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Thread: Blues Championships

  1. #21
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    In dance competitions, "Open" usually means open to any type of style, not to any person.
    How about the "UK Open Jive Competition" I was at in Blackpool recently?
    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    So you're saying that the UK is the nation, so someone living in Ireland in British, even though they don't live in Britain?
    In Northern Ireland, yes, they are normally termed British (though sometimes also called Irish, or Northern Irish.) Even though they don't live in Britain.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  2. #22
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    In dance competitions, "Open" usually means open to any type of style, not to any person.
    You sure? That's certainly not my understanding, and looking at the history of the Blackpool Open, for example, you find:
    From the Blackpool Dance Festival website
    As more and more foreign competitors came to Blackpool, it was decided to organise a small Festival for British competitors only and, in November 1975,the first British Closed Dance Festival was held in the Empress Ballroom. The name has now been changed to the British National Championships.
    which seems to support "Open" tying to nationality rather than dance style.

    Of course, "open" often refers to professional/amateur status; in the MJ scene, one of the original key differences between the "UK Open Jive Comp" (run by C2D) and the "Ceroc" champs was that the former had an category open to teachers and other professionals.

  3. #23
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    The UK Blues Championships sounds good to me, or the National Blues Championships, I guess it depends who you would open the competition to, if you are opening it to everyone, then there is nothing to stop you calling it the World Blues Championships, or the International Blues Championships.
    I think thats part of the problem. The credibility of the competition would depend on the quality of dancers taking part and the judges. If I got N&N and Val & Dave as judges (if only ) and the likes of Alan & Sarah competing .... then I would feel more comfortable using such a grandious title.

    On the other hand ... I suppose everyone has to start somewhere .. maybe IT.. MIGHT .. JUST .. WORK ...(apologies to "Young Frankenstein")

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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Share the same concern. The point came home when I was trying to explain ten differences of Blues to MJ on a workshop ... its far more internaly focused ... and the essence of it (IMHO) is the feel and connection between the two partners. How you demonstrate that externally I'm not sure.
    What were the differences you came up with then?

    I have been taught some blues by Gus, Adam, Marc & Rachel, Howard & Nicola, Dave & Val, and I'm sure a couple of others. I'm still trying to work out how it differs from MJ.
    My verson of what "blues" is seems to differ from most of these folk - they are more "showcase" and "open" in their dancing. I'm all for contrast to provide interest, but I don't think that conrast from 'open' to 'closed' really works in blues. I think that there is too much stepping away from your partner as 'perperation' for the next move.

    To me, one person should always be 'flashlighting' their partner at every point in every move - sometimes both, sometimes swapping between them, but as soon as you break this, then the 'connection' that makes blues "blues" is broken.
    I also think that in bluse, if the follower is led to step back then the lead should shadow them rather than mirror them. It keeps the connection and provides a much more 'intemate' dance.

    But I'm not a "blues champion" - this is just the way I like dancing blues. {actually, it's just the way I like dancing in general }

  5. #25
    Registered User Yogi_Bear's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    So, here are ten differences.
    1 In blues the music is king - what the dancers do has to, above all, respect the music.
    2 In blues the tempos are much, much slower.
    3 Blues has a closer and more intimate connection, much as in Argentine tango when danced in close hold.
    4 Blues can be fully improvised.
    5 Blues has some standard patterns and even moves, but they are not essential elements of dancing blues.
    6 Blues allows for a much greater degree of interplay between the dancers.
    7 Blues is more grounded.
    8 In order to make blues look good you do not necessarily have to do very much at all, certainly not produce varied and complex moves.
    9 Blues, more than MJ, emphasises the different roles of the male and female dancers - as does Argentine tango.
    10 Blues offers the chance to develop as a dancer beyond the constraints of MJ.

    These are of course very much off the cuff and internded to stimulate debate....

  6. #26
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    Re: Blues Championships

    These are differences?

  7. #27
    Registered User Yogi_Bear's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    These are differences?
    Hmm, I think so....or where have I been the last few years?

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    To me, one person should always be 'flashlighting' their partner at every point in every move - sometimes both, sometimes swapping between them, but as soon as you break this, then the 'connection' that makes blues "blues" is broken.
    Not sure that I agree. What about 'open'Blues moves. The connection does not always have to be thigh to thigh ... its the feel of the dance thats counts, how you pick up the beat and make/allow your partner to interpret that beat. Watch someone like Laura ( as many guys find themselves doing ) ... she will take the beat and do something wonderfull with her body while the guy takes a 'back seat'. Dont see much flashlighting there.

  9. #29
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Not sure that I agree. What about 'open'Blues moves. The connection does not always have to be thigh to thigh ... its the feel of the dance thats counts, how you pick up the beat and make/allow your partner to interpret that beat. Watch someone like Laura ( as many guys find themselves doing ) ... she will take the beat and do something wonderfull with her body while the guy takes a 'back seat'. Dont see much flashlighting there.
    I was using the term as I had it explained to me from DavidB: an embedded flashlight in your chest that illuminates your partner.

    In this case, you would be focused on her; whole body facing and appreciating - maintaing the connection.

    I'm not saying that it has to be thigh to thigh all the time, but what I keep seeing when watching folk 'blues' is close - rock, rock, rock - break - move - close - rock, rock, rock.... It's that "break" that spoils it for me. I have spent many {delightfull} dances trying to work out ways to insert moves and interest without that jarring "oh, a 'move' now" interuption.

  10. #30
    Registered User Yogi_Bear's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    ............I'm not saying that it has to be thigh to thigh all the time, but what I keep seeing when watching folk 'blues' is close - rock, rock, rock - break - move - close - rock, rock, rock.... It's that "break" that spoils it for me. I have spent many {delightfull} dances trying to work out ways to insert moves and interest without that jarring "oh, a 'move' now" interuption.
    I'm not sure I've understood what you mean here, but I would suggest just trying to follow what the music suggests, and how your partner seems to be interpreting the space you give her, thinking about interest but not necessarily inserting moves, as such.....

