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Thread: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

  1. #21
    Donna
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I've a short video clip of James Cronin teaching and dancing, and his style is almost unrecognisable compared to today's heros. Very bouncy, huge steps in and out - certainly wouldn't go down well at Jango...
    And still is bouncy with big steps today! Imagine...if everybody did ceroc at the same time, this island would sink!

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Donna
    And still is bouncy with big steps today! Imagine...if everybody did ceroc at the same time, this island would sink!
    Is that like the way the world would stand still if everyone suddenly decided to drive on the opposite side of the road?!

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    Registered User Allez-Cat's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans
    MJ has the most loose structure in terms of dance moves, this gives me the opportunity to express (myself) to the music rather than having to concentrate on where my left foot has to go next.
    I'd go along with that!

    I have a spinal weakness (old injury) which makes me less nimble. Add to this the fact that I was brought up on a “disco diet” and never had the benefit of any formal dance training, then MJ came as revelation. I’ll never win a Championship, but I’m delighted that I can get onto the dance floor and do justice by my partner without inviting ridicule from purse-lipped purists. And I’m told I have a “neat wiggle”. Hmmmm. I enjoy the classes and workshops, and I'm content to take from them what complements me and my capabilities whilst discarding what doesn’t suit. If I needed - or wanted - strict structures or a formalised framework, there’s a host of other dance codes out there. But with MJ I can readily develop my dance style by introducing elements from other disciplines whilst knowing that I’m free to personalise. As it stands, MJ’s good by me.

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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I was discussing this with a friend a couple of days ago, and we wondered what a Tango technique class would look like in MJ.

    It would probably involve several classes for each single move - in fact, you could spend a 10-week session on the First Move, focussing on posture, transference, lead-and-follow, hand-hold, balance, connection, spinning and turning technique, and so on.

    It'd be great - I'd be a total sucker for that kind of course. But I suspect it'd bankrupt Ceroc if they implemented it as a standard teaching mechanism, because 95% of beginners wouldn't have the patience, commitment or enthusiasm for it.
    It would be comparable to learning technique in latin. Sure you have your basic steps for the dances, but most teachers will break things down to the basic unit of movement - walking. This might sound out there, but it takes years to develop a rumba, cha cha or cruzada walk. I'm sure that there have been many that have grabbed a latin video and wondered why they do not look the same as the people on the video, even when they have copied the move step by step.
    You learn to apply the technique to what ever move you want to do. I'm sure that much latin choreography resembles ceroc moves, but there is the attention to the detail of movement that is not taught in ceroc for various reasons.

  5. #25
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I was discussing this with a friend a couple of days ago, and we wondered what a Tango technique class would look like in MJ.

    It would probably involve several classes for each single move - in fact, you could spend a 10-week session on the First Move, focussing on posture, transference, lead-and-follow, hand-hold, balance, connection, spinning and turning technique, and so on.

    It'd be great - I'd be a total sucker for that kind of course. But I suspect it'd bankrupt Ceroc if they implemented it as a standard teaching mechanism, because 95% of beginners wouldn't have the patience, commitment or enthusiasm for it.
    Not just beginners - interesting to see the recent reaction of some MJers to their first experience of a tango class - one comment I heard was 'like watching paint dry'. The impact on beginners is probably a key issue for Ceroc - but there is a whole area of middle ground between taking 10-15 mins to teach a basic first move and taking 3 hours to teach more detailed technique for a first move.

    So if more structure is to be introduced, it needs to be carefully thought out and roadtested out how much at each level - where to stand on that middle ground.

    And to be honest, I'll have to admit that I might have become disillusioned with MJ after about a month if I hadn't found this forum. I was feeling that I was learning moves, when I wanted to learn how to dance. (Of course I didn't understand what I wanted and needed to learn, but I knew it was more than moves.)

