Taken from another thread
The Programme that Bruce Forsythe introduced recently about the history of dance summed it up quite well - the "swing family" of dances are The American Dance Form.Originally Posted by ducasi
What makes a dance a "swing" dance anyway? What makes a dance a "jive"?
I'd guess that most ceroc these days (don't know about the past) isn't danced to swing or rock-n-roll music.
If you're interested here's a very brief history :
The change in the dance performed by the original Lindy Hoppers at the Savoy in the late 1920s is closely related to the change in music at that time. Jazz changed from two beats in the bar (like a march) to four beats in the bar & so it became smoother. Around the same time Louis Armstrong was becoming just about the most important Jazz musician (Duke Ellington fans might have something to say about that). Louis Armstrong is widely creditied with teaching the world to swing by subtly changing the timing of the notes he played (of course he probably nicked it off somebody else). Ellington popularised swing with his song "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing", but it wasn't until Benny Goodman took the white American population by storm that swing became the American dance, some 10 years after it began in Harlem.
Rock 'n Roll is decended from Lindy as is Boogie Woogie, Balboa and when it comes down to it so is modern jive (Jive is the English word originally used to describe Jazz). The difference is that MJ didn't stay with its origins and has used dance moves from anywhere and everywhere, partly reflecting the change in music in wider society. BUT if you see Lindy Hoppers or Rock 'N Rollers dance you will recognise many moves
Sorry if that was a bit dull.
Last edited by Lory; 5th-April-2006 at 09:05 AM. Reason: Tidying again ;)
Thanks, not dull at all...
I already knew some of the history, and so I know that MJ came from swing music and Lindy Hop. But beyond the family history, what makes a dance a swing?
When I look at Lindy, WCS and MJ, I see three clearly related but very different dances. Are WCS and MJ really "swing" dances?
WCS still has swing footwork, but MJ doesn't. So is it still "swing"?
(Sorry for this thread diversion... Maybe this should be in a new thread...)
Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story
Difficult to define. One definition from Skippy Blair is given here. This definition doesn't seem to imply you need to be dancing to swing music to be dancing swing. But then, on her own website she takes a strong view against non-swing music in competitions:
I think a particular problem for MJ is I'm not sure there's any accepted action you'd normally be doing on the swung eighths anyhow. Although the feel of a swung track is undeniably different, does it really make a difference to the dancing if the music is swung hard or straight eighths?From http://www.swingworld.com/articles/c...on_music.htm):
No matter how much you enjoy dancing Swing to Hanzel Martinez's "Love Potion #9" - it is still a Cha-Cha. Of course a Swing Dancer can dance Swing to it. It might even be one of your favorite songs, but hopefully NOT in a competition.
~snip~
Would Swing music be allowed in a Cha-Cha or Hustle competition? Of course not!
~snip~
It all boils down to: "Good SWING music - SWINGS!"
The other problem I have with characterising MJ is that to me, lots of it looks an awful lot like hustle. And yet the rhythm is completely different. (Heck, hustle's rhythm is completely different to everything!). Of course, WCS went through a phase where lots of people were complaining about the amount of hustle creeping in.
It's the music man ......
Very simple terms
MJ doesn't swing cos the music tends to go 1 and 2 and 3 and 4
Lindy can swing cos the music goes 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 - when you triple step you use the a not the and.
My knowledge of WCS is limited the three lessons I've had seem to be using swung triples but I can see it is confusing as it is danced to music that doesn't necessarily swing.
Swing dance is the generic term to cover the dance but you can only really swing if the music tells you to (hey davidf just said that)
MJ footwork is pretty much what we choose to make it I guess. If the music swings for me, then I'm sure that's reflected in the timing and form of my steps and body movements. It may not be elegant but I'm enjoying the feel of it.
My understanding is that swung eighths are usually more like 1&a2&a3&a4 (i.e. division of each beat into 3rds). The division you describe (into quarter beats) is more typical of jive, or indeed, samba.
