Lack of Spacial Awareness or just totally oblivious/selfish of those around you ..?

[spindr]

Dancing near a pillar is *really* difficult; you have to keep much further away from it than you would from another dancing couple. So yes, I think it is harder to avoid stationary objects.

Nah, you're not really trying

Pillars are easy -- they aren't going to move (modulo Sampson dancing at your venue). Leaders can lean against them, or jump on / off them. If you've got a "willing partner" you can back them (slowly) into pillars. You can even dance around them -- peek-a-boo style.

SpinDr.

[Ghost]

Dancing near a pillar is *really* difficult; you have to keep much further away from it than you would from another dancing couple. So yes, I think it is harder to avoid stationary objects.

Thanks

Firstly I agree. it's counter-intuitive that a small, stationary object should be harder to avoid than a large moving one, but it seems to be true. Probably as mentioned the way our eyes are set up, maybe also the dynamics of Ceroc moves?

Secondly I diagree. I used the pillar to put my back to for a few posey moves knowing that I wouldn't be hit from behind and I was quite comfortable dancing near it for a few tracks. Not a problem. A while back I actually figured out which moves that could led keeping a lady between me and a wall eg Crucifix. But to be fair, my spatial awareness is probably better than average.

Thirdly, I actually want to know if anyone crashed into the pillar.

Lastly "you have to keep much further away from it than you would from another dancing couple" should be applied to stationary couples, beginners and the injured. If it's not then that's applying more consideration to a pillar than to stationary couples, beginners and the injured

Be Well,
Christopher

[El Salsero Gringo]

Lastly "you have to keep much further away from it than you would from another dancing couple" should be applied to stationary couples, beginners and the injured. If it's not then that's applying more consideration to a pillar than to stationary couples, beginners and the injured

I hold in great esteem not just pillars but buttresses, beams, cantilevers and all sorts of other usually-static load bearing members. They do a damn fine job of holding up the roof and other floors, and get little recognition or reward for the long hours they work. Respect.

[Ghost]

I hold in great esteem not just pillars but buttresses, beams, cantilevers and all sorts of other usually-static load bearing members. They do a damn fine job of holding up the roof and other floors, and get little recognition or reward for the long hours they work. Respect.

Ah, but surely even they pale in comparison to the magnificence of ladies, who sadly often get little recognition or reward for the long hours they work? I'm not too sure where they stand on holding up the roof and other floors, though they more than make up for it in their dancing As such, great care should be taken not to ruin their moments (which they're often kind enough to share) by unnecessarily crashing into them.

Christopher

[spindr]

I hold in great esteem not just pillars but buttresses, beams, cantilevers and all sorts of other usually-static load bearing members. They do a damn fine job of holding... and get little recognition or reward for the long hours they work. Respect.

Well, some people recognise both static and dynamic loading members and respect the long hours that they work holding, e.g. http://gendertree.com/a_stress_analy..._strapless.htm

SpinDr

[bigdjiver]

Did anyone crash into the pillar in the centre of the dance floor at the last Greenwich Winter Black and White Ball? Dancers seem quite capable of avoiding things like the stage, tables, chairs etc. Really, what's the difference between a table at the edge of a dance floor and Asif doing small stationary moves at the edge of the dance floor? Oh yeah, it hurts to crash into a table. Bumping the guy in the plaster cast however, not so much.

Christopher

The floor is also large, stationary and hurts if you bump into it. As for bumping into large vertical stationary objects I refer you to "Are you being framed?".

[Asif]

.... [snip] Very long but interesting ramble (see here) [snip ....

Glad you took the time to put down your thoughts/comments. There are a few things that need clarifying though.

Firstly, as i said, these were "new" observations on something that is always a good topic of debate. I certainly don't think i am over-reacting or using my bad shoulder as an excuse. I said that i suspected i was getting bumped into more than normal because "I WASN'T being as defensive with MY dancing as i normally am and moving myself out of others peoples way". Yes, i WAS ACTUALLY BLAMING MYSELF!!

What really antagonised me was the inability of some "supposedly" good dancers who have been dancing for donkeys years, to exercise caution when dancing near someone who is either a) not moving as quick as them, so not as able to divert an accident, or b) not taking up anywhere near as much space as them but still trying to "take-over" their dance space. The other thing that really annoyed me was when i got thumped by another dancer and didn't even get so much as a wink of acknowledgment that it had happend, let alone an apology. This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with me with my arm in the sling (but it certainly didn't help).

These are the reasons WHY, at certain venues, you will get dancers who keep away from particular areas of the dance floor (ie. near the stage with all the "good" dancers), just because they would worry more for their safety than enjoy the dance.

I never assume that people are rude or don't give a $hit when they are dancing. However, i do think there are people who are a little bit selfish when it comes to consideration towards other dancers. You use driving as an analogy and mention various things but no-one has mentioned the fact that there are OTHER DRIVERS on the road too. Dancing floorcraft or not, there must be a point where a bit of common sense must prevail. I mentioned Ed and said that he WAS observant (but he is anyway) and did avoid a couple of potential collisions! He may have good floorcraft but all he was doing was just looking WHERE he was dancing, that's all!

