Should teachers demo the routine before a class?

[DavidY]

When I started MJ a few years ago, in the Ceroc venues I went to, my memory is that the teachers would always demonstrate the routine before the start of the class.

Nowadays I notice that some teachers don't demonstrate the routine at the start any more. I remember hearing the logic that absolute beginners could be put off by seeing the routine at the start, but I notice that some teachers don't "demo" the intermediate routines either.

I find it particularly frustrating on weekenders when there's a workshop and I really want to see what coming at the start so I can decide if I want to stay or do another class (or have lunch, or sleep etc.). Obviously it isn't quite the same when the class isn't about moves (eg. a "lead and follow" class), but it's still good to know what to expect at the start (and sometimes it's not obvious from the title).

So should teachers demo the moves at the start?

[Piglet]

I like to see the moves at the beginning of the class and our teachers here in Aberdeen always always ALWAYS demo before they teach the moves.

It helped me to decide whether I wanted to try leading in a beginner's class cos that was really scary at first. And I know of one lady who likes to know how many spins will be in the lesson because she doesn't like to be spun too much especially by guys who haven't got the technique quite right to help the lady.

For me the bonus - especially of watching the Intermediate routine (although I'd say the same was true with the beginners' routine way back a good 18 months + back) is that I sometimes think - bloomin' heck that routine goes on forever and she's never going to get us doing that. And I'm always delighted at the end that I've achieved it.

So for me - keep the demo at the beginning!
And thanks to Lorna and Lisa who both do that - I definitely appreciate it.

[onkar]

When I started MJ a few years ago, in the Ceroc venues I went to, my memory is that the teachers would always demonstrate the routine before the start of the class.

Nowadays I notice that some teachers don't demonstrate the routine at the start any more. I remember hearing the logic that absolute beginners could be put off by seeing the routine at the start, but I notice that some teachers don't "demo" the intermediate routines either.

I find it particularly frustrating on weekenders when there's a workshop and I really want to see what coming at the start so I can decide if I want to stay or do another class (or have lunch, or sleep etc.). Obviously it isn't quite the same when the class isn't about moves (eg. a "lead and follow" class), but it's still good to know what to expect at the start (and sometimes it's not obvious from the title).

So should teachers demo the moves at the start?

I think both beginner and intermediate classes should include a full demo of what is to be taught. Gives the members an idea of what is to come.

Have also noticed that many venues now no longer demo the routine as they use to say a year or two ago.

Helps me decide if I want to do the class, or if it is a routine where i either know the moves well or a routine that is too lindy for my tastes, then I can sit out and chat at the bar!

Onkar

[LMC]

Most of the venues I go to don't demo any more.

I can see the point of not demo-ing beginners' classes - as DavidY said, first-timers might be put off. But as I am not always happy with dips/seducers in intermediate classes, I want a demo of any intermediate class. I don't really do moves classes at weekenders, I tend to go for style/technique, where (again, as David said) the moves are less important.

[Andreas]

I think I always did that because it makes it easier for people to comprehend what they got themselves into

The drawback obviously is that you may have some smart people who think they need to teach the steps ahead of the teacher. But those can be dealt with.

[ducasi]

At one of my regular venues the teacher always does a demo of both the beginner and the intermediate class at the start – quite often repeating the intermediate routine either to help show us how it all connects up, or just to scare us.

At my other regular venue the teacher never does a demo beforehand. Then we get surprises "dropped" on us which I have noticed will cause some ladies to drop out mid-class...

I personally like the demo – even when I was a beginner when it did scare me a bit, by the end of the class it was more like "that was easy – but it looked so complicated!" Without the demo you might not realise just how much you've learnt.

Obviously at special classes, workshops and weekenders, etc., a demo may not be directly applicable, but even a demonstration of the skills being taught might be useful...

So yes, I vote for demos where applicable.

[Whitebeard]

I can see the point of not demo-ing beginners' classes - as DavidY said, first-timers might be put off.

I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.

[Ghost]

I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.

I find it much easier to lead a beginner if they believe they can do the move.
If they say "I can't do that" after seeing the demo, I rely on the LMC method of verbal encouragement.

But I agree with the consensus of demos of intermediate classs please, especially if they have drops etc.

Take care,
Christopher

[LMC]

I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.

"Put off" does not necessarily mean "scared off" or equate to the beginner leaving the floor. Have you never seen the look on some first timers' faces, or heard them say "I can't do that" when the teacher demonstrates a catapult - on its own? This means that they are tense, even before they start the move - which means they are less likely to take things in.

Although I can see the point of not demo-ing the beginners' class, I don't agree with the lack of demonstration. However, it doesn't give me the same sense of mild frustration as a lack of demo in intermediate classes.

[Russell Saxby]

I've never seen hordes of newbies grabbing their coats and heading for the doors upon seeing the beginner demo ! !

I give that argument no credence whatsoever, and the poll currently agrees with me.

