Should teachers demo the routine before a class?

[Rachel]

Sorry Lily. Don't agree with you. In all the classes I've taught, I've only changed the routine a couple of times. I've sometimes dropped off linking the last move back the the first move in intermediate classes. And occasionally have left off the last move, if the routine has taken significantly longer to teach than I anticipated.

A simple line like, "Okie, going to leave off the last move as we're running out of time. I'll teach it first next week", has always eliminated any problems for me.

You'll have guessed from this that I'm for demo's. I'd always want to know what I was about to learn if I was in a class.

I actually agree with The Tramp, and don't like the Ceroc practice of not demo'ing the beginners' routine (although we do show the intermediate).

I think it's absolutely essential to know what you're aiming for and what 'the whole' is supposed to look like. Particularly for first-timers who may have no or very little concept of modern jive dancing.

You'd find it very odd if you went on, e.g., a software course and didn't know what your objectives were, wouldn't you? I strongly believe in learners knowing why they are being told to do what they're doing and how it will help them to achieve the 'objective' at every step of the way. If they're doing this 'blind' with no idea of the outcome, what incentive is there?

And isn't there a greater sense of achievement when they have completed the class and realised that they have actually managed to do (to an extent) what was shown in the demo?

Marc sometimes changes his intermediate routines, if they would otherwise run-over into freestyle time. But again, as Tramp says, it's never been a problem to say: 'rather than running over, we'll shorten the routine and teach the last move another time'. Or sometimes he'll give the class the option of the more difficult or easier ending. Occasionally he'll make a subtle change, but doesn't say anything (we work on the assumption that no-one remembers the exact demo in its entirety, anyway. This could be a false assumption, however …!).

Rachel x

[robd]

Occasionally he'll make a subtle change, but doesn't say anything (we work on the assumption that no-one remembers the exact demo in its entirety, anyway. This could be a false assumption, however …!).

Rachel x

It's when he changes it without letting his demo know that things get amusing

[Rachel]

...The main reason I think a class should be demoed though, is because it gives you the option to not join in if there is something that could be detrimental to your health, or you strongly object to learning for any personal reason. For example, if there is a drop, and you have an injury, it gives you the option to bow out immediately, I have been in classes where I have told my partner I don't want to do the move, but he has still led me into it, forcefully, against my request. Also, as a female, I may want to go into a class as a lead, but then find there are particular moves (overtly up close & sexy, or more advanced drops) that I won't feel comfortable doing as a lead. ...

agree with this too!

I find it awkward and embarrassing to drop out of a class part-way through if something comes up that I'm unwilling or unable to do. At the very least, I feel like I have to wait until I've rotated all the way round until I'm off the floor again, which could be several drops or monkey walks or choreographed rubbish later.
R.

[Rachel]

It's when he changes it without letting his demo know that things get amusing

Hmm, amusing for whom??

[robd]

Hmm, amusing for whom??

Those of us watching

Wrong thread but my one disappointment on Sat night - not getting a dance with you Rachel

[TheTramp]

For those that voted that routines shouldn't be demostrated.....

Given that (and I know that this isn't a totally representative forum, or even a decent sample size) over 83% of people (who've voted) so far think that the beginner routines should be demonstrated, 87.5% of people think that intermediate routines should be demonstrated, and over 90% of people think that routines at weekenders should be demonstrated, would you consider changing your mind at all?

Just wondered....

[Stuart M]

One aspect which may not have been mentioned (apols in advance, don't have time to read threads in detail at the moment). In reference to Intermediate classes, is the demo partner up to it? Should the teacher pressurise their onstage demo partner into a flawless execution of an intermediate routine, 5 minutes after learning it? And before someone says "in that case, the demo shouldn't be up on stage", not every venue/teacher has that quality of dancer available to them.

I know that when I used to be a demo partner, the initial demonstration of "tonight's intermediate moves" was the most nerve-racking part. Well, the second-most nerve-racking part actually, but not every venue has a CJ...

[ShinyWeeStar]

Personally, I prefer to see the routine before a class because even though the moves might look scary at first, it gives you a goal to work towards and takes away the uncertainty about what might be coming next (and I don't like not knowing what's coming next).

I think it's absolutely essential to know what you're aiming for and what 'the whole' is supposed to look like. Particularly for first-timers who may have no or very little concept of modern jive dancing.

A few weeks ago some first timers walked out a short way into the beginners' lesson and, if I remember correctly, that particular week there was no demo at the start. It could've been that Ceroc just wasn't what they were expecting and a demo would've made no difference, but as Rachel says, maybe if they'd been able to see the routine as a dance rather than in bits as individual moves they'd have seen what they were working towards and had more incentive to stay.

And isn't there a greater sense of achievement when they have completed the class and realised that they have actually managed to do (to an extent) what was shown in the demo?

For my first few weeks I remember seeing the demo and thinking "There's no way I'll manage that.", but by the end of the class being pleasantly surprised that I had. It's also encouraging as the weeks go by to begin to recognise moves in the demo and know that at least some of the lesson will be covering familiar ground. I don't think the demos are any more likely to scare off beginners than seeing dancers doing freestyle, which is a pretty experience at first.