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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    It would probably involve several classes for each single move - in fact, you could spend a 10-week session on the First Move, focussing on posture, transference, lead-and-follow, hand-hold, balance, connection, spinning and turning technique, and so on.

    It'd be great - I'd be a total sucker for that kind of course. But I suspect it'd bankrupt Ceroc if they implemented it as a standard teaching mechanism, because 95% of beginners wouldn't have the patience, commitment or enthusiasm for it.
    My point was that the first move is not a move which requires any of those points which you've listed. Yes, if you have learnt the technique, you can dance a better first move, but it's a move which can be used by beginners.

    I'm not saying that all of the points you have mentioned are not applicible to a first move, and it's perfectly possible to drip feed them in whilst teaching the beginner moves to beginners (and I can't understand why this is believed to be a bad thing). Yes, teach some technique to beginners, but keep the dance such that beginners don't NEED technique.

    What is missing in order to allow the dance to move forward is some basic paterns which are not designed for beginners, but are not in themselves just 'extras' like simply adding footwork or dips (which is neither a threshold to more moves nor useful in general social dancing - who can lead 1st move charleston with 50% of the ladies in an average venue?).

    Part of the reason that the only difficult moves taught in an intermediate class are awkward and uncomfortable is that there are not many teachers who understand how to create moves which rely on balance and connection. It's much simpler to teach nasty moves, and give the impression that learning these will make you a better dancer, than to teach a move where better technique really makes a difference to how well the move flows.

    At the moment, the hardest reasonably common lead/follow move I can come up with is a left handed sway. I wouldn't expect 2 beginners to be very successfull using a move like this in freestyle, even if they'd been taught it well.

    Sean

  7. #27
    Donna
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    This might sound out there, but it takes years to develop a rumba, cha cha or cruzada walk.

    Not years. I've heard of people who have picked it up very rapidly and do well in competitions. It's possible but I suppose the majority would take years to master it.


    I'm sure that there have been many that have grabbed a latin video and wondered why they do not look the same as the people on the video, even when they have copied the move step by step.
    I hold my hand up to that one. It's a well known fact that you can't really learn by watching videos. It gets you nowhere. Ok, you can learn the MOVE but what makes them look different is the timing, dynamics and of course technique. You'd never get that unless you had private tuition of course.

  8. #28
    Ceroc Franchisee & Teacher cerocmetro's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Ceroc has a structure, we get new dancers through the doors and give them a good time.

    Ceroc is NOT about making dancers out of people. It never has been, it is about helping people enjoy themselves and forget about their day.

    That is why Ceroc is so successful.

    If people want to really learn, they will do workshops and have private lessons, but the majority don't care. If they learn new moves great, but so what.

    I have been teaching Ceroc ooo a long time. I have seen many many many many people come along and learn. BUT the ones who have become great dancers, the ones I approached on their very first evenings and said "hey give it a short time learn some moves and I want you as a teacher" were always going to be great dancers, whether they had ever danced or not.

    Why do some of competitors do so well. When I say competitors I am referring to the member of the class who decide to go it alone. They set up a Cr** night in a cr** venue with cr** music using cr** equipment and have a huge following. Answer, because the majority of the customers just want to have a social night out.

    As soon as we give Ceroc a really solid structure, we have signed its death certificate.

    WE have all the structure we need. A SIMPLE class for beginners, a relatively easy class for intermediates and a good length freestyle with good music for the more advanced, with plenty of freestyle nights.

    Try and cater to the top end and forget about the people who just want to have fun and look what happens, RIP Hipsters.

    James Cronin never wanted competitions in Ceroc. I disagreed with him but realise he was right. It takes away from Ceroc the whole idea that it is non competitive and just good innocent fun.

    You wonderful beautiful forumites are what %age of the numbers that go to Ceroc during a week? in round numbers probably very near 0.

    forum total members, 1839, Total number of Ceroc members, probably nearer 300,000. Forumites as a %age = 0.01 in other words we do not exist

    We stand for nothing our posts are pointless, what are we doing here

    This is all getting a bit too Douglas Adamsish

    Nope, let it carry on as it is. I love it and would not want to see it changed, (much).