If memory serves me correct the decision to drop the demo of the beginners routine was a direct result of Ceroc contacting directly, by phone, a cross section of new members, (in particular ,those that stopped coming) and asking for them for their feedback on a variety of aspects of the "Ceroc Experience".
(but then again I am getting old and my memory doesn't aways serve me correctly)

[Lynn]

If memory serves me correct the decision to drop the demo of the beginners routine was a direct result of Ceroc contacting directly, by phone, a cross section of new members, (in particular ,those that stopped coming) and asking for them for their feedback on a variety of aspects of the "Ceroc Experience".
(but then again I am getting old and my memory doesn't aways serve me correctly)

Yes, it can be hard for us to think back to what impression we had as a beginner.

But doesn't it work in the opposite way then for busks? Show people what they can achieve? I know I wanted to learn ceroc because I saw other people dancing it.

But really it comes back to different learning styles. Some people like to learn in a sequence, a following b - others like to get the big picture at the start and see where all the bits fit together. As the class is taught in the 'move a then move b' pattern, that already caters for those with that learning style. Removing the demo at the start means there is nothing catering for the 'big picture' preferred learning style.

That means those with that learning style don't get to see how it all fits together till the end of the class and they will probably as a result be trying to work this out as they go along, therefore not giving each move quite as much focus as they could do if they had seen a demo at the start.

In any teaching situation its preferable to cater for both types of learners by providing a 'this is what we are going to cover in this class' at the start.

[ducasi]

If memory serves me correct the decision to drop the demo of the beginners routine was a direct result of Ceroc contacting directly, by phone, a cross section of new members, (in particular ,those that stopped coming) and asking for them for their feedback on a variety of aspects of the "Ceroc Experience".
(but then again I am getting old and my memory doesn't aways serve me correctly)

While it is a good thing that Ceroc asks those that stop coming what put them off, they should also ask those that continue to attend what kept them coming.

It seems from this unrepresentative poll of dancers who didn't give up, that the demo is a good thing. It would be foolish to change something for the benefit of those who no longer attend – many of whom would have still given it up even after the changes.

[LilyB]

I am afraid I am on the 'Don't demo' side. As a demo for some time for a very experienced Ceroc teacher (and as a teacher myself), it was a common occurence for the teacher half-way through the class to change the intended routine to something simpler, or to cut it short, because the class took far longer to learn the moves than we had anticipated. If we had kept to the original routine planned, we would have over-run the class quite substantially.

If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out. I know this for a fact, as I have experienced this reaction from people when I have either demo'd or taught as teacher. In fact, many people then come up to the teacher after the class and practically demand that the teacher show them the rest of the routine that was demo'd at the start of the class but which the teacher did not finish teaching. At the other extreme, there will also be those who are put off doing a class because the moves demo'd looked too difficult or involved a drop. Without the benefit of the teacher explaining in detail (during the class) how those moves can be done properly and safely or offering an alternative, it would be a little premature for people to drop out of doing the class entirely based on seeing the demo at the start of the lesson.

In any event, if a move is shown during the class which people did not feel happy doing, they are free to drop out at anytime. At least they would up till then have had the benefit of learning what had been taught in the class prior to the move they did not want to do.

Just my personal view from several years' experience as a teacher and demo.

LilyB

[Lynn]

I am afraid I am on the 'Don't demo' side. As a demo for some time for a very experienced Ceroc teacher (and as a teacher myself), it was a common occurence for the teacher half-way through the class to change the intended routine to something simpler, or to cut it short, because the class took far longer to learn the moves than we had anticipated. If we had kept to the original routine planned, we would have over-run the class quite substantially.

If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out. I know this for a fact, as I have experienced this reaction from people when I have either demo'd or taught as teacher. In fact, many people then come up to the teacher after the class and practically demand that the teacher show them the rest of the routine that was demo'd at the start of the class but which the teacher did not finish teaching.

Good to hear from someone's experience POV!

Fair enough if you have found that people complain if the routine is not taught exactly as demoed. I suppose I'm thinking from 'learning and teaching' perspective which might not apply to dance teaching. I know I frequently have to adjust what I am teaching as I go along and I simply explain to the class that we are spending more time on a particular area because that seems to be what is most benefit to the class and that we are adjusting the lesson to suit the class, which may mean we don't cover all the intended material but will focus on what they need. Most people don't seem to mind this at all, it shows that the teacher is focussed on their learning as a group and adapting to meet the class needs rather than rattling off a prepared lesson.

But then my whole approach to teaching is 'this is what I want them to learn - how does this group learn? How can I best teach this group so that the most effective learning takes place?' and I suppose this flexibility of approach isn't appropriate in a dance teaching context where people expect a certain thing and can get annoyed if they don't get what they expect. (And I'm guilty of that as well, having just got frustrated at the teaching method in a tango class this week!)

[spindr]

If there's only a single option, it doesn't make much difference.

If there's multiple options available at the same time, then demo the routine (unless there's a really good description). For example, finding out halfway through a "smooth and slinky" routine that there are drops (or indeed close moves, or footwork, or style ) is too late.

