Big Headed Beginners!

[Donna]

thanks to my own knowledge and experience of other dance styles, some of which I have done to a fairly advanced level and have even taught.

Hi Babycass

welcome to forum.

What other styles have you done? Interested to know.

[babycass77]

Hey folks thanks for the welcomes.

This is the first time I have done any form of partner dancing. I have done mostly ballet but have dabbled in a few other styles too. I used to do highland when I was younger and competed regularly until I had to bow out with knee problems. I've also done a little bit of jazz and a little bit less Irish dance and some tap a number of years ago. I suppose I'm fairly well versed in a lot of dance styles. I'm far from good. I find it difficult to get to classes often enough between work and a hectic life. I do love it though. Dance is my one true passion in life and since I discovered ceroc a very short while ago, I can't get enough of it. I think my enthusiasm definitely shows in classes! I'm generally the one who cannot sit still and even aftre a dance if I'm not trying to scout for another dance then I'm found watching other people. I think it's lovely to watch.

[ducasi]

... I still think that as a complete beginner you can tell who the better dancers are. ...

So just because I am a beginner, does it mean that I don't have the right to judge - or rather to feel - who is a better lead? Also does it mean that I shouldn't say to someone "I like dancing with you because you are a strong lead and I find you easy to follow..." (Although I would never say the opposite to someone who wasn't easy for me to follow

Cass, you are so right.

As a beginner I got criticised for judging people as good or bad dancers – but you're right – a beginner can tell just as well, if not more so, who is giving them a good dance and who isn't.

The only thing I'd maybe disagree with you is over whether a strong lead is necessarily better. As a relative beginner you're probably looking for a unambiguous lead, but that doesn't necessarily mean strong.

[Whitebeard]

The only thing I'd maybe disagree with you is over whether a strong lead is necessarily better. As a relative beginner you're probably looking for a unambiguous lead, but that doesn't necessarily mean strong.

Just what I thought when reading that Ducassi. The alternative I had in mind was that the lead should be clear in its intention. I love those moments where the lead is weak in physical terms but strong in the intensity of the connection.

[Gadget]

It all depends. See, if you lead it the way they may find comfortable with, then that might be totally wrong and therefore will not work with others.

? Really? I have never found anything that is comfortable and smooth with one person, then uncomfortable with another. :shrug: (It may not be as comfortable or as smooth, but it's not uncomfortable.)

There should only be one way to lead so that everybody can follow.

No. Sorry, but if I led a beginner in the same way as I lead an experianced dancer, they would probably just loose contact and stand asking me what they are meant to do.
If I led a better dancer in the same way as I would lead a beginner, they would find it very uncomfortable - the movements too big, too forcefull in some bits, out of time in other bits, pushed and pulled all over the floor.

The lead has to addapt to the responsivenss and tension of their partner. I dance with my partner, with feedback from them and addapting to them. If I can't change to addapt to them, why should I to expect them to change and addapt to me? {Exception being pain: Number one rule - don't cause your partner pain.}

It this one person struggles to follow a move that everybody else can and tries telling you how it should be done..then that's just their opinion. It will be almost like they are teaching themselves to be lead into something that would only feel right when dancing with you. When she starts dancing with people, she will still struggle.

This is the argument against having a regular dance partner.
The question is why do they struggle? If your answer is because they are not following correctly, then that poses the question Why can't they follow correctly?
In the people you are describing, they take it upon themselves to try and work out why and fix it {a good thing }. This implys that they want it to be fixed, so are not above a little guidance themselves - ask why they want a specific movement, then show them an alternative to get the same result.
Both partners improve. Win-Win situation.

Does that mean that everybody needs to improve on their lead?

Almost certainly. Except followers. They don't need to improve their lead. They need to decrease their anticipation and increase their reactions.

[Gadget]

I find it difficult to get to classes often enough between work and a hectic life. I do love it though. Dance is my one true passion in life and since I discovered ceroc a very short while ago, I can't get enough of it.

So where do you dance then?

{Welcome btw }

[babycass77]

Hey ducasi and Whitebeard

Just read what you said about the difference between a strong lead and a clear lead and I totally agree with you. I don't think I really ever meant "strong" as in physically string but more clear. I know that my lack of knowledge and understanding because I'm new to Ceroc a means that I'm unable to follow some of the more subtle signals that a lead can give me and know that I'll improve on that in time (hopefully).


I also think that because I'm a beginner I can get easily confused between some of the very similar moves (really how many different "first moves are there - just kidding!!).


I do prefer to dance with someone who gives a clear signal. I think I always will. I find it interesting to dance with so many different people and "feel" so many different styles. I'm also at the stage that I like dancing someone who'll try a move which I've perhaps never seen or done; I love when it comes off as it makes me feel good as a dancer and makes me feel that I can improve and reach the next stage with a little more knowledge. Sometimes when I dance with someone I know what is expected of me, even though I don't know the move - that's how clear the signals are. That to me is the sign of a good dancer. They haven't forced me into a move (a different and less pleasant thing altogether) but through their clear, (common-sense?) signals, I have been able to "follow" them into a step. Does that make any sense at all?


hmm Sorry I think I've gone slightly off the topic here!

[ducasi]

... Sometimes when I dance with someone I know what is expected of me, even though I don't know the move - that's how clear the signals are. That to me is the sign of a good dancer. They haven't forced me into a move (a different and less pleasant thing altogether) but through their clear, (common-sense?) signals, I have been able to "follow" them into a step. Does that make any sense at all?

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, though "signals" is another dangerous word to use, as it's too easily confused with visual signals – much frowned upon round these parts...

The word you're really looking for is "lead".