    We can teach better, yes but that is different from having a structure.

    Maybe people who need a tight structure need, na, save that for another thread

    Adam

  9. #29
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro
    ~snip~


    I agree with what Adam said. Was going to write it, but I couldn't be bothered typing it all out.

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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Since there are already marvellous structured dance forms for MJ dancers to attend (Lindy in one direction of interest, Tango in another), why introduce such structure to MJ?

    I'm really hooked on Lindy but I would not have gone near it if I hadn't begun with MJ and enjoyed it for what it is. I can also see that it's structure which is so fundamental to doing the dance well, would leave most questioning why they should bother - after all it's hard work. Of course it has it's pay offs - there's nothing in MJ that can touch nailing a Lindy Turn or just messing about with Charleston steps, but when it comes down to it, it's a different dance than the one most people going to MJ (well the men anyway ) would ever want to do

  11. #31
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancing Teeth
    What do people think... ??
    Ceroc has structured moves. They are called beginner moves. Each one "teaches" some core principle that the majority of the rest of the moves are based on.

    I can do a "man spin" in twelve different ways; Each one can vary in style, position, lead and timing from moment to moment. It teaches the principle of maintaining contact with your partner while letting go with your hands. It teaches how/where to catch a free hand. Etc.

    The beginner workshops that Ceroc run cover about half the moves in detail enough for the beginner dancer to grasp the basics of it. I think that having a "masterclass" on each of the beginner moves would be a great idea. You already get ones concentrating on spins and turns; why not ones focusing on x move?

    What is apparently* missing is teaching of techniques of lead/follow/balance/movement/musicality/footwork/... But I don't think that these should be 'formalised'.
    As with the rest of the dance, they should be introduced as options. Gateways to other avenues that your dancing has not yet taken you. To write down rules of "this is the correct way to do it" seems to also imply that "this is the only way to do it" and this is at opposition to what I think the whole MJ dance is about.

    *I've never seen it: I'm only going by the comments here rather than personal experience - I've been taught these things without really seeking them.

  12. #32
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro
    Ceroc has a structure, we get new dancers through the doors and give them a good time.
    Technically, the question is "Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ" not "Is it Time We had formal Structure in Ceroc" - slightly different.

    I've snipped the rest of the ra- err, post.

    But the end point, for Ceroc at least, is that in 10, 20 years' time when most of the UK population has rediscovered partner dancing, when everyone's raving about Argentine Tango, and when Ceroc is as popular as the Mashed Potato, then whoever's still doing Ceroc then will think "Hmmm, if only we'd developed the dance to compete with those others, back when we had the opportunity... "

  13. #33
    Registered User Mary's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro


    Adam

    I agree with about 99% of what Adam says. Most people who try Ceroc are just wanting to have a fun night out and learn some moves they can use. And this should continue to be encouraged.

    But there are some who come along and after a while (and I am talking about people who have never heard of the Ceroc Scotland Forum Franck) who would like to do something more with their new-found skills in MJ, but don't want to step outside their comfort zone and go try a more disciplined dance style.

    Ceroc has already started to address this with some of it's workshops. I don't know how the numbers stack up (to quote a friends expression), but maybe this could be extended further. The market and infrastructure is already there, and the more specialist knowledge is already there in the shape of Ceroc affiliate teachers or whatever the term is.

    The beginners workshops are already plugged by the taxi dancers in the consolidation class, but I never really hear of the availability of more specialist workshops being plugged in the intermediate classes.

    Now I HAVE to get on with something useful. This forum is evil

    M

  14. #34
    Donna
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Ceroc has a structure, we get new dancers through the doors and give them a good time.
    Because it's easy.

    Ceroc is NOT about making dancers out of people. It never has been, it is about helping people enjoy themselves and forget about their day.

    yep.