  11. #31
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    You sure? That's certainly not my understanding, and looking at the history of the Blackpool Open, for example
    Well, I've been to competitions where people have been disqualified for the style of dance they were doing, as it wasn't an "open" competition, so they had to stick to the style of dance of the competition.

    If its a Nationality thing, then sure that makes the UK Open a contradiction in terms too?


    And as for being termed British when you don't live in Great Britain, if I was Irish, or from the Isle of Mann or the Channel Islands, I'd complain like crazy!

  12. #32
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I'm not saying that it has to be thigh to thigh all the time, but what I keep seeing when watching folk 'blues' is close - rock, rock, rock - break - move - close - rock, rock, rock.... It's that "break" that spoils it for me. I have spent many {delightfull} dances trying to work out ways to insert moves and interest without that jarring "oh, a 'move' now" interuption.
    Sorry, not sure I understood, are you saying you don't like breaks in the music, and you try to dance through them? If so, euuuuuccchhhhh!!!!!! Breaks are what make a dance interesting!

  13. #33
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    If its a Nationality thing, then sure that makes the UK Open a contradiction in terms too?
    Not really. You said "open" usually referred to dance styles, so I provided two different counter-examples, one where "Open" implied a lack of restriction on nationality, and one where it implied a lack of restriction on professional status.

    I am still dubious that "Open" usually means "open to all styles" in dance competitions; I'm not sure I've ever seen it used that way unless as a contrast to specifically qualified style divisions. (e.g. you might have WCS, Lindy, Shag and an "Open" Swing division). Generally the rules of the dance styles are "common" to all the competition categories, in the same sense that the US Tennis Open is open to all competitors, but you're still expected to play tennis, and not, say, golf.

    Most relevantly for MJ, this is reflected in the rules of the all 4 main competitions:

    C2D Advanced Category (No open category, but advanced is described as open to all): 70% modern jive is required.
    Ceroc Open Category: The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive such as Ceroc.
    LeRoc 2000 Open Category: 70% of dancing must be recognisable as Modern Jive.
    Britroc Open Category: The dance must be recognised as modern jive with a clearly demonstrated leader and follower.

  14. #34
    Registered User Chicklet's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    .

    If its a Nationality thing, then sure that makes the UK Open a contradiction in terms too?
    AFAIK UK Open in many sports (and other competitions) usually means held in the UK but Open to allcomers, (think Wimbledon, Golf etc..). UK closed has historically often meant participation allowed by invitation or only if a member of a particular (set of) club (s).

  15. #35
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicklet
    AFAIK UK Open in many sports (and other competitions) usually means held in the UK but Open to allcomers, (think Wimbledon, Golf etc..). UK closed has historically often meant participation allowed by invitation or only if a member of a particular (set of) club (s).
    Good point that I missed - thanks.

  16. #36
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    And as for being termed British when you don't live in Great Britain, if I was Irish, or from the Isle of Mann or the Channel Islands, I'd complain like crazy!
    Sorry for continuing this off-topic discussion...

    If you are from Hawaii, you're both Hawaiian, plus American, despite not actually living in America.

    This is because there's no word to describe being from the USA besides "American".

    Likewise, there's no work to describe being from the UK besides "British".

    Folks from the Isle of Mann and the Channel Islands aren't "British" as it is commonly understood.

    Strangely enough the residents of the Falkland Islands call themselves "British".

    Those from the Republic of Ireland are never called British.

    There have been more than complaints over whether those from Northern Ireland are "British" or not.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear
    'm not sure I've understood what you mean here, but I would suggest just trying to follow what the music suggests, and how your partner seems to be interpreting the space you give her, thinking about interest but not necessarily inserting moves, as such.....
    There ain't much (physical) space in a close blues hold for much interpreting But I get what you mean - which is why I have a slightly different view of 'blues' than most teachers of the subject:
    Most "moves" {I've seen} taught in blues are taken from the standard Ceroc lexicon - they all start with a step back. So you go from a 'blues hold' into a step back, into a move, into a step back and back into the blues hold. Better dancers/teachers eliminate the last step back and blend the move into a blues hold, but this first step back seems to be ingrained

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    Sorry, not sure I understood, are you saying you don't like breaks in the music, and you try to dance through them? If so, euuuuuccchhhhh!!!!!! Breaks are what make a dance interesting!
    oops - sorry: I wasn't thinking in terms of what the music was doing, but what the dancers were doing - "break" in this context means breaking away from your partner or breaking away from the 'close' move.

    Normally the dancers 'break' in the phrase before a musical break so that they can do something with it other than freeze or be limited in the pose they strike.

    {I look forward to a dance some time where I can show you just how interesting the breaks can be }

  18. #38
    The Oracle
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    Likewise, there's no work to describe being from the UK besides "British".
    Yukish?

  19. #39
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by TiggsTours
    And as for being termed British when you don't live in Great Britain, if I was Irish, or from the Isle of Mann or the Channel Islands, I'd complain like crazy!
    And if you called some people in NI Irish, you could find yourself in a lot of trouble.

    Note - Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two different countries. And I'm not getting into the politics of it all...

    But yes, have any comps inclusive of NI please, you never know, give us a few years and we might even have some competitors!

  20. #40
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Blues Championships

    My take on it all is that the event was named "Open N West Blues Champs" ... then anyone from across the country could enter, dancing Blues. If It was just "N West Blues Champs" then only dancers from the N West would be able to enter. Does that make some kind of sense?

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