SpinDr

[TheTramp]

If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out.

Sorry Lily. Don't agree with you. In all the classes I've taught, I've only changed the routine a couple of times. I've sometimes dropped off linking the last move back the the first move in intermediate classes. And occasionally have left off the last move, if the routine has taken significantly longer to teach than I anticipated.

A simple line like, "Okie, going to leave off the last move as we're running out of time. I'll teach it first next week", has always eliminated any problems for me.

You'll have guessed from this that I'm for demo's. I'd always want to know what I was about to learn if I was in a class.

Edit: I just added my vote, and it seems that this is one of the most one sided polls I've ever seen on this forum....

[Donna]

Nowadays I notice that some teachers don't demonstrate the routine at the start any more. I remember hearing the logic that absolute beginners could be put off by seeing the routine at the start, but I notice that some teachers don't "demo" the intermediate routines either.

This is true. In my venue we only demonstrate the intermediate routines. Other venues I have been to don't seem to demo at all. It doesn't really matter so much but I think it does if you demonstrate to beginners as you know what it's like before they walk in...they feel nervous. It feels much better for them if you just take it step by step and maybe show them how that one move should look before and after.

[Dancing Teeth]

I am afraid I am on the 'Don't demo' side. As a demo for some time for a very experienced Ceroc teacher (and as a teacher myself), it was a common occurence for the teacher half-way through the class to change the intended routine to something simpler, or to cut it short, because the class took far longer to learn the moves than we had anticipated. If we had kept to the original routine planned, we would have over-run the class quite substantially.

If we had demo'd the intended routine at the start, then failed to teach it in its entirety, people would feel that they had missed out. I know this for a fact, as I have experienced this reaction from people when I have either demo'd or taught as teacher. In fact, many people then come up to the teacher after the class and practically demand that the teacher show them the rest of the routine that was demo'd at the start of the class but which the teacher did not finish teaching. At the other extreme, there will also be those who are put off doing a class because the moves demo'd looked too difficult or involved a drop. Without the benefit of the teacher explaining in detail (during the class) how those moves can be done properly and safely or offering an alternative, it would be a little premature for people to drop out of doing the class entirely based on seeing the demo at the start of the lesson.

In any event, if a move is shown during the class which people did not feel happy doing, they are free to drop out at anytime. At least they would up till then have had the benefit of learning what had been taught in the class prior to the move they did not want to do.

Just my personal view from several years' experience as a teacher and demo.

LilyB

I definitely agree with Lily here... My 12 Years of teaching Weekly classes, Workshops and weekend events have taught me this.

The Other thing is Psychology.. This doesn't happen to all people but there are some, when they see what is in their opinion difficult. They convince themselves that, they can't do it and that’s it.
From the teachers view point, this becomes like teaching someone who can't see or hear you.

[Dancing Teeth]

I definitely agree with Lily here... My 12 Years of teaching Weekly classes, Workshops and weekend events have taught me this.

The Other thing is Psychology.. This doesn't happen to all people but there are some, when they see what is in their opinion difficult. They convince themselves that, they can't do it and that’s it.
From the teachers view point, this becomes like teaching someone who can't see or hear you.

This is also true to Teaching Easy moves first...

This is my preferred way, when people get comfortable with what they are doing; they are open to new challenges. That's when you bring in the so called difficult moves.

This is looked at from a learning prospective, not from a teachers view point of get the difficult ones out of the way first..

[TiggsTours]

I definitely agree with Lily here... My 12 Years of teaching Weekly classes, Workshops and weekend events have taught me this.

The Other thing is Psychology.. This doesn't happen to all people but there are some, when they see what is in their opinion difficult. They convince themselves that, they can't do it and that’s it.
From the teachers view point, this becomes like teaching someone who can't see or hear you.

I can understand this viewpoint, and agree I have done some superb classes where the class was not demoed at the beginning. It also gives the teacher some space to restructure the class according to how the class are doing, which they can't if they have demoed it already (sorry if this has been said, I haven't had a chance to read it).

The main reason I think a class should be demoed though, is because it gives you the option to not join in if there is something that could be detrimental to your health, or you strongly object to learning for any personal reason. For example, if there is a drop, and you have an injury, it gives you the option to bow out immediately, I have been in classes where I have told my partner I don't want to do the move, but he has still led me into it, forcefully, against my request. Also, as a female, I may want to go into a class as a lead, but then find there are particular moves (overtly up close & sexy, or more advanced drops) that I won't feel comfortable doing as a lead. I have even been in beginner classes where the slow comb is led, and both I and my partner (bearing in mind they are generally very new to dancing, and not comfortable with being so up close and personal with a female they don't know) have felt uncomfortable, me feeling uncomfortable at their discomfort.

I think that if teachers choose not to demo a routine, they must be prepared to offer alternative moves to any moves that people may potentially have good reason to not want to attempt.