Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

[stewart38]

Ceroc has a structure, we get new dancers through the doors and give them a good time.

Ceroc is NOT about making dancers out of people. It never has been, it is about helping people enjoy themselves and forget about their day.

That is why Ceroc is so successful.

If people want to really learn, they will do workshops and have private lessons, but the majority don't care. If they learn new moves great, but so what.

I have been teaching Ceroc ooo a long time. I have seen many many many many people come along and learn. BUT the ones who have become great dancers, the ones I approached on their very first evenings and said "hey give it a short time learn some moves and I want you as a teacher" were always going to be great dancers, whether they had ever danced or not.

Why do some of competitors do so well. When I say competitors I am referring to the member of the class who decide to go it alone. They set up a Cr** night in a cr** venue with cr** music using cr** equipment and have a huge following. Answer, because the majority of the customers just want to have a social night out.

As soon as we give Ceroc a really solid structure, we have signed its death certificate.

WE have all the structure we need. A SIMPLE class for beginners, a relatively easy class for intermediates and a good length freestyle with good music for the more advanced, with plenty of freestyle nights.

Try and cater to the top end and forget about the people who just want to have fun and look what happens, RIP Hipsters.

James Cronin never wanted competitions in Ceroc. I disagreed with him but realise he was right. It takes away from Ceroc the whole idea that it is non competitive and just good innocent fun.

You wonderful beautiful forumites are what %age of the numbers that go to Ceroc during a week? in round numbers probably very near 0.

forum total members, 1839, Total number of Ceroc members, probably nearer 300,000. Forumites as a %age = 0.01 in other words we do not exist

We stand for nothing our posts are pointless, what are we doing here

This is all getting a bit too Douglas Adamsish

Nope, let it carry on as it is. I love it and would not want to see it changed, (much).

We can teach better, yes but that is different from having a structure.

Maybe people who need a tight structure need, na, save that for another thread

Adam

What a brilliant post and im repeating in full because i agree with it all bar one thing

I do think there is a market for 'better dancers' but that needs time

Incidentally the best thing that has happened to ceroc in the last 5yrs is (as they have competitions) having a catergory where you have to dance some or all of the 16 basic moves. Thats very good marketing

[David Bailey]

Despite this being an MJ discussion and not a Ceroc one, it's worth noting that Ceroc is starting to cater for the advanced dancers; there are specific advanced nights (e.g. Jive Bar) and advanced workshops (e.g. Franck's series) which are being set up. But IMO this is happening too slowly and in too piecemeal a fashion.

I really like mashed potato.

But do you like the Phoney Baloney?

[Mary]

Despite this being an MJ discussion and not a Ceroc one, it's worth noting that Ceroc is starting to cater for the advanced dancers; there are specific advanced nights (e.g. Jive Bar) and advanced workshops (e.g. Franck's series) which are being set up. But IMO this is happening too slowly and in too piecemeal a fashion.

I really like the sound of what Franck's doing, but from what I gather that's not the kind of thing happening at the Jive Bar.

M

[David Bailey]

I really like the sound of what Franck's doing, but from what I gather that's not the kind of thing happening at the Jive Bar.

Exactly - that's my complaint, it's "piecemeal". Or "inconsistent" if you prefer

[LMC]

If by structure, we're talking about format, then the Ceroc model is evidently a good one.

Where I think more structure is required is in content - particularly lead and follow as someone has said already (sorry, just read all 42 posts, can't be bothered to scroll all the way up again). I was frustrated with MJ within less than six weeks - until my eyes were opened to lead and follow (within 6 minutes at a freestyle). Of course I'm still working on it and always will be. MJ is a partner dance, without connection, it doesn't matter how many moves either partner knows, it ain't going to work as a dance.

Ceroc is NOT about making dancers out of people. It never has been, it is about helping people enjoy themselves and forget about their day.

So why does it market itself as turning you into a dancer in one evening then?

[stewart38]

If by structure, we're talking about format, then the Ceroc model is evidently a good one.

Where I think more structure is required is in content - particularly lead and follow as someone has said already (sorry, just read all 42 posts, can't be bothered to scroll all the way up again). I was frustrated with MJ within less than six weeks - until my eyes were opened to lead and follow (within 6 minutes at a freestyle). Of course I'm still working on it and always will be. MJ is a partner dance, without connection, it doesn't matter how many moves either partner knows, it ain't going to work as a dance.


So why does it market itself as turning you into a dancer in one evening then?

Ceroc has been around about 50 times longer then you have been dancing it

So explain to us thickies what isnt 'working' in ceroc. your saying ceroc is partner dance without connection ?

I did ballroom dancing but didnt like the 'structure' or the 17 people there (cira 1994)

[LMC]

Why so aggressive?

your saying ceroc is partner dance without connection ?

It can be - a lot of people struggle with lead and follow: I know I did (and still have a long way to go). IMO, people's MJ experience would be vastly improved if lead and follow basics were taught as a matter of course in the main classes rather than only in workshops or some review classes. It only takes a couple of minutes for most people to "get" connection walking backwards and forwards, and some Ceroc venues do teach it - but it seems to be up to the individual teacher/taxis.

[Saxylady]

Isn't lead and follow intrinsic to any improvised partner dance?

[David Bailey]

Isn't lead and follow intrinsic to any improvised partner dance?

