Cost of Workshops

[Gus]

Whats going on?? I know I'm a bit out of the scene but the cost of 'local' workshops seems to have gone throug the roof in some areas. I remember that even if I got the likes of Amir or Viktor, the max I could charge was about £27. Swinging the Blues with the legendary N&N AND Simon S was only £30 ... and that included the evening freestyle

So .... £30 for a local workshop with a couple of fairly new teachers? Thats apperently the cost for some workshops up North. (OK ... I'm a bit miffed that our workshops are only £25) .... but are punters ready to pay £30 for teachers without a national rep? How much do your workshops cost?

[clevedonboy]

Graeme & Ann charge £18 for a 4 hour Lindy workshop. The WCS workshop at St Bons in Bristol with Cat is £25 for 3 hours.

The more pertinent point though is value for money - I get a lot from the Lindy workshops but I wouldn't from the WCS so I won't be doing that.

I take your point about reputation, but do they have a good rep locally? They may be great teachers who havn't made it onto the national scene.

[TA Guy]

Workshops down here are £65 pound a couple done thru the major organisation.
Simon Selman for swing, or whatever that couple is from Strictly Come Dancing (or one of those dance proggies, can't remember) who are doing the Latin one down here. Or just a local teacher for a beginners workshop.... Always £65, which seems a bit odd.

[Lynn]

There are so many variables in workshops. Duration being one of them (eg I am going to a Tango 'workshop' next Fri - its £10 - but its only for an hour.)

The recent Ceroc workshops in Belfast were 2 hours each - but there were various price combinations of doing one workshop, 2 workshops and party, full weekend package etc.

I would say it would be difficult to compare on teachers rep unless you had two workshops, same venue, same market, same length of time, with either a 'local' or 'national' teacher - then see if there was a difference in cost and/or attendance. And even then other factors would come into play - eg other workshops on the day locally, or if there was a big event like a weekender on.

To some extent also I think workshops are priced to meet the market - the workshops I used to run here in Belfast (with visiting teachers) were much cheaper than they would have been with the same teachers over there, but they needed to be at a price that people new to MJ would be happy paying and comparable with other dance styles (esp salsa) cost of workshops.

If organisers put costs up and still sell out all their spaces in a workshop, then I guess they will continue to do that. If people feel they are getting value for money in terms of content and teaching, regardless of how 'known' the teacher is, then they will continue to go.

Workshops down here are £65 pound a couple done thru the major organisation.

Sounds to me like you are maybe talking about private lessons rather than workshops? If you mean per hour that is.

[TA Guy]

Sounds to me like you are maybe talking about private lessons rather than workshops?

No, workshops, I think about a dozen couples (not exactly sure, it may be more). Two teachers (or sometimes a teacher and a demonstrator), for three hours.

[Lynn]

No, workshops, I think about a dozen couples (not exactly sure, it may be more). Two teachers (or sometimes a teacher and a demonstrator), for three hours.

Sorry, its just I've been quoted that price for private lessons so that was in my head, and the cost 'per couple' was throwing me. I think for most MJ workshops even if you have to find a partner to book with, its still cost 'per person' not 'per couple'. I don't suppose anyone would charge a price of £32.50 pp (the £65 per couple), it would be either £30 or £35.

If something is done through an organisation, then they would probably have a standard cost, no matter who the teacher was. If they didn't then the lower cost for a less well known teacher would send a message of 'this teacher isn't as good', when they could be excellent.

For me its the quality of the teaching and the ability of the teacher to apply their knowledge and experience in the most helpful way to the group they have on the day that marks the 'value' of any workshop. So clearly a more experienced teacher will be at an advantage, but its experience and teaching skill that counts, not 'national recognition' (though I acknowledge that many of the 'big names' are known because of their experience and reputation for good teaching.)

[Gus]

I would say it would be difficult to compare on teachers rep unless you had two workshops, same venue, same market, same length of time, with either a 'local' or 'national' teacher - then see if there was a difference in cost and/or attendance.

Ok ... the point I was trying to make is "Nigel & Nina" workshop £30, Gus workshop £30, local Ceroc Instructor £30 .... where do you go? Sorry, but I don't know any 'local' instructors who could compete with the likes of N&N, Viktor, Amir etc.

{ODA Mode ON}
Now, the question is, if you are in (say) N Wales, and you never get to see N&N, are you prepared to pay the same (or more) for someone who isn't as good simply because you have little alternative? If you look at it on a 'value for money' basis, you are getting a poorer deal ... but if the product is there ... then you have to pay whatever is charged.

Its a bit like going into your local and it failing to serve the nectar of the Gods, i.e. Marstons Pedigree. Instead, the only draft ale is is the vastly inferior Boddingtons ... for which you have to pay MORE for. Do you refuse and go thirsty or pay the extra schekels and just be thankful that at least you are able to get a real ale at all?
{ODA Mode OFF}

[Lynn]

Now, the question is, if you are in (say) N Wales, and you never get to see N&N, are you prepared to pay the same (or more) for someone who isn't as good simply because you have little alternative? If you look at it on a 'value for money' basis, you are getting a poorer deal ... but if the product is there ... then you have to pay whatever is charged.

If you are somewhere (say) NI, and you never get to see N&N... then you compare the cost of a local workshop, with cost of a workshop with N&N elsewhere which might be the same, but you have to add on travel, accomodation etc... so which is better value for money?

A local workshop in the morning, and a N&N workshop in the afternoon in the same venue at the same cost - or on at the same time in two nearby venues - then yes, people would probably feel they were getting better 'value for money' in the N&N one - but I think it would still be more a case of 'we don't get to see them often, we can go to our local instructor anytime' factor, more than cost.

