No wonder this daft myth persists.

As I said above, a Modern Jive dancer can dance to pretty much anything with a 4/4 time and a tempo we feel comfortable moving to. Maybe there are more appropriate dances, but yes, Modern Jive allows you room to do anything you can do in those other dances to dance to the music, and not in spite of it.

I've never tried dancing to "Take Five", but I reckon it lies within the realms of the possible...

And if I can dance MJ to a piece of music, and if both my partner and myself enjoy it, then what's the problem?

Though I'm not the only person here to query the wisdom of playing stuff like Lindy/swing tunes in a competition where you are not allowed to triple step in time with the music.

As Modern Jive is taught to beginners as a dance (mostly) without footwork, I'm curious whether triple steps are actually prohibited, and why...

[jezzyjj]

I didn't realise that musicality revolved around footwork.

Well seeing is the rhythm is what your feet are moving to, it's kind of fundamental.

I've never tried dancing to "Take Five", but I reckon it lies within the realms of the possible...

That says it all really.

[Gadget]

And if they are jiving to a swing track, how musical are they really?

Can you please define what you consider to be "Modern Jive" - I have a feeling that your definition differs quite drastically from a lot of folks.

And "Musicality" , specifically in relation to footwork - should we all be dancing to the "ceroc two step" march?

As to dancing in a specific way to specific music - why? you could do big-fish:little-fish:cardboard-box or vogue or mosh or charleston or jive to the same track. What makes one more suitable than another?

[TiggsTours]

I gather from chatting to Robin that 'Bei Mir Bis Du Schoen' was used, now seeing as if you were to employ any musicality you wouldn't jive to that track by choice, but you'd Lindy to it as it swings so nicely. I tried jiving to it, but by ignoring the rhythm, it felt like I was dancing out of time - horrid.

As one of "the less than 1%* of MJ dancers who also know Lindy" ducasi states, I can honestly answer this.

Dancing with a MJ dancer to swing music is hard for the first 10 seconds, then you switch off and listen to your lead as well as the music - it is very challenging but also fun. You can even put the ocasional 'twist twist' in it, providing you keep to the first move and don't try and do a swing out Any good and experienced MJ dancer can adapt to any music - that's what makes them a good dancer

As one of the other "1%" (think you might find its alot higher than that!) I could MJ or Swing to it, depending on what my partner chose to do. If I had a really good partner in MJ to dance with, who could pick up on my interpretation of the track, as well as me picking up on his, I could have a great MJ to it! What I love about MJ is that the lack of structure leaves you so open to iterpret such great tracks in such a fabulous way! Of course, if I didn't have a great dancer in MJ, I'd be wishing I was dancing to it with a Lindy dancer!

[MartinHarper]

I don't see anything in the rules to explicitly ban "footwork" in Ceroc X, but I guess it could be classed as a "modification" to the beginner moves. How did the judges play it on the day?

----

Dancing to Take Five is challenging for both MJ and Lindy, but I don't think it's the 5/4 that does that alone. The problem is that the base-line demands a certain kind of adaptation: typically 6 beat stuff done in 5 beats, or 4 beat stuff extended to 5. Meanwhile, the melody is best danced in a fairly beat-agnostic fashion, with 10 beat phrases. Both of these are doable individually, but they're both in the same song, and things get ugly every time the melody line cuts in or out. Plus, dancing to this kinda thing shows up the tiniest of holes in lead/follow.

[jezzyjj]

I have a feeling that your definition differs quite drastically from a lot of folks.

Hell yes it certainly does if Take5 is considered Jivable.

And "Musicality" , specifically in relation to footwork - should we all be dancing to the "ceroc two step" march?

Not at all, dance in what ever manner the music suggests.

As to dancing in a specific way to specific music - why? you could do big-fish:little-fish:cardboard-box or vogue or mosh or charleston or jive to the same track. What makes one more suitable than another?