    That is why Ceroc is so successful.
    and i suppose that's where the money really is.

    If people want to really learn, they will do workshops and have private lessons, but the majority don't care. If they learn new moves great, but so what.
    Once experienced enough, they go looking for something else. Then more beginners come through the door and so on and so on.

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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro
    Ceroc has a structure, we get new dancers through the doors and give them a good time.

    Ceroc is NOT about making dancers out of people. It never has been, it is about helping people enjoy themselves and forget about their day.

    That is why Ceroc is so successful.


    As soon as we give Ceroc a really solid structure, we have signed its death certificate.

    WE have all the structure we need. A SIMPLE class for beginners, a relatively easy class for intermediates and a good length freestyle with good music for the more advanced, with plenty of freestyle nights.

    Try and cater to the top end and forget about the people who just want to have fun and look what happens, RIP Hipsters.

    We can teach better, yes but that is different from having a structure.

    Maybe people who need a tight structure need, na, save that for another thread

    Adam
    (Apologies for snips from your post for brevity)

    I think you are, in part, confusing Ceroc, the commercial dance organisation with Modern Jive, the dance.

    Clearly anyone wanting to maximise their profits (or maybe even make a profit at all) is going to cater for the mass - which, certainly for the forseeable future is going to be beginners and "intermediates" who just, as you say, want a simple evening out and some fun.

    Now I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, at all. That's what the Ceroc organisation say's it does and, by and large it does it and does it well. As do a collection of MJ groups not affiliated to the Ceroc organisation.

    BUT it's not the whole story. There is a group of people who are quite experienced dancers (either through MJ only or because they've done other dance forms also) who are looking for something more. It may well not be commercially viable for you to provide much/anything for them (since I'm probably one of them I should say us) but that's a rather different matter.

    There is no reason why we shouldn't take modern jive onto another plane without effecting your beginners/"intermediates" "fun" operation. And I rather doubt us doing so would detract for your operation in any case. A lot of people start dancing because they want too be able to do what they've seen skilled dancers do.

    Actually I'm not sure that a formal structure is the answer anyhow, for myself I rather prefer the improvisational stuff which a formal structure would not allow for. Formal structuring is all very well but (as has happened with ballroom, which does have such a structure) it does tend to inhibit the long term evolution of the dance.

    Andy

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary
    I agree with about 99% of what Adam says. Most people who try Ceroc are just wanting to have a fun night out and learn some moves they can use. And this should continue to be encouraged.

    But there are some who come along and after a while (and I am talking about people who have never heard of the Ceroc Scotland Forum Franck) who would like to do something more with their new-found skills in MJ, but don't want to step outside their comfort zone and go try a more disciplined dance style.
    The point of this thread though wasn't to knock the 'easy to learn, fun night out' approach of Ceroc - I don't think that was the issue being addressed, as I understood it anyway. It was to open a discussion about people who want a bit more structure in the dancing theyare being taught - not just more experienced dancers who need extra challenge but also the personality type who prefer more structure when learning. Regardless of whether they have natural talent or not - its about how people like to learn. I think saying basically 'there is no point in discussing this' which was how I read Adams post, to be rather unhelpful.

    And I think he has missed the point somewhat - it wasn't about the structure of teaching or how a night is run, I'm sure people would find the majority of salsa classes a lot less structured in that respect, but in terms of the structure of the dance itself. As I understood it anyway - and I have heard similar comments from other people regarding MJ.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    ...when Ceroc is as popular as the Mashed Potato, then whoever's still doing Ceroc then will think "Hmmm, if only we'd developed the dance to compete with those others, back when we had the opportunity... "
    I really like mashed potato.

  18. #38
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Nice post Adam. Great that we have someone like you that will post incisive, provocative stuff like this... allow me to respond in kind



    Quote Originally Posted by cerocmetro
    Ceroc has a structure, we get new dancers through the doors and give them a good time.

