View Poll Results: Is there any point to the 'essentials'?

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  • Yes

    18 56.25%
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Thread: Ceroc Essentials...

  1. #41
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    I don't have time for a lengthy reply, but this was cut from Feedback on recent changes way back on 12th Feb 04
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    In principle, I think that the warm ups are a good idea. In execution, I think that they are poorly thought out and planned. Nothing derogitary about the execution, just the contents and over-all presentation:
    - Simple side steps are a good way to introduce 'finding the rhythm', but should be presented in a way that is actually used when dancing (eg arm-jive footwork)
    - Same with forward/back steps; they should be the same as used in walks.
    - The emphisis should be made about small, 'natural' steps, and this could be prompted again during the beginner lesson.
    - Introduction to spins and turns should be included; the way I would do it would be to turn 180, then when partnered, have the man step in while the lady turns (back to you), and step back when they turn back to face. Again, I would remind people when doing a return during the lesson.
    - I would also build these moves into a micro-routine of side/side for 2, fore/back for 2, turn, turn.
    - The only thing I think the warm up lacks is the vital element of Lead/Follow: perhaps the men should go through a few beats leading the lady side/side, fore/back and mix them up so the lady has to follow.
    I still think they are a good thing and that they have improved.

  2. #42
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    .If that argument is going to be used, it logically follows that late-comers should be warned that they risk injuring themselves if they do not warm-up.
    It doesn't matter how much class time it wastes... I think peoples saftey is more important. Besides, it only takes a few minutes to warm up properly. I'm sure it worth using up about 10 minutes or so in a class than to see somebody who didn't warm up properly get injured.

    I know you're standing there most of the time when being taught a lesson, but at least you've loosened off and are still on the go, so it's better than going into it without warming up plus it still reduces the chance of injury.

  3. #43
    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    No it isnt - Salsa is not Modern Jive
    i was refering to andy mcgregors comment on the competition, i was assuming he meant general competition as opposed to just jive competition! But he can clear that one up!

    Edit:- Also my only competition is salsa and the like as there is no jive that i am aware of! So this point is very valid to me!!!!

  4. #44
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Speaking personally, I can't think of anything that impacted on my daily life like smoking did. It created no-go areas and required constant vigilance just to avoid an clear and present health risk. Nothing else is quite the same in terms of invasiveness.
    Unlicensed dancing is, allegedly. At least according lady that accosted me while busking last weekend. She told me that dancing in the street was bad for the community, bad for local people, and worse in fact than passive smoking.

    So there you have it. Killer Ceroc.

    (I should just add that it wasn't me that she was watching at the time - before all the wags get in there.)

  5. #45
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Unlicensed dancing is, allegedly. At least according lady that accosted me while busking last weekend. She told me that dancing in the street was bad for the community, bad for local people, and worse in fact than passive smoking.

    So there you have it. Killer Ceroc.

    (I should just add that it wasn't me that she was watching at the time - before all the wags get in there.)


  6. #46
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    IMO there is no point to The Essentials. Thankfully, I don't have to suffer them often, but when I do I just sort of glaze over or nod off and carry on on auto-pilot! As has been said, they don't really work well as a warm up, and everything could (and usually is) taught in the class anyway, so it's just wasting time.

  7. #47
    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Unlicensed dancing is, allegedly. At least according lady that accosted me while busking last weekend. She told me that dancing in the street was bad for the community, bad for local people, and worse in fact than passive smoking.

    So there you have it. Killer Ceroc.

    (I should just add that it wasn't me that she was watching at the time - before all the wags get in there.)
    Ah, if that had of been here i would have had great pleasure in saying we had as much right to be there as she did as in N.I we can dance/busk in the street completely legally as long as we let the local police know first! Did she let the police know her whereabouts before leaving the house???

  8. #48
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    i was refering to andy mcgregors comment on the competition, i was assuming he meant general competition as opposed to just jive competition! But he can clear that one up!

    Edit:- Also my only competition is salsa and the like as there is no jive that i am aware of! So this point is very valid to me!!!!
    I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.

  9. #49
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.
    Dont give them any bl00dy ideas

  10. #50
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    Dont give them any bl00dy ideas
    If anybody did open up another MJ event in Belfast then I am Lynn will be a bit ticked off. No MJ in Northen Ireland for years and years and then two come along at once.

  11. #51
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.
    To do a business evaluation one simply needs to compare beginner retention before/after essentials were introduced, and to stagger their introduction in different venues, and to compare average times of arrival before and after.

  12. #52
    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    If anybody did open up another MJ event in Belfast then I am Lynn will be a bit ticked off. No MJ in Northen Ireland for years and years and then two come along at once.
    Yeah but i know where her loyalities lie!! (no pressure at all )

  13. #53
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    No MJ in Northen Ireland for years and years and then two come along at once.
    What, like buses...

    I would be a bit miffed actually as it would be to the detriment of both Ceroc and the independant!

  14. #54
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    What, like buses...

    I would be a bit miffed actually as it would be to the detriment of both Ceroc and the independant!

  15. #55
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I really meant MJ competition. To conduct a proper experiment I think we need someone to open up in Belfast with a MJ class that does not do the "essentials" but does everything else the same.
    What you mean something like "Nice Roc"??

    SpinDr.

  16. #56
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    What you mean something like "Nice Roc"??

    SpinDr.
    You flogging that one again???

  17. #57
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    It's supposed to be an ice-breaker I guess. Nothing is particularly taught that couldn't be taught in the normal class. Different people teach different things, the people I see most often: one does it as something quite like a line-dancing class with a bit of practise doing "in and outs" then; one does a bit of a step back, with then some spinning practise, but without explaining exactly how to spin; another does some weight transferance.