[spindr]

Workshops down here are £65 pound a couple done thru the major organisation.

That's a coincidence -- it's the same price that www.mojive.com charge

SpinDr

[Russell Saxby]

Ok ... the point I was trying to make is "Nigel & Nina" workshop £30, Gus workshop £30, local Ceroc Instructor £30 .... where do you go?

Ask

N&N, Viktor, Amir etc.

to put their price up to £50 and problem solved

[Russell Saxby]

Its a bit like going into your local and it failing to serve the nectar of the Gods, i.e. Marstons Pedigree. Instead, the only draft ale is is the vastly inferior Boddingtons ... for which you have to pay MORE for. Do you refuse and go thirsty or pay the extra schekels and just be thankful that at least you are able to get a real ale at all?
{ODA Mode OFF}

Apparently if you add lemonade to Boddingtons it froths all over the place, or so I found out from the rather partonising barman at Marconis last night... and there was me trying to be sensible... had I seen the Best pump (it had a rather small handle) I would have of course, asked for that in the first place..

Anyone else have the same problem adding lemonade to Boddingtons???

Oh and we charge £25 for Beginners and £27 for Intermediates, but I shall be putting that up to £30, if not £50, methinks I am worth it - free kiss with every workshop don't you know.

[Minnie M]

There was a time when workshops meant - 2 hours (approx) in the morning - a lunch break (with lunch 'sometimes' being provided) and 2 hours (approx) in the afternoon and you were given a video diary of the day to go home with

Cost £20 and that was only about 4/5 years ago

Even if this was £50 by today's rates having spent all day + a video I would still say this would be good value for money

[djtrev]

Can I just ask you a question Gus.
What in your opinion would N&N give to a lesson that you wouldn't,given that the workshop is lets just say Advanced Moves

[Gus]

Can I just ask you a question Gus.
What in your opinion would N&N give to a lesson that you wouldn't,given that the workshop is lets just say Advanced Moves

It comes back to how the teacher training you was trained. Nigel is a professional musician and has a very acute sense of timing and musical interpretation. Nina is an experienced profesional dancer. They have both spent a lot of time researching other dance style nd developing their own dancing. That shows in their teaching.

I'm like most CTA/Blitz/Mo'jive teachers. I was trained to teach a forumula, and that includes workshops. Most of the 'style' moves have been culled from workshops by Viktor/N&N/Amir etc. To develop further than that program means investing time in looking at principles, other dance styles and experimenting, not with what just looks good, but how to communicate that (being a trainer really helps).

All too many of the instructors teaching these 'advanced' workshops do not have a deep understanding of body bio-mechnics, dance principles, beat structure etc. etc. So, you would probably go away pretty happy from one of my workshops ... till you saw what extra level of comprehension and anaylsis you would received from N&N. (IMHO)

[djtrev]

I have just been watching a video of N&N/A&R called Advanced Jive.
Now I am assuming that all the moves are commonly known therefore one assumes that someone,such as yourself could teach those moves.
But it seems to me that the real difference is the way that "professionals" like N&N can put those same moves into a particular track in a completely different way to the your average MJ punter.
I am assuming that is a different workshop altogether called Musicality.Right or wrong

[Lynn]

Nigel is a professional musician and has a very acute sense of timing and musical interpretation. Nina is an experienced profesional dancer. They have both spent a lot of time researching other dance style nd developing their own dancing. That shows in their teaching.

This is what I was referring to when I said about the experience of the teachers. Since we are using the N&N example, its all the extra bits of experience that they can bring in, that informs their teaching and brings some extra factors in that a different teacher might not have. Different teachers can bring different experience and I think its one of the great strengths of MJ that it can draw on such a wide range of dance styles and skills and make it all work together.

I have just been watching a video of N&N/A&R called Advanced Jive.

I don't think you can compare a workshop with a video.

You could compare a weekend workshop of 300 odd people with a video as what the teacher delivers will possibly be similar. But the whole point IMO of workshops with say 20 - 30 people is that the teacher adapts and adjust what they are teaching and how they choose to communicate to suit that particular group of people. If its just teaching a routine of moves, then its not a workshop, its just a series of classes put together and is not good value for money no matter who is teaching!

Any workshops that I have been involved in organising meant spent with the teacher talking about what the current levels of experience were with the group of people, particular areas they might like to work on, selection of moves that would build on existing knowledge, planning of breaks and time allocation, best use of the space and venue. In addition on the day the teacher would be checking how the class were finding the content and adjusting the content and delivery to suit.

[djtrev]

..... If its just teaching a routine of moves, then its not a workshop, its just a series of classes put together and is not good value for money no matter who is teaching!......

Then in that case Lynn all the workshops I have attended;well three actually;weren't!!!

[Lynn]

Then in that case Lynn all the workshops I have attended;well three actually;weren't!!!

Well I'm glad to say that all the ones I have attended in Belfast have been!

[Gus]

But the whole point IMO of workshops with say 20 - 30 people is that the teacher adapts and adjust what they are teaching and how they choose to communicate to suit that particular group of people. If its just teaching a routine of moves, then its not a workshop, its just a series of classes put together and is not good value for money no matter who is teaching!

totally agree. I did Viktor's style workshop three times, and took away new stuff each time. You can't compare the 'workshops' at weekenders ... they just tend to be routine based. If you want to learn (yet) more moves, fine .... but I'm hard pressed to see how you can teach dance principles and movement to an amorphous crowd of 300+ punters of vastly differing ability.

[TA Guy]

That's a coincidence -- it's the same price that www.mojive.com charge

SpinDr

You got me