What makes a swing dance 'swing'?

[David Franklin]

I've seen several justifications for different types of music being superior for dancing than other types of music. The common thread is that "the music I like has to be better than the music I don't like".

But of course. To paraphrase Heinlein:

"Funk is far superior to swing."
"By whose judgement?"
"Why mine! After all, whose judgement should be more important to me than my own?"

I have a feeling I may have played ODA too subtly in this thread if people think I'm personally in favour of a mass swing revival.

[TA Guy]

The thing is, that may be your definition of swing, but it's not the commonly accepted one. Does it matter? In many ways, no, but:

It helps communication if people use the same terminology. The classic case where the terms cause confusion is in Ballroom, where "swing action" has a specific meaning in terms of body movement, and the "swing dances" are those with "swing action" (speaking very loosely, as I don't do ballroom!) Whereas musically, swing has a specific meaning (the eighth notes are "swung" towards the next beat), and traditionally the "swing dances" like Lindy were danced to music that swings. So you end up with two completely different definitions of "swing".

Depending on what you mean by "swing", if you decide MJ is a swing dance, you might decide certain moves, music or styling aren't really appropriate. It seems a lot of Lindy folks feel "if it isn't swing music, you're not dancing swing". Now I don't think MJ will ever be that prescriptive, but let's look at things the other way: we observe less-and-less MJ is danced to swing music, and there's very little new swing music coming out. So should we just accept the situation and let MJ move to the state where swing music is very much the exception, or should we say "no, MJ is a swing dance, we should try to educate the punters to enjoy swing music"?

Back when I was ultra-keen Like a lot of peeps, I did do a little research into the history of Ceroc, which, of course, led right back to the Charleston and all that.
As I understand it (from swingnet), the formal definition of 'swing dancing' goes something like 'a slotted or circular dance danced to 6-beat or 8-beat music pattern.... + 4-Beat rhythm breaks....' (plus a bit more not so relevant to this discussion and some addendums http://www.usaswingnet.com/what_is_swing.htm). Using that definition then sometimes MJ is swing, sometimes it isn't. Personally I think nailing it down it A) Pointless, and B) Impossible.

I am swingy when I dance, therefore I dance swing. That'll do me.

[pjay]

Back when I was ultra-keen Like a lot of peeps, I did do a little research into the history of Ceroc, which, of course, led right back to the Charleston and all that.

So you didn't get back as far as cake walks in the late 1900's then?

[TA Guy]

So you didn't get back as far as cake walks in the late 1900's then?

I don't even know what a cake walk is. LOL.
I got to the bit where it more or less said the Jitterbug/Lindy/Swing routines developed were done as a parody of the Charleston and I seem to remember all the stuff before that became a bit vague, so I think I went out dancing instead

I should say I found it all fascinating, especially when you leave the actual dance pages (all internet research of course) and get a more rounded sociological viewpoint of what was going on. If I was twenty again and choosing careers, who knows!

[MartinHarper]

So you didn't get back as far as cake walks in the late 1900's then?

I liked the Salsa Bitch description of Ceroc as (paraphrasing) white dancing derived from black dancing parodying white dancing.

It'd be interesting to video a room of MJers (or those doing any dance, for that matter) and take out the sound. Can you identify where the beat is and whether it's swung, just from the way people are dancing?

[Whitebeard]

Is this helpful?
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3wcs1.htm

Who builds web pages like this ?

[pjay]

I don't even know what a cake walk is. LOL.
I got to the bit where it more or less said the Jitterbug/Lindy/Swing routines developed were done as a parody of the Charleston and I seem to remember all the stuff before that became a bit vague, so I think I went out dancing instead

I should say I found it all fascinating, especially when you leave the actual dance pages (all internet research of course) and get a more rounded sociological viewpoint of what was going on. If I was twenty again and choosing careers, who knows!

Cakewalking was the first instance I know of of the black people laughing at their white masters - from late 1800's... it didn't tend to be a partner dance in the way we do them... anyway, the slave owners used to get together and have competitions with their slaves, the winners' master would win the cake (possibly, but I'm not sure, the origins of "to take the cake")... anyway the people that I learned this from tell me that we really have no idea whether or not the masters realised that this whole thing was about parody of the way the white people did things.

[ducasi]

... As I understand it (from swingnet), the formal definition of 'swing dancing' goes something like 'a slotted or circular dance danced to 6-beat or 8-beat music pattern.... + 4-Beat rhythm breaks....' (plus a bit more not so relevant to this discussion and some addendums http://www.usaswingnet.com/what_is_swing.htm). ...

Interesting article there...

Here is the definition you paraphrase...

"Swing" is an all-American, couples, rhythm dance consisting primarily of 6-Beat and 8-Beat patterns that cover either a circular or slotted area on the dance floor. Swing incorporates the use of underarm turns, side passes, push breaks, and whips, plus "4-Beat" rhythm beaks, syncopations and extensions of the same.

It seems though that they had problems with that as other dance styles could merge in with "Swing" and still be defined as Swing, so for competition use, they added this criteria...

If you can identify the dance as something OTHER than Swing, it cannot be considered part of the required percentage of Swing.

