Competitions - separate section for teachers?

[Gadget]

...a totaly unimportant competition.

I'm sure that it was important to those competing and those organising.

[Gus]

I'm sure that it was important to those competing and those organising.

OK ... case in point. A Team Cabaret competition with 1 team. I accept that it was great to see the team perform, regardless of standard .... but to then claim to be 'Major Championship Winners' is an insult to all the true champions. Don't you agree?

[ChrisA]

OK ... case in point. A Team Cabaret competition with 1 team. I accept that it was great to see the team perform, regardless of standard .... but to then claim to be 'Major Championship Winners' is an insult to all the true champions. Don't you agree?

I recall the example - we had a little to-do about it here, on exactly this subject in fact, IIRC.

ISTR that it was asserted in no uncertain terms at the time that since the team in question was so fab (which, to be fair, I thought it was - and I haven't seen a better one since), other teams withdrew their entries since they didn't feel they had a chance.

And consequently deserved on that basis alone to merit the "winner" acolade.

I think they deserved some stick for it at the time, but I think it's a bit naff dragging it all up again...

[Gus]

I recall the example - we had a little to-do about it here, on exactly this subject in fact, IIRC.

I think they deserved some stick for it at the time, but I think it's a bit naff dragging it all up again...

Ahem, its a bit more naff to make thoise accusations about the wrong event. Are you are referring to Ceroc Metro entry at one of the Minors, i.e. WSM? I was talking about 2002 UK CHamps. If you've watched the video and still think that was the best routine you've ever seen then I'm seriously conerned about your dance expertise.

[ChrisA]

Ahem, its a bit more naff to make thoise accusations about the wrong event. Are you are referring to Ceroc Metro entry at one of the Minors, i.e. WSM? I was talking about 2002 UK CHamps. If you've watched the video and still think that was the best routine you've ever seen then I'm seriously conerned about your dance expertise.

Well, if you don't want to be misunderstood, you should be clearer...

I did think you meant the Ceroc Metro entry. 2002 was before my time.

So now you tell me you're dragging up a moan from almost four years ago?

Even naffer.

[David Franklin]

Well, if you don't want to be misunderstood, you should be clearer...

I did think you meant the Ceroc Metro entry.

Me too. Sorry, Gus, but given it's a lot more recent and was the case that was discussed here not so long ago it was the obvious referent.

I don't recall the 2002 winners making that much of a big deal about it. Plus if memory serves and we're talking about Sue Freeman's team, at that point I think she was widely regarded as the best team choreographer around, so I hardly think the claim was a huge injustice.

If we're looking that far back, I did think the competitor who came 3rd in DWAS and described himself as a UK Open Jive winner was more than a little naughty.

[Gus]

I don't recall the 2002 winners making that much of a big deal about it. Plus if memory serves and we're talking about Sue Freeman's team, at that point I think she was widely regarded as the best team choreographer around, so I hardly think the claim was a huge injustice..

COME ON Guys. At least look at the C2D website. The winning, and only team, was a North West team, most of the people I know myself. This 'victory' HAS been used quite strongly locally.

Please give me some credit for getting my facts right!! This seems to be the second time in two days when people have launched in assumptions without trying to validate the facts first .... would save no small amount of hassle!

[Andy McGregor]

Please give me some credit for getting my facts right!! This seems to be the second time in two days when people have launched in assumptions without trying to validate the facts first .... would save no small amount of hassle!

Sorry Gus, but I'm blaming you if you're so vague that people guess what you're talking about. So don't get uppity when they guess wrongly. My advice is to state clearly who you're talking about - you did it in the end, so you've obviously got no problem saying who it was. IMHO you should have done so in the first place.

And, on the subject of Sue Freeman's team at the Ceroc Champs, I thought that their performance was the best team cabaret I've ever seen

[David Franklin]

COME ON Guys. At least look at the C2D website. The winning, and only team, was a North West team, most of the people I know myself. This 'victory' HAS been used quite strongly locally.

Sorry, you're right. It wasn't Sue Freeman's team. It does go to show how these oblique references can bite you though - I'd say Chris and I are both better informed than most, and we still thought you meant someone else. I of course, am equally guilty of hinting in my post above.