But there is also a fair amount of debate about whether to define "swing dance" strictly according to music type. After all, what do you do if a dance works well with both swung and non-swung music? Quite a few top MJ tracks are cha-chas, after all.
Very few people do anything other than step on the main beat (the 1,2,3,4 above) - note the main beat is twice the speed of the Ceroc count. If you're only stepping on the main beat, I'm not sure how much difference it makes whether the eighth notes are divided 1&2&3&4 or 1&a2&a3&a4 or 1e&a2e&a3e&a4.
(Yes, you may feel you dance in a different way to swung music. But sad experience of watching video-clips shows it generally all looks exactly the same to an innocent bystander).
As I said very simple (and yes wrong : oops: ) . The and a chant is better but my ex drumming tutor gave me the stricter chant (very confusing) 1 e and da a 2 e and da a 3 e and da a 4 .......
For anyone who attended the day's workshop at RebelYell with Kyle and Sarah they covered where the swing is in WCS. It was probably the best teaching day I have been to. They covered more of the social dance element of the dance, talking about the send and receive elements.
It was interesting that they taught a whip up to 3 before breaking it down to teach. Alot of the teaching that I have taken on board breaks the move from 1 to 4 then from 5 to 8. Stopping on 3 then carrying on to 4, 5 to 6 made alot more sense. By the way this is not how it was called out load, rolling or otherwise.
That's a great article from Skippy. It reminded me at the US Open there is a competition between Lindy and WCS where they go head to head. Couples swap dances as well as dancers along the way. I have seen Jordan dance Lindy before and was interested to see the Swing element come into play when I watched him dance with Rena at Southport last year.
I friend of mine who is a fantastic Lindy dancer, danced with Robert C some time ago and said that he was easily one of the best leads she had ever experienced. She has danced quite a bit in Europe and America and knows a thing or two about Lindy and other dances.
If I 'swing'. That is, if I go in and out in a swingy way... then I am swinging. Who cares what watchers think?
...ah.... andrew - so you have been advised to CHANT as you dance - to get the rythym of the dance.....
I'll tell your Julia that - next time she complains about me doing that at the Lindy Class!
The thing is, that may be your definition of swing, but it's not the commonly accepted one. Does it matter? In many ways, no, but:If I 'swing'. That is, if I go in and out in a swingy way... then I am swinging. Who cares what watchers think?
It helps communication if people use the same terminology. The classic case where the terms cause confusion is in Ballroom, where "swing action" has a specific meaning in terms of body movement, and the "swing dances" are those with "swing action" (speaking very loosely, as I don't do ballroom!) Whereas musically, swing has a specific meaning (the eighth notes are "swung" towards the next beat), and traditionally the "swing dances" like Lindy were danced to music that swings. So you end up with two completely different definitions of "swing".
Depending on what you mean by "swing", if you decide MJ is a swing dance, you might decide certain moves, music or styling aren't really appropriate. It seems a lot of Lindy folks feel "if it isn't swing music, you're not dancing swing". Now I don't think MJ will ever be that prescriptive, but let's look at things the other way: we observe less-and-less MJ is danced to swing music, and there's very little new swing music coming out. So should we just accept the situation and let MJ move to the state where swing music is very much the exception, or should we say "no, MJ is a swing dance, we should try to educate the punters to enjoy swing music"?
Last edited by David Franklin; 5th-April-2006 at 11:09 AM.
Nope - that would be too much of a mouth full as it is when you're drumming it's just so that dummers like me can get used to when to hit the drum....ah.... andrew - so you have been advised to CHANT as you dance - to get the rythym of the dance.....
I'll tell your Julia that - next time she complains about me doing that at the Lindy Class!
For any new move the chant approach is useful, you'll learn soon enough to say it to yourself rather than out load - a guy on a US forum wrote that he'd stopped saying the chant out loud when a partner asked him to speak up a little so that she could follow it too.