It seems the main intention of this was to clearly separate Swing from Hustle.

But apparently this still wasn't good enough, and so Skippy Blair came up with this new definition after spending a year doing research...

If a Leader doing one form of Swing can dance with a Follower doing another form of Swing - with only slight adjustments in style and tempo - then it is Swing.

I've got to say that's one of the most useless definitions of anything I've ever seen.

What's interesting though about all these definitions is that, by my reading, they make little mention of the music.

Thus it's quite all right to dance "swing" to pretty much any 4/4-time music... Which must include latin, tango, blues, pop, ... in fact, pretty much everything we do our MJ dancing to.

My understanding is that what sets swing music and swing dancing apart is swung-eighths or a similar "triple" in the music which is mirrored in the dance by triple-stepping in some way... Am I wrong?

What I'm wondering is, if the music doesn't have swung eighths, should dancers be doing triple-stepping swing footwork? Isn't it going against musicality to triple step when the music doesn't ask for it?

[clevedonboy]

Thus it's quite all right to dance "swing" to pretty much any 4/4-time music... Which must include latin, tango, blues, pop, ... in fact, pretty much everything we do our MJ dancing to.

My understanding is that what sets swing music and swing dancing apart is swung-eighths or a similar "triple" in the music which is mirrored in the dance by triple-stepping in some way... Am I wrong?

I would agree with you - even when you aren't using a triple step pattern, you'll still feel it & it may well be reflected in another part of your body

What I'm wondering is, if the music doesn't have swung eighths, should dancers be doing triple-stepping swing footwork? Isn't it going against musicality to triple step when the music doesn't ask for it?

Much "non swing" music does have a "feel" that swung triples work with e.g. "Feel Good Inc" but "Sway" by Michael Buble I find difficult as the Cha Cha Cha rhythm is so strong. That may be because I'm learning Cha Cha Cha as well so that bit of the wiring in my brain is getting agitated.

I don't know if WCS dancers modify their steps when dancing to Love Potion No 9, to reflect the rhythm, I found it dragged me to unswung triple steps when I played it just.

[MartinHarper]

What I'm wondering is, if the music doesn't have swung eighths, should dancers be doing triple-stepping swing footwork? Isn't it going against musicality to triple step when the music doesn't ask for it?

There are options. Probably most faithful to the music is to use "straight" non-swung triples, or you can use different footwork patterns.

Alternatively, you can use swung triples anyway. Depending on what's going on in the music, swung triples can work nicely, as if they're layered on top of the actual music. Same way some remixes take a swing song and smack a clubby beat over it and it kinda works, you can sometimes take a clubby beat and put swing footwork into it, and it works. And, sometimes it doesn't.

[Mr Cool]

Its the music the right track, combined with the dancers that make a dance swing.
It certainly has little to do with triple steps. (most people look silly doing triples to fast music) single stepping is a smoother way to dance swing For the majority of music.
This gives you time to add variations and musicality to suit the music.
The original savoy ballroom lindy hoppers (see the the hells A popping tapes) didnt bother with triples
.

[clevedonboy]

Its the music the right track, combined with the dancers that make a dance swing.

Umm I really don't know what on earth you are talking about. There's a type of music called swing & there are dances that go with it. That is principally what swing dance is. If people choose to include other things in the definition that's fine by me (in much the same way as Blues dancing is not danced only to Blues music). But to then go on to try to tell us that it really is defined by "the right music with the right dancers" is errant nonsense.

It certainly has little to do with triple steps. (most people look silly doing triples to fast music) single stepping is a smoother way to dance swing For the majority of music.

Single time steps in swing dance are considerably less "smooth" than triples - to confirm this just watch someone dance East Coast Swing. Single time has its place in Lindy but not in terms of a basic step danced as Rock Step Slow Slow until the music reaches in excess of 180 BPM for most dancers & 200 BPM for the better ones. I'd also contend that in WCS if you replaced the triples with singles, it would not look cool.

The original savoy ballroom lindy hoppers (see the the hells A popping tapes) didnt bother with triples
.

Triple steps appear in the Jam from Hellzapoppin along with a huge amount of anything goes footwork. I discount this scene though (great as it is) as it is certainly not a representation of social Lindy.

Triple stepping is absolutely fundamental to Lindy Hop. Check out the other famous scene in Hellzapoppin at the swimming pool (watch the birdy featring Dean Collins) or the recreation by Spike Lee in Malcolm X ( http://poy.no/files/vintage/malcolm x.avi ) and you'll see lots of triples, doubles and charlestons (& Flying Home is pretty fast.)

The step step step pattern is really popular because it allows easier travel across the floor. As an example take the Lindy Turn - in triple time rock step triple step (180 degree turn) step step (180 degree turn during those steps) triple step, smooth and grounded, in single time Rock Step Slow (180 degree turn) Step Step (180 degree turn during those steps) Slow - a valid move but much more difficult to pull off in the first place and it has a definite "lurch" to it as the intitial turn on the first slow is more of a pivot.

