Competitions - separate section for teachers?

[Lynn]

Ah but what would look better, failure at open or the chance of being placed in advanced, not that i feel i could be. If this was the case, i think my dancers especially would respect someone who won an advanced competition than someone who didnt get through any rounds in the open! (this is MHO)

Most of your local dancers wouldn't be at the competition for a start. I don't really think competitions are on their radar to be honest, not yet anyway. I'm the only one to my knowledge who has even been to one. They would be impressed enough if you entered, never mind where you got to and I don't think they would currently know the difference between advanced and open. They are more interested in how you behave on a regular night helping them to learn to dance than performance in competitions in England (or Scotland).

[David Franklin]

Judging at the last Scottish Ceroc Champs having been suggested to that my inclusion in the competition may be construde as innappropriate due to potential favouritism type stuff (which I duly respected), I always thought it'd be nice to have a competition category for teachers only.

No offense, but I completely disagree, at least as long as there is an open category they can enter. I can't see any reason (other than politics) to prevent non-teachers from competing against teachers.

What would a Ceroc teacher do if their direct competitor who is independant for example, came higher than them in the placings? I reckon it would be a great category for joe punter to watch as everyone would be going for it bigstyle....

So not entirely unlike the current open category? Unless you think the open competitors are just going through the motions or something?

For someone like yourself Danielle, the people you teach over in NI will percieve you as a dance guru due to your ability and understanding which they don't have...yet, and so why would you want to compete at a level which doesn't fit that stereotype?

Personally, I think there's a lot of value in students learning their teacher isn't an infallible guru. But I agree it's probably not the best marketing ploy.

[Andy McGregor]

I've changed my opinion of Teachers and competitions having given it a huge amount of thought I've realised that it's not really a separate category. I think that dance professionals, people who make their living from dance teaching or dancing, are a very different animal from teachers who teach modern jive the odd night a week and have a real day job.

I believe that the occasional teacher should not be put in a different category from the keen amateur. There might even be an argument that the keen amateur has more time to practice and gets more training than the occasional teacher. I think that people could make their own mind up about their level - and the audience should boo those pot hunters who enter beneath themselves.

Dance professionals should have their own category - but in MJ there are so few of them the entry would be so low it wouldn't be worth running the competition. So you'd end up with everyone being able to enter everything. And this is completely right for what is basically a social dance.

[ChrisA]

...having given it a huge amount of thought I've realised that it's not really a separate category.

....

I believe that the occasional teacher should not be put in a different category from the keen amateur.

...So you'd end up with everyone being able to enter everything. And this is completely right for what is basically a social dance.

Er, just to clarify, does this huge amount of thought you've put in mean that you agree with me, Andy?????

It seems so unlikely that I thought I'd check...

[Andy McGregor]

Er, just to clarify, does this huge amount of thought you've put in mean that you agree with me, Andy?????

It seems so unlikely that I thought I'd check...

I think that ChrisA will find that he's agreeing with me. The opposite is unthinkable

[ChrisA]

I think that ChrisA will find that he's agreeing with me. The opposite is unthinkable

That's good enough for me.

Particularly since it didn't require a huge amount of thought on my part...

[Andy McGregor]

Particularly since it didn't require a huge amount of thought on my part...

Of course it's easier to agree with me - don't even think about the alternatives Mr A - oh, you're not

[drathzel]

So since i started the thread, does that not mean you two are agreeing with me????

[Andy McGregor]

So since i started the thread, does that not mean you two are agreeing with me????

You might be agreeing with ChrisA. And ChrisA is agreeing with me. Although I'm not sure what you think - but any right thinking person would, of course, agree with me. The other option is to be completely wrong, and nobody would want to do that

[drathzel]

You might be agreeing with ChrisA. And ChrisA is agreeing with me. Although I'm not sure what you think - but any right thinking person would, of course, agree with me. The other option is to be completely wrong, and nobody would want to do that

ah but if you are agreeing with Chris A and he is certainly agreeing with me, then that means you are agreeing with the first post and in turn are agreeing with me! Glad we settled this matter

[Andy McGregor]

ah but if you are agreeing with Chris A and he is certainly agreeing with me, then that means you are agreeing with the first post and in turn are agreeing with me! Glad we settled this matter

That would be true if I were agreeing with ChrisA. But I'm not, he's agreeing with me - obviously.

[drathzel]

That would be true if I were agreeing with ChrisA. But I'm not, he's agreeing with me - obviously.

ah ok!

[Tessalicious]

Now that everyone agrees, can I throw a spanner in the works and disagree completely?

My view on the matter is this - that the idea of a competition is for those people who come along and learn to dance to measure their performance against others in the same position. How disgruntled would every single couple entered in the Intermediate level be if the winners or any placed couple were teachers, however newly-qualified? The reason for that disgruntlement is that it wouldn't feel like a fair competition - after all, those teachers have been taught not only how to dance at an intermediate level, but also how to teach at it, so they therefore must be better.

On the other hand, I don't agree that teachers shouldn't be allowed to compete at the Advanced level. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference between Advanced an Open is the allowability of lifts etc, which a teacher does not have any default advantage at because they are not taught at the standard teacher training. Therefore, although a teacher ought to be at a level of dancing to enter the Advanced, they should not be required to train to a level to be competing in the Open, just because they are teachers.