    Ceroc is NOT about making dancers out of people. It never has been, it is about helping people enjoy themselves and forget about their day.

    That is why Ceroc is so successful.
    Of course it is. No one's disputing this. And no one's disputing that it's just as important as it ever was to ensure that the majority are catered for. With, as you say,
    A SIMPLE class for beginners, a relatively easy class for intermediates and a good length freestyle with good music for the more advanced, with plenty of freestyle nights.
    Moving on...

    If people want to really learn, they will do workshops and have private lessons, but the majority don't care.
    This is also true, but typically superficial. The whole point of this debate and others like it is to find a way of keeping all the great things about the appeal of MJ, as exemplified by Ceroc's approach to it, while not designing out the opportunity for it to become more than a second rate dance that's only good enough to give a load of non-dancers a good social night out.

    BUT the ones who have become great dancers, the ones I approached on their very first evenings and said "hey give it a short time learn some moves and I want you as a teacher" were always going to be great dancers, whether they had ever danced or not.
    Bless. Although I'm sure this is true, it's elitist crap.

    If you're in the position of being a fantastic natural dancer, or indeed in the position of being able to talent-spot the fantastic natural dancers and bathe in the reflected glory arising from their nurture, everything's rosy, isn't it?

    But if you have the misfortune to fall between the "not interested in improving, just want a fun night out" and "potential professional dancer" ends of the spectrum, then you're buggered, in the absence of a development path.

    As soon as we give Ceroc a really solid structure, we have signed its death certificate.
    If you do it by losing its accessibility, then I agree. But no one here is suggesting anything of the sort, and indeed everyone that's been commenting seems to be very much aware of the need to keep that USP.

    Try and cater to the top end and forget about the people who just want to have fun and look what happens, RIP Hipsters.
    The idea that Hipsters died because it only catered for a tiny subsection of modern jivers is far too simplistic. I would argue that it fizzled out for many reasons, one of which being that it ultimately failed to cater for the very people you are saying are insignificant, quite the reverse of what you're saying. This just sounds like gloating to me.

    James Cronin never wanted competitions in Ceroc. I disagreed with him but realise he was right. It takes away from Ceroc the whole idea that it is non competitive and just good innocent fun.
    Oh yeah? So why did you bother making the Jivemasters into such a fantastic event?

    The point is, Modern Jive has the potential to be all these things. It can be good innocent fun if that's your bag, but competitive if that is. Neither one detracts from the other, and I would argue that each is the richer for it.

    Nope, let it carry on as it is. I love it and would not want to see it changed, (much).

    We can teach better, yes but that is different from having a structure.
    Well maybe if you did (not just you, obviously), people that wanted to get better (without already being god's gift to dance ), wouldn't be wondering if introducing more structure in some areas might improve things a bit.

  19. #39
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I really like mashed potato.
    Mmm, but champ is even better!

  20. #40
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    Re: Is it Time We had formal Structure in MJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    The point of this thread though wasn't to knock the 'easy to learn, fun night out' approach of Ceroc - I don't think that was the issue being addressed, as I understood it anyway. It was to open a discussion about people who want a bit more structure in the dancing theyare being taught - not just more experienced dancers who need extra challenge but also the personality type who prefer more structure when learning. Regardless of whether they have natural talent or not - its about how people like to learn. I think saying basically 'there is no point in discussing this' which was how I read Adams post, to be rather unhelpful.

    And I think he has missed the point somewhat - it wasn't about the structure of teaching or how a night is run, I'm sure people would find the majority of salsa classes a lot less structured in that respect, but in terms of the structure of the dance itself. As I understood it anyway - and I have heard similar comments from other people regarding MJ.
    Good post Lynn. I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys learning something with stucture. That's why I think that there is so much more that can be explored in MJ AND stay within the majority's learning comfort zone.

    Oh dear, am I doing a DJ wibble (help).

    M

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