OOOO Please Please Please let it be so
This is pretty much the way it went. Of course like with anything you could get awfully complicated about it but swing dancing came out just as any street dance develops.If you're interested here's a very brief history :
The change in the dance performed by the original Lindy Hoppers at the Savoy in the late 1920s is closely related to the change in music at that time. Jazz changed from two beats in the bar (like a march) to four beats in the bar & so it became smoother. Around the same time Louis Armstrong was becoming just about the most important Jazz musician (Duke Ellington fans might have something to say about that). Louis Armstrong is widely creditied with teaching the world to swing by subtly changing the timing of the notes he played (of course he probably nicked it off somebody else). Ellington popularised swing with his song "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing", but it wasn't until Benny Goodman took the white American population by storm that swing became the American dance, some 10 years after it began in Harlem.
Rock 'n Roll is decended from Lindy as is Boogie Woogie, Balboa and when it comes down to it so is modern jive (Jive is the English word originally used to describe Jazz). The difference is that MJ didn't stay with its origins and has used dance moves from anywhere and everywhere, partly reflecting the change in music in wider society. BUT if you see Lindy Hoppers or Rock 'N Rollers dance you will recognise many moves
Sorry if that was a bit dull.
It probably came through the fox trot and charleston and then influenced by the smoother actual swing of the music, as mentioned above, the dancers in Harlem took it further, (Shorty George etc). It was also called the Jitterbug Jive. Then new kids took it on in the '50s as rock and roll (the same dancers who are in the "Benny Goodman Story" are in "Rock Around the Clock" - basically the same dance but more rockin' music).
MJ came from this and just as the jazz, swing and jive music has taken on different influences and fused or spread out so the dance has. Also it started as a "street" dance but when someone then teaches the dance they usually attempt to standardize the moves and name them so as to communicate this to their pupils and so it probably has travelled differently through the passing on of the teacher's personal styles.
I was told that MJ came to England from leroc in France. If this is true it would make sense as I have been to the Caveau De La Huchette in Paris where the American GIs are supposed to have first taught the French girls to swing and this would add another via thus changing it slightly.
Hope that makes sense, I'm still jet lagged...
I was dancing with a swing dancer in LA and through in some Ceroc and it worked by the way.
I guess that depends what you want for the future of MJ.
I don't think MJ currently is a swing dance; it is a swing-derived dance. You can dance it to swing music, and to lots of other music.
There are various swing dances, and between them they cover swing music. I think there is other music for which there is no defined parter dance, but for which MJ is suitable.
I think MJ may be better off being a "swing-derived improvisational partner dance to modern music" (with "modern music" changing over time).
I think that sums up well and when you mj to a swing song you tend to "swing it", if it has a latin feel you can mj with a latin feel - it is very adaptable and if you are an 'actor' you can really add that last ingredient and interpret the music you are dancing to.
WCS is still changing alot. The old style of the man stepping out of the slot has changed in part. There is alot more flashlighting in the dance. There has also been an effort to take out the circular motion in basics like a whip to eliminate part of the Lindy like style to move. When you dance with different partners you can see and feel the differences alot more.
I remember coming across something once upon a time that talked about one of the things that was fairly common to swing dancing was the "in & out" nature - i.e. we start apart, come together, and then go apart again (not so much in bal), but visible even when some face to face charlston is done, and blatently a part of lindy.
This is as opposed to stuff like foxtrot, waltz, tango etc which tend to be danced in in a close position.
Anyway, using this definition MJ would be a swing dance.
However as has been discussed this would only be one definition of swing dancing, and by no means it is complete.
I've seen several justifications for different types of music being superior for dancing than other types of music. The common thread is that "the music I like has to be better than the music I don't like".
Your own taste in music is more important to you than some teachers opinion.
Having said that, you should listen to what other people say, even if you disagree with them. You might be able to apply (or not apply) some of their reasoning to what you do.
David
Is this helpful?
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm
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