[Gus]

Sorry Gus, but I'm blaming you if you're so vague that people guess what you're talking about.

Blame who you like pal. Doesn't change the fact that the comment was taken out of context. The reason the examples were mentioned in the first place were merely as examples of questionable marketing. To focus on background examples and to ignore the actual point is made is unfortunately indicative of the Forum over the last year+ ... hence my original decision to leave it behind

So don't get uppity when they guess wrongly.

So THEY get it wrong and I'm too blame ..... Cross dressing may be your forte but logic obviously isn't. Get Your Facts Right BEFORE you launch a tirade. Tis both good manners and common sense

ANYWAY .... back to thread .... has a cohesive and convincing argument been made either way yet?

[ChrisA]

...usual ranting...

Ok Gus, you win.

You were vague, but it was completely my fault for jumping to the wrong conclusion. And Dave's fault for making the same mistake. We should have known exactly what you meant, even though you only made an oblique reference to what you were talking about.

And I also apologise for wanting to try and understand the point you're making in the context of an actual example, even if the example is too non-specific for anyone to know what example you're referring to.

I realise in future I should just agree with you. After all, you shout so loud on these topics that you must be right.

Anyway, I've offered my view in response to Danielle's original question. I hope it's of interest. You can have this thread to yourself now.

[David Franklin]

ANYWAY .... back to thread .... has a cohesive and convincing argument been made either way yet?

You can read the thread yourself, but I think it's a fair summary to say the consensus is that there's no real justification for having a separate section. Opinion is a little more mixed on whether teachers should be restricted to advanced, open etc.

[Gus]

You can read the thread yourself, but I think it's a fair summary to say the consensus is that there's no real justification for having a separate section. Opinion is a little more mixed on whether teachers should be restricted to advanced, open etc.

Isn't the one thing that is always missing from this debate (which seems to occur on a regular basis) is the organisers, the ones who actualy can change things? When was the last time anyone from C2D, Ceroc, WSM, Britrock etc made a statement on the Forum, other than to publicise their event? Would be real nice to hear their opinion.
Actualy, didn't C2D once make a comment on the subject ... can't seem to find it.

[David Franklin]

Isn't the one thing that is always missing from this debate (which seems to occur on a regular basis) is the organisers, the ones who actualy can change things? When was the last time anyone from C2D, Ceroc, WSM, Britrock etc made a statement on the Forum, other than to publicise their event? Would be real nice to hear their opinion.
Actualy, didn't C2D once make a comment on the subject ... can't seem to find it.

C2D are actually quite good about replying on the forum to queries and suggestions. They certainly answered some prior to this years' comp. Unfortunately despite many posts on this forum advocating adding a new "Open" section, they seem unwilling to change things, which is a shame. Conversely, the Ceroc Champs organisers rarely seem to reply here, but it is clear from the changes they've made to the rules that they do read and respond to suggestions and comments here. It would be nice to have the best of both worlds, though!

I think anything C2D said about teachers competing was a few years back now. I do remember that originally the big contrast with the Ceroc champs was that teachers could enter C2D (only the advanced section, I think). But as I've said earlier, while there used to be a real gap between teachers and the rest that could justify forcing them into a particular division, such differences are much much smaller now.

[Gadget]

OK ... case in point. A Team Cabaret competition with 1 team. I accept that it was great to see the team perform, regardless of standard .... but to then claim to be 'Major Championship Winners' is an insult to all the true champions. Don't you agree?

Yes, and no {}
Technically it is accurate. And every teacher/organiser/organisation wants to promote themselves as not only having experiance, but being the best with that experiance.

This is my main objection with teachers in 'general' competitions - not the fact that they might win because they have a lot of resources and knowledge to pool - but that they have to teach. And to teach well, you have to have the respect of your pupils. And I think that entering into a competition so that you are rubbing shoulders with the people you teach can only loose you respect. If you are a brilliant dancer who should be placed, then you shouldn't be in this section anyway; loss of respect.

[Andy McGregor]

So THEY get it wrong and I'm to blame .....

Correct, you left people in a position where they had to guess what you were talking about if they were to add anything to the debate - and then got annoyed when they guessed wrongly. You clues were insufficient for two well informed individuals and those clues might even have been misleading as those, well informed, individuals seemed to think they knew who you were talking about.