A good dancer dancers in the most appropriate way. i.e. to the music and not the tempo.
Say you a drummer in a samba band and you started playing a Batacuda rhythm [even though it may be the same tempo]you wouldn't be very popular.
A good charleston track simply makes you want to charleston and most people only jive to everything regardless, as they don't how to partner dance any other way.
When I went clubbing a lot I noticed most people danced pretty much identically to all the tracks played that night, with only the tempo varying, no matter how varied the music was. MJ is not a lot different in that respect. A few won't but, most will.

Other styles of dance don't insist you can dance to anything, they are no more limiting than MJ structurally. It just happens than MJ originated as a way of dancing to popular European music so we get a false sense of how usuable it is. As there was less swing music around so Lindy begat MJ. As the music changes MJ will change further and may end up being a different dance
Go to Latin America and I think you'll find MJ far less appropriate than here as their music is quite different.
I also think the charts contain less 'jive' music than it used to as music and music buying has changed.

[jezzyjj]

Dancing to Take Five is challenging for both MJ and Lindy, ....... Meanwhile, the melody is best danced in a fairly beat-agnostic fashion, .....

Nice explanation.

[Minnie M]

....... Hey Minnie, as a good follower you will be dancing firstly to your leads rhythm and if you were indeed a good dancer and can adapt to the music you would by choice, be doing triple steps and charleston kicks which was not allowed in this Category.
And if you have to switch off as you put it, again it underlines what I was saying. Why bother having that particular track on in the first place. It's challenging yes, so is doing a waltz to a hard rock track in 4/4 time. You agreed b4 that dancing in spite of a song and not to it was a valid point, this is precisely what I meant by that.
Minnie, your last line is simply repeating the biggest myth in Jive, it's used as a marketing tool to make people think Jive is more adaptable than it actually is. So could a 'good jiver' dance to a waltz, a salsa, to Dave Brubeck's 'Take 5'? And that's to the song and not regardless of it. Apperently the latter song was actually used in a musicality class!! No wonder this daft myth persists.
Not while a newbie on the forum like me is here to be attacked!
Though I'm not the only person here to query the wisdom of playing stuff like Lindy/swing tunes in a competition where you are not allowed to triple step in time with the music.

Don't you just love it when people twist your words
I think we have had a similar conversation on another thread

[jezzyjj]

Don't you just love it when people twist your words
I think we have had a similar conversation on another thread

Not sure which words are talking about.
And on the other thread, you agreed with me about this point that maybe we're not now agreeing with. I think!!

[Ghost]

Well seeing is the rhythm is what your feet are moving to, it's kind of fundamental.


That says it all really.

I've never actually seen him dance so I don't know if it's true or an in-joke that he has incredible footwork, but The Oracle (DavidB) certainly claims not to move his feet when dancing and I'm pretty sure his dancing has a lot of musicality

I can certainly dance with musicality whilst my feet are still, eg in a Crucifix into shimmy (What else can you do if the floor's packed?). I think Gadget's pretty much working on evolving this into an art form at the moment

Be Well,
Christopher

[Gadget]

I think Gadget's pretty much working on evolving this into an art form at the moment

Isn't it called "blues"?

{...art form? }

[Ghost]

Isn't it called "blues"?

Well it was, but then you started getting rid of all the fast bits, the bits where there's no eye contact etc.

{...art form? }

Bet there's a few ladies who'll agree with me

Be Well,
Christopher

[jezzyjj]

I've never actually seen him dance so I don't know if it's true or an in-joke that he has incredible footwork, but The Oracle (DavidB) certainly claims not to move his feet when dancing and I'm pretty sure his dancing has a lot of musicality

I can certainly dance with musicality whilst my feet are still, eg in a Crucifix into shimmy (What else can you do if the floor's packed?). I think Gadget's pretty much working on evolving this into an art form at the moment

Be Well,
Christopher

In Lindy, triple step is a basic part of the foot pattern, but I've seen excellent dancers elide that footwork and still do beautiful Lindy. But even though the footwork may be absent or paused the timing that the footwork indictates is still there.