    I guess that maybe it's supposed to help put people at ease, which it might do in some cases. It wouldn't have done anything like that for me. I also think that it's a bit of a waste of time. The time it takes, you'd get the class done earlier, and probably have a couple of tracks extra in freestyle.

    To be honest, I think that as many people are put off/don't enjoy it, as who do and find it helps. Certainly, most intermediates seem to aim to miss doing them. I don't particularly see any point to them myself.

    From talking to teachers, I'd say that it's probably split somewhere down the middle on what the teachers think about it as well. And some (myself included) definitely feel uncomfortable doing them.
    I don't really know what the fuss is all about. In any other dance form you would have to spend hours/ months/ years practising exercises to acquire the techniques to enable you to perform well and look good on the dance floor, I don't see why MJ should be any different. It seems to me that 5 minutes of basic skills/ technique practice is a pretty pathetic prerequisite for turning a shambling, unfit, uncoordinated slice of Joe Public into the kind of smooth, elegant, sophisticated type of dancer that we are all hoping to get to dance with. In fact, if I had my way we'd all have a good hour of gruelling training before the main business of the evening got started! That'd see off the yankers who are only there to pull.

    Having got that off my chest, unaccountably I seem only be able to recollect being in attendance for one essentials session. That was Alex Faulkner, who did some footwork before the beginners lesson and then incorporated it into the routines. It worked really well - anybody who has watched beginners / low intermediates struggle to coordinate shifting their weight from foot to foot in any kind of smooth and balanced way could hardly doubt that it was time well spent.

    I think basic skills should be practised solo before incorporating them in to the partner section of the class. Many beginners find working with a partner when they are not used to it quite stressful, so there is a benefit to be had in working through the material without that stress. I love dancing solo anyway and think it's useful for developing skills that can be applied to partner dance.

    People who come to Ceroc with a good grounding in any physical activity that requires fitness, coordination and balance might find the Ceroc essentials a bit basic - but that is not the case for the majority of Ceroc punters.

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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Spurred on by this thread I got to the local class early. Very few there for 7.45 - the teacher postponed the class start. at 7.48 there was a queue at the desk - just in time to miss the "essentials"? The "essentials" started with 1/3 of those present, 1/3 chatting, 1/3 in various stages of arrival. The class proper started with a third line being formed, and with all of those present bar 5.

    Nothing can be deduced from one observation - but if the "essentials" are delaying peoples arrival and the class start, then I would consider them "harmful."

  19. #59
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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    I don't really know what the fuss is all about. In any other dance form you would have to spend hours/ months/ years practising exercises to acquire the techniques to enable you to perform well and look good on the dance floor, I don't see why MJ should be any different. It seems to me that 5 minutes of basic skills/ technique practice is a pretty pathetic prerequisite for turning a shambling, unfit, uncoordinated slice of Joe Public into the kind of smooth, elegant, sophisticated type of dancer that we are all hoping to get to dance with. In fact, if I had my way we'd all have a good hour of gruelling training before the main business of the evening got started! That'd see off the yankers who are only there to pull.

    Having got that off my chest, unaccountably I seem only be able to recollect being in attendance for one essentials session. That was Alex Faulkner, who did some footwork before the beginners lesson and then incorporated it into the routines. It worked really well - anybody who has watched beginners / low intermediates struggle to coordinate shifting their weight from foot to foot in any kind of smooth and balanced way could hardly doubt that it was time well spent.

    I think basic skills should be practised solo before incorporating them in to the partner section of the class. Many beginners find working with a partner when they are not used to it quite stressful, so there is a benefit to be had in working through the material without that stress. I love dancing solo anyway and think it's useful for developing skills that can be applied to partner dance.

    People who come to Ceroc with a good grounding in any physical activity that requires fitness, coordination and balance might find the Ceroc essentials a bit basic - but that is not the case for the majority of Ceroc punters.
    At last. Someone has posted something that could almost be seen as a 'point' to the essentials. I was also wondering what the other 12 people who've voted that there is one could say for them. Sorry I've just repped you for something else, or I'd do it again.

    I notice that you love dancing solo. Do you think that this is possibly a reason why you don't mind doing the essentials, and why you think there's a benefit?

    As someone who never had, and still doesn't ever do any serious solo dancing (you'd never get me on a dancefloor at a nightclub, unless I could do modern jive there!), I don't necessarily agree with you. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree on this point.

    And likewise, I still don't see that any exercises that talk about weight change / distribution / balance etc. can't just be taught as part of the class (quite possibly separate from your partner), without making them something different at the beginning, under a separate heading as it were.

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    Re: Ceroc Essentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    I notice that you love dancing solo. Do you think that this is possibly a reason why you don't mind doing the essentials, and why you think there's a benefit?
    I suppose I'm used to dancing solo, so it doesn't make me feel like a prat. In fact I'm more likely to feel like a prat if I have to do something I find difficult when I'm dancing with a partner, because I don't like looking like an idiot with some bloke watching me! I also think that the skills I practise dancing solo have a lot of bearing on the way I do partner dancing.

    As someone who never had, and still doesn't ever do any serious solo dancing (you'd never get me on a dancefloor at a nightclub, unless I could do modern jive there!), I don't necessarily agree with you. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree on this point.
    OK.
    And likewise, I still don't see that any exercises that talk about weight change / distribution / balance etc. can't just be taught as part of the class (quite possibly separate from your partner), without making them something different at the beginning, under a separate heading as it were.
    Well, as I said before, most other dances, possibly most other forms of sport, teach essential skills in isolation so that the precise technique can be really focussed upon without other distractions. Dancing well is not easy, after all. A ballet dancer would do an hour's daily class at the barre repeating basic movements which would be quite separate from learning choreography and rehearsal time.
    But really, I don't care where and how novice dancers get their skills training, as long as they get it.

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