[Lindsay]

I think there's a confusion between (1) what music is swing, and (2) what makes swing dance music "swing". Re. the latter, not all swing dance music really 'swings' - in the musical definition of the word. Frankie Manning gave a talk about this at Herrang, and some of the earlier posts on this thread are fairly accurate.

[Mr Cool]

It is not the (SIMPLE) mechanics of the dance that make it swing you can teach dancers a lindy turn and a circle in an hour but they won't swing.
It is the connection between the dancers and the music, their style and musicality that make it swing.
Too often I see so called lindy hoppers at events like
The Swing jam, Savoy ball, Camp Savoy, Woodside Sultans of Swing yes I have been to them all.
People go through choreographed moves using triple steps and quite frankly they resemble children doing a bouncy version of ring a ring a roses
The dance is based on eight and six beat moves you can dance it in single double triple or half time better still a mixture of them all.
Many people get distracted trying to fit in triples most fit them in at the expense of musicality.



I am always amazed by the fact that teachers teach triples and then dance socialy without them.
Steve Mitcheal and Ryan for example
As for West coast the slow music lends itself to many footwork variations otherwise you may fall asleep from boredom watch Paul Warden.

Look forward to seeing you Dance in time to Sing sing with Triples

[MartinHarper]

I absolutely agree that you don't need to dance triples to dance Lindy, but:

Look forward to seeing you Dance in time to Sing sing with Triples.

I'm not sure how you'd be able to tell. Lindy triples are often slidy, and neither foot ever leaves the floor, you don't necessarilly have complete weight transfers, and at high tempos it's all happening very fast. For me, the defining features of a Lindy triple are that both feet move, and that weight gets transferred over the course of two beats, rather than on a single beat. Those features remain at high tempos.

most people look silly doing triples to fast music

I have seen folks dancing distinct triples at excessively high tempos, but I think they were doing Boogie Woogie, not Lindy. I'm not great at distinguishing between different swing dances, so I could well be wrong. I agree that it looks funny, but I think that's kinda the point. Besides, swing dances have a tradition of looking silly: any dance with Suzy Qs is not meant to be taken too seriously.

[pjay]

As part of a Lindy Troupe we did a lot of work on being able to do triples at very high speeds - not that we always danced is that way, but as part of our development - taking a whole pile of technique work that we did and then trying to keep up the technique when the music gets really fast.

I think the fastest we ever got pushed to (with tripples) was a little over 300 bpm (if you ask me this should be strictly balboa teritory).

[Andreas]

a little over 300 bpm (if you ask me this should be strictly balboa teritory).

I'd agree with that. Sound silly enough to have me involved, though. Except, my Lindy is more than rusty and Balboa needs just as much work

[clevedonboy]

Too often I see so called lindy hoppers .. People go through choreographed moves using triple steps and quite frankly they resemble children doing a bouncy version of ring a ring a roses

So your comments are based on seeing dancers (probably beginners / improvers like myself) not producing a great performance worthy of somebody who has been dancing for many years.

Swing Dance (noun) is danced to Swing Music (noun) you are appearing to confuse this with the verb - e.g. "man that Cat sure can swing". I would contend that anyone who is dancing Lindy no matter how badly is dancing a swing dance.

The dance is based on eight and six beat moves you can dance it in single double triple or half time better still a mixture of them all.
Many people get distracted trying to fit in triples most fit them in at the expense of musicality.

I agree - and that's what teachers will tell their class, if people don't learn well, hey ho what do you do?

Many people get distracted trying to fit in triples most fit them in at the expense of musicality.

But now we're just back to a question of experience & technique - I've only been dancing Lindy for a short time but I wouldn't dream of starting to dance to a track with the intent of triple stepping all the way through, that would be dull. But I'd still be aware of the swung triples in the music - e.g. a slide can be a single continous movement or it can have a twitch (for want of a better word that I can't clutch at the moment) on the and

Look forward to seeing you Dance in time to Sing sing with Triples

Personally, I'd struggle at the moment but how about Kevin & Carla dancing to Bei Mir Bist Du Schon which hits 200 bpm (broadly in line with Sing Sing Sing), they appear to have no trouble & I wouldn't question their musicality for a moment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...circle&pl=true

(and yes I do note that they use more than just triples)

[pjay]

I'd agree with that. Sound silly enough to have me involved, though. Except, my Lindy is more than rusty and Balboa needs just as much work

That's ok, my Lindy is pretty rusty (it has been 4 months), and I think I've danced bal only once or twice, so really, wha do I know...

In saying that I had a lovely dance this evening which was a combination of Lindy & Modern Jive.... it was lovely.

[Mr Cool]

Personally, I'd struggle at the moment but how about Kevin & Carla dancing to Bei Mir Bist Du Schon which hits 200 bpm (broadly in line with Sing Sing Sing), they appear to have no trouble & I wouldn't question their musicality for a moment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...circle&pl=true

(and yes I do note that they use more than just triples)[/QUOTE]

Hi thanks I loved the Video clips such talented dancers.
Great musicality which i think is key to any dance, I just love flash foot work that fits the music.
I didnt see many rock step, triple step, step step triple steps, Ha