[David Franklin]

Now that everyone agrees, can I throw a spanner in the works and disagree completely?

No.

My view on the matter is this - that the idea of a competition is for those people who come along and learn to dance to measure their performance against others in the same position.

But even teachers have to learn to dance.

those teachers have been taught not only how to dance at an intermediate level, but also how to teach at it, so they therefore must be better.

But outside of Ceroc, I would guess most MJ teachers have between little and no specific training in how to teach dance.

I would also say that I don't see any particular justification for saying "taught to teach X => better at X", at least where X involves physical performance.

There is certainly an argument that Ceroc teachers get better dance teaching than is available to the general punter, however. But with all the workshops these days, I think that difference is far less marked than it was in the past.

As far as your main argument about people feeling "those teachers shouldn't have entered the intermediate category", I think that's more a problem with the category than anything else. With very few exceptions[*], when you look at the people who place in intermediate, it's hard to argue they don't "belong" in advanced. It's up to people to self-police their level, and I think it's the same for teachers - in fact, I'd argue that because their status is generally well-known, they are less likely to "sandbag" than a random couple.

[*] The most obvious exception is where a couple have only been dancing for a relatively short period. I think people who've only been dancing a year or so have a perfect right to enter intermediate, even if they'd have a realistic shot in the open.

On the other hand, I don't agree that teachers shouldn't be allowed to compete at the Advanced level. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference between Advanced an Open is the allowability of lifts etc, which a teacher does not have any default advantage at because they are not taught at the standard teacher training.

Actually, my understanding is most Ceroc teachers are taught various "red" moves that are deemed too difficult/risky to teach in classes, and these do include some basic lifts and some of the more adventurous drops.

[Andy McGregor]

Now that everyone agrees, can I throw a spanner in the works and disagree completely?

My view on the matter is this - that the idea of a competition is for those people who come along and learn to dance to measure their performance against others in the same position. How disgruntled would every single couple entered in the Intermediate level be if the winners or any placed couple were teachers, however newly-qualified? The reason for that disgruntlement is that it wouldn't feel like a fair competition - after all, those teachers have been taught not only how to dance at an intermediate level, but also how to teach at it, so they therefore must be better.

On the other hand, I don't agree that teachers shouldn't be allowed to compete at the Advanced level. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference between Advanced an Open is the allowability of lifts etc, which a teacher does not have any default advantage at because they are not taught at the standard teacher training. Therefore, although a teacher ought to be at a level of dancing to enter the Advanced, they should not be required to train to a level to be competing in the Open, just because they are teachers.

I think we agree, sort of. I think that the intermediate competition is mis-named. It should be the novice or newcomers competition. Some people teach after six months of dancing and should be in this category. However, any teacher who is a fab dancer would get a huge amount of stick for entering beneath themselves so I think they'd stay out of the bottom level of competition. As I said, let people decide on their own level. I think it's more likely that people will have a higher opinion of their dancing than a lesser one.

And, as an aside, I've always thought that the Intermediate comeptition is difficult to define. After all, you're really competing to prove that you're in the wrong category

[Gus]

Ah but what would look better, failure at open or the chance of being placed in advanced

And this is where it all goes wrong and I start to be ashamed of my fellow instructors. There are those who claim competition successes for the Minors as if they were competing in the Majors, those who win a competition with no or little competition and then claim this as a major victory (don't laugh ... all the above are true and currently advertised on the web).

If you want to make yourself look good ... then WIN AGAINST THE BIG BOYS AT A MAJOR ... don't mislead the Public (and yourself) by claiming to have 'won' something. If you want to compete at Advanced rather than Open, great .... but don’t then shout about it.

[Rant Mode Off]

[drathzel]

If you want to make yourself look good ... then WIN AGAINST THE BIG BOYS AT A MAJOR ... don't mislead the Public (and yourself) by claiming to have 'won' something. If you want to compete at Advanced rather than Open, great .... but don’t then shout about it.

[Rant Mode Off]

You can rant if you want but my comment was in response to Jive Brummie about what would look better, personally i dont care how i look, i have always competed for fun! For me its more important to be a good teacher than to be "one of the big boys"

[Gus]

You can rant if you want but my comment was in response to Jive Brummie about what would look better, personally i dont care how i look, i have always competed for fun! For me its more important to be a good teacher than to be "one of the big boys"

Sorry lass, wasn't a rant at YOU, just a rant at the no-marks who keep on pushing out marketing blurb claiming 'Mastery of Modern Jive' through winning a totaly unimportant competition.

Slightly off thread but if you entered a team event, and you were the only entrant, would you them claim, "A major competition winner and team champions choreographer"?

[MartinHarper]

Slightly off thread but if you entered a team event, and you were the only entrant, would you them claim, "A major competition winner and team champions choreographer"?

Definately. Since taking third position in a "bad dancing" round in a pub quiz I did on holiday, I feel entitled to call myself an "international dance competitor".

[Gus]

Definately. Since taking third position in a "bad dancing" round in a pub quiz I did on holiday, I feel entitled to call myself an "international dance competitor".

But now that you have been 'placed' in a dance related event don't you now have to enter the Advanced section at the Ceroc Champs .... on ethics alone?