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

[Andybroom]

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

Except that modern jive (as originally conceived) uses a system of hand etc. signals rather than lead and follow. This is not the same.

In original MJ if the guy signals a first move the lady can dance it with the guy just standing there.

Now some people (in the Bristol area, anyway) don't use signals anymore and some of the classes either don't teach the signals at all or, if they do, it's only in a cursory way to beginners.

This is because, of course, no "signalling" is necessary if you lead the move. (That means leading every step in the move, not just initiating it).

I don't actually know what happens in other areas (or in the Ceroc organisation classes - never been to one - nothing against them, just isn't one close to me).

When I dance out of area I don't ever have much problem getting girls to follow my (signal less) lead, but I'm a pretty experienced leader (though I say so myself) so that doesn't overly surprise me. How others get on (and to what extent they use signalling) I don't know.

Andy

[El Salsero Gringo]

So why does it market itself as turning you into a dancer in one evening then?

Um, well, it doesn't. It says, "learn to dance in one evening", not "become a dancer in one evening."

(Like "learn French in one evening", is not the same as "become French in one evening". And, in one evening, it's possible to learn some passable French. Just not very much.)

[Minnie M]

When I dance out of area I don't ever have much problem getting girls to follow my (signal less) lead, but I'm a pretty experienced leader (though I say so myself) so that doesn't overly surprise me. How others get on (and to what extent they use signalling) I don't know.

Andy

I had that problem last night, funny enough my partner was called Andy (but from Surrey) He kept pressing his thumb on the back of my hand whilst twisting it slightly - that being my signal for the "Arches" It was in fact his own move when he turns by himself, so we had a couple of clashes

[Yogi_Bear]

I totally agree with you here. I've been discussing this with my partner recently and did once think about giving MJ up because of it's lack of structure. I'd like something that is more challenging such as Ballroom/Latin as it has a set structure and there is much more to learn, and even then you're focusing on technique. With MJ, there is only so much you can learn until there is nothing else to do with it after.

I don't know where modern Jive is going...but my guess is it will just end up being a mixture of WCS (as it's now becoming very popular and makes MJ look good) and latin.

I would say that some of the better MJ dancers already incorporate a fair degree of either WCS, latin, or both. Will WCS ever supplant MJ?

[clevedonboy]

Will WCS ever supplant MJ?

no, why would one "illegitimate child" of Lindy surplant another? especially when it doesn't have a marketing machine behind it, it doesn't have the cache of Lindy in the wider population and it's harder to learn than MJ

[Magic Hans]

...
It can be - a lot of people struggle with lead and follow: I know I did (and still have a long way to go). IMO, people's MJ experience would be vastly improved if lead and follow basics were taught as a matter of course in the main classes rather than only in workshops or some review classes.
...

Totally agree. I've yet to experience an MJ class/session that has even come close to teaching/training/facilitating/coaching lead/follow to any my satisfaction. [Not that I'm saying that it's easy ... I don't think it is]

!an

[El Salsero Gringo]

Will WCS ever supplant MJ?

Yes - as soon as people work out how to dance WCS to Kylie.

[Yogi_Bear]

Yes - as soon as people work out how to dance WCS to Kylie.

Or if no-one plays Kylie any more

[Yogi_Bear]

no, why would one "illegitimate child" of Lindy surplant another? especially when it doesn't have a marketing machine behind it, it doesn't have the cache of Lindy in the wider population and it's harder to learn than MJ

Well, look at the US, where WCS and MJ's positions are reversed from what they are in the UK.
But it's simple. The points have been made before. MJ has a brilliant business model. It packs the punters in with the USP of a fun night out with your mates, a bit of close contact with the opposite sex, it's dead easy to learn, you won't have to bother with footwork, and so on. After a while some of the punters realise there's more to dancing than racking up a library of 500 moves and churning them out ad nauseam. They move out of MJ and into Lindy, WCS, tango or whatever. Or they might learn from teachers such as Nigel and Nina who show just what can be done with the MJ framework. They attend a master class in the first move and its variations, subleties, etc...Their numbers are replaced by new beginners looking for a fun night out. Which is exactly what MJ in its current incarnation delivers.

[Robin]

Have to add a little "snippet".

Whilst over in Spain recently I carried out a little "test" with one of the ceroc "wannabee" teachers who happens to be a formidable Tango dancer/teacher already.

I played a track which was specifically a tango and asked him to dance his own thing to it for a minute or so, then I did the same (with the same partner).
Would you be surprised to know that with all the lack of "structure" within MJ/Ceroc, there was hardly any difference in the dancing/style ?

[best John Hurt voice] Curious ... very curious

[LMC]

Yeah, but you've been dancing for years Robin!

Some intermediate/advanced dancers have worked it out for themselves, and/or have had individual help from taxis, teachers and other dancers and/or are in the minority who actually "bother" with the workshops. As a "mid-intermediate", I fall into this category.

However, some of this type of tuition can be contradictory and confusing. I just can't help thinking that it would be a lot easier for beginners and early intermediates to progress faster if some of the basic concepts were included in lessons as "standard". Even in my very short experience taxi-ing I've had beginner leads complaining that they are being "held back" in their learning by intermediate followers who are backleading or have spaghetti arms. If just a couple of minutes on lead and follow were included in all beginners lessons, maybe more people would start actually dancing, rather than performing moves to music, in a much shorter space of time.