[Lory]

The main reason I think a class should be demoed though, is because it gives you the option to not join in if there is something that could be detrimental to your health, or you strongly object to learning for any personal reason. For example, if there is a drop,

I simply hate doing drops in a class situation and find it extremely embarressing to walk off midway through a class, although I have done but i'd rather not join in in the first place.

Re weekenders.. I spend a lot of time tossing up between the benifits of learning verses sleeping and i've just had a brilliant idea!!!! ...................
I'd love to have a chance to see demo's of all the weekender classes, in one fell swoop, sometime early on the Friday night, then i'd know instantly what i'd wanted to do!

[LilyB]

For those that voted that routines shouldn't be demostrated.....

Given that (and I know that this isn't a totally representative forum, or even a decent sample size) over 83% of people (who've voted) so far think that the beginner routines should be demonstrated, 87.5% of people think that intermediate routines should be demonstrated, and over 90% of people think that routines at weekenders should be demonstrated, would you consider changing your mind at all?

Just wondered....

Nope. Anyone who wants detailed reasons can PM me.

[Donna]

Nope. Anyone who wants detailed reasons can PM me.

Cool avatar!

[David Bailey]

Despite the comments from Viktor and Lily, I'm still on the side of the "demo it" crowd.

As a punter, I want to see what I'm getting into.

As far as teaching goes - yes, I know a lot of teachers change tack half-way through, but in all honesty, I don't think that's a good reason to deprive the learners of a chance to see what it's supposed to look like. It almost sounds like the teacher is then making the student work harder, because the teacher wants more flexibility in the class.

Yes, sometimes routines take longer to learn / teach than anticipated - in that case, as said, change the last move to something simple, or just leave it out.

To me, a demonstration is like an introduction - it's not absolutely necessary, but it's very useful.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Despite the comments from Viktor and Lily, I'm still on the side of the "demo it".

As a punter, I want to see what I'm getting into.

As far as teaching goes - yes, I know a lot of teachers change tack half-way through, but in all honesty, I don't think that's a good reason to deprive the learners of a chance to see what it's supposed to look like. It almost sounds like the teacher is then making the student work harder, because the teacher wants more flexibility in the class.

Yes, sometimes routines take longer to learn / teach than anticipated - in that case, as said, change the last move to something simple, or just leave it out.

To me, a demonstration is like an introduction - it's not absolutely necessary, but it's very useful.

I suppose it would be rude of me to add that for the most part, if a class doesn't 'get' the moves in time to be taught the whole routine, they're probably not sharp enough to realise that a chunk of it has been missed out?

[Jive Brummie]

My two-penneth...

Weekenders - demo routines
Weekly classes - no demo for beginners as it scares them and too many teachers dance it in their style...which scares newbies even more
Weekly classes - demo intermediate and show them how the routine could look.

j x x

[David Bailey]

I suppose it would be rude of me to add that for the most part, if a class doesn't 'get' the moves in time to be taught the whole routine, they're probably not sharp enough to realise that a chunk of it has been missed out?

You've spent too much time at Finchley...

Oops, bugger, is that the time

[El Salsero Gringo]

You've spent too much time at Finchley...

Oops, bugger, is that the time

In fairness, I think the crowd at Finchley are too sharp, and certainly sharp enough to know that they don't really come to Ceroc to learn dancing.

[Gadget]

... i've just had a brilliant idea!!!! ...................
I'd love to have a chance to see demo's of all the weekender classes, in one fell swoop, sometime early on the Friday night, then i'd know instantly what i'd wanted to do!

With things like that google video, why not have them on-line, then you know in advance what to expect. (Perhaps a bad idea? people ripping off moves and content?)

[TheTramp]

Nope. Anyone who wants detailed reasons can PM me.

Consider this a PM asking for detailed reasons .

Next question. Would YOU do a class, where you didn't know what you were getting before you started. Cos, knowing you, I can't believe that you would...

[Dazzle]

Am I being simplistic here? If B & Q put a pile of flat-packed units in their window, would they sell better than the assembled kitchen?

If Beginners see what the end result should look like they have a target to aim for. Going straight into individual moves seems very disjointed to me and they feel even more confused as they have no idea where the class is going?

I prefer to see intermediate/advanced/weekender routines demo'd as I can see where I need to pay more attention to the parts I don't already know over the ones I do. Can pick up a whole routine better that way by eliminating what I already can do/know.

Then just my opinion. Not been teaching the length of time of such distinguished members as LilyB and Dancing Teeth , but confident enought to disagree at this point. However, nerve jangling that feels! LOL!

[Andybroom]

Consider this a PM asking for detailed reasons .

Next question. Would YOU do a class, where you didn't know what you were getting before you started. Cos, knowing you, I can't believe that you would...

I second that. Well not the "knowing you" bit because I only know you by reputation and I don't think you know me, but as a long time student of dance (and, with another hat on, someone who has some training in -er- training) I would say that NOT demonstrating the complete routine before the start is a very bad idea.

So I would be very interested to know why you appear to be flying in the face of one of the basic principles of training (demonstrate, teach, demonstrate again, examine). And, as a dancer, I would certainly feel lost if I hadn't seen the overall shape of what is being taught before you launched into detail.

Andy