Although you'll end up learning how to follow lots of moves, the skill you want to learn is simply how to follow a lead. And it sounds like you're making good progress.

[Princess Fi]

[QUOTE=Gadget] I dance with my partner, with feedback from them and addapting to them. If I can't change to addapt to them, why should I to expect them to change and addapt to me? QUOTE]

Totally - could not agree more. Each dance you have is going to be different, and good dance partners (both leading and following) should be able to compensate for anything to be able to get around it, and have a good and successful dance.

I mean, if I was going to borishly follow every lead I was given by a guy on his first night learning Ceroc, half of the time I wouldn't be moving, and the other half, I would be standing on him/bumping into the stage/bumping into other people/falling flat on my backside.

But that's not just something for ppl who are 'beginners'. I've been going a while, and there are days (more often than I would care to admit) where I am not totally 'in the dance zone' and I may be not in as much control of my spins for example. And the really good leads that I have danced with have been able to compensate for that (good on you guys!).

I think its just being able to build a good 'dance rapport' with your partner - regardless of whether you are the lead, or the one following, and regardless of how 'advanced' you are. Cause at the end of the day, you are dancing [I]with[I] the other person, not at them.

[killingtime]

As a beginner I got criticised for judging people as good or bad dancers – but you're right – a beginner can tell just as well, if not more so, who is giving them a good dance and who isn't.

Though I found, as a beginner, that I enjoyed dancing more with women who, I now realize, were back leading to a degree. In the case of experienced dancers who wouldn't anticipate and would only go where I was leading them I found that I didn't enjoy dancing with them as much (now it's reversed and they are just the sort of dancer I am looking for ). So I might have been a poor judge of who was a good follower back in the good ol' days.

As a relative beginner you're probably looking for a unambiguous lead.

I'm pretty sure that most followers look for that; beginner or not.

I also think that not all beginners that try to tell you what to do are big headed; sometimes I think they can just phrase it wrong.

I did have one women who did turn "It's always the lead's fault" on me which I felt a little taken aback by since I spent time during freestyle, at her request, to go over the move.

[Minnie M]

.........I did have one women who did turn "It's always the lead's fault" ............

I have heard this many times, and when the follower actually follows it normally is

However, when there is a surplus of women in classes I always join the queue as a lead, and I really feel for you guys, some women can be so hard to dance with - not only are they ignoring the lead (too busy trying to follow the teacher) they are back-leading so much that you need not be there

- only a small minority thankfully - but they do seem to appear in most classes

[Lynn]

Not a big headed beginner but relevant to the whole discussion on lead. I was dancing with a guy last night - it was his first class and he had been struggling so I got him up to have a go in the freestyle (on taxi duty). The first move was an arm jive and as I knew he was struggling to remember moves I said 'if you're stuck you can do the twist more than twice while you quickly think of the next move'. We went through the routine once and the second time after two twists in the arm jive I began to guide to slightly backlead his hand up to his shoulder (as I find a lot of guys seem to forget to do that) and he said 'Hey, I'm leading!'

[drathzel]

and he said 'Hey, I'm leading!'

Sounds like the same guy i was dancing with/backleading

[Tiggerbabe]

he said 'Hey, I'm leading!'

Hee, hee - Good for him

[DianaS]

'Hey, I'm leading!'

tee heee
I danced with a guy bot long ago that was so not leading that I threatened him with If I have to lead an y more I'll make you take the girls part
He giggled girlishly and fluttered his lashes at me!

[Ghost]

There should only be one way to lead so that everybody can follow.

The lead has to addapt

From my perspective there's two different ways of going about this
Either
I hone my lead to become more and more 'perfect'. In effect I'm trying to get the move to be the same every time. The aim is to get such a clear precise lead that anyone can follow it; in fact they shouldn't really be any other choice but to follow it as any other motion on their part wouldn't make sense.

Or I focus on the essence of the move and accept that I'll never dance it exactly the same way twice. In effect every time I do the move it's unique, a bit like Monet's different versions of the water lilies. So it becomes more about how to adapt and flow around the person, music etc.

Thing is, ultimately the two will end up at the same place. It's just a matter of personal preference as to how you get there.

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

I have heard this many times, and when the follower actually follows it normally is

This is one of my many pet gripes, and in fact I mentioned it in my "Top 10 smokescreens" thread waaaay back.

You notice this in Blues MJ and of course in AT a lot - the lead is invitational. If the lady ignores your invitation, goes off into a world of her own, or insists on dancing a completely inappropriate way (e.g. bouncing and spinning in Blues, dancing hyperspeed in AT), there's not much you as a leader can do about it, apart from grin and bear it.

OK, fair enough, you can sometimes (usually) force control - but that's not leading, that's wrestling.

[drathzel]

However, when there is a surplus of women in classes I always join the queue as a lead, and I really feel for you guys, some women can be so hard to dance with - not only are they ignoring the lead (too busy trying to follow the teacher) they are back-leading so much that you need not be there

i agree, and i actually find if i am in a position like that i come away with sore arms!

[ducasi]

This is one of my many pet gripes, and in fact I mentioned it in my "Top 10 smokescreens" thread waaaay back.

You notice this in Blues MJ and of course in AT a lot - the lead is invitational. ...

There are two rules:

1. The man is always right
2. It's always the man's fault

The key part being that if the lady follows rule number 1 and does exactly what the man lead, and it goes wrong, then rule number 2 applies – it's his fault. If the lady ignores rule number 1, all bets are off.

[Donna]

There are two rules:

1. The man is always right
2. It's always the man's fault

The key part being that if the lady follows rule number 1 and does exactly what the man lead, and it goes wrong, then rule number 2 applies – it's his fault. If the lady ignores rule number 1, all bets are off.

That sounds right to me.