Hmmm.... everyone else was dancing and forming an "undulating mass of constantly moving bodys". And you decide to be like a stone in the middle of it and have everyone else wash around you. How is dancing like this any different from someone who walks accross the middle of a dance floor? How is standing at the edge, barely moving, any different from standing on the dance floor and chatting to your mates?

It is VERY DIFFERENT! I was moving, albeit not as quick as those around me. Using the driving analogy, should i be forced off the road by a more "experienced driver" just because i'm sticking to the speed limit or even driving like a learner? Someone walking across the floor is more difficult to avoid because you are not prepared for that. Whereas, the movement of someone dancing near you, taking up a little amount of space and doing small moves, is easier to predict. Also, if i was standing on the edge of the floor just chatting, i bet i would have been in less danger of getting bumped into. Dancers would "see" that where i was standing was they edge of the dancefloor space so they wouldn't even be moving towards it, in the hope that they could "occupy" it when i moved over.

Find a place with low traffic of non-dancers to dance in, but get 2 or 3 of your mates (with good floorcraft) to dance next to you as a buffer zone. ie anyone trying to get to you will have to successfully crash through them and keep going. That's real determination on their part!

Funny thing is, i made a conscious decision to dance in the area near the "better" dancers because i thought they would be more predictable than the beginners. And most of them were. Remember, my observations were limited to a few individuals. As for the buffer zone suggestion, what a great idea!! Any volunteers?

Asif's original a-c are three quite separate issues, all of which are real, and all of which are much more interesting than just simple impoliteness.

THANKYOU CHRIS! You understand the actual point i am making.

[David Bailey]

{ snip rant }

Nice rant

You're right of course, any reasonable dancer should be able to spot that you had your arm in a sling and make allowances, give you a bit more space. I guess there are a fair few unreasonable dancers at some venues though...

[Ghost]

OK I'll kick in a few other points -

"Familiarity breeds contempt" - old science maxim. The better you get at moves, the more comfortable you feel shaving the buffer zone down. I actually felt a lady's hair brush the back of my neck last week, the guy had led her so close. So if I feel a better couple's too close, I back off to re-establish a buffer I'm happy with. They then think, "Wow look at all that space, we only need a buffer of 2 inches" and start dancing in it. And so they chase me round the room. To borrow your driving analogy. I always leave about a 4 second gap if I'm driving on the motorway (twice the recommended minimum). And so car after car squeezes in front of me, not to 2 second gaps, but 1 second gaps, so I back off some more to re-establish the gap and it continues.

The problem is that occassionally the better dancers aren't quite as good as they thought cf car crashes on motorways - not fun!

I don't know if she was right, but a lady I was dancing with last week commented "I think the couple next to us is actually relying on you getting out of the way so they can keep doing big moves". I gather they were only doing them in our direction.

Carrying on with the car analogy. although the learners often make mistakes, get in the wrong lane etc, it's usually the more experienced drivers who feel comfortable taking risks, because they feel they're good enough. Thankfully they're in a minority, otherwise frankly it would be carnage.

Hopefully this is closer to what you're talking about.

Good luck with the buffer zone

Christopher

[Gadget]

It is VERY DIFFERENT! I was moving, albeit not as quick as those around me. Using the driving analogy, should i be forced off the road by a more "experienced driver" just because i'm sticking to the speed limit or even driving like a learner?

Closer anology would be driving a tractor in rush-hour.

"I WASN'T being as defensive with MY dancing as i normally am and moving myself out of others peoples way". Yes, i WAS ACTUALLY BLAMING MYSELF!!

Rather than increase your defensiveness to protect yourself and your partner, you lower it?? Eh? Why?
I'm reading this as a self-righteous attitude that everyone should cater for you because you are injured - I'm probably wrong, but I can't get past the "why?" above.

[Ghost]

OK - sometimes I write one of these things and it just doesn't convey what I feel. This should read a lot lighter. Think 2 guys drinking in a bar shooting the breeze. .

Rather than increase your defensiveness to protect yourself and your partner, you lower it?? Eh? Why?

I assumed it's painful moving much with a busted arm and / or medication slowing him down, so rather than rely on movement as a defense, he relied on being a semi-stationary target, being near competent dancers and being at the side. * Could well be wrong though.

Closer anology would be driving a tractor in rush-hour.

Dancing bluesy at the side to a fast track - not outrageous?

I'm reading this as a self-righteous attitude that everyone should cater for you because you are injured - I'm probably wrong, but I can't get past the "why?" above.

My take on this is that if a dancer has the floorcraft not to bump into people, they should use it. But unfortunately "should" is 'ideal world' stuff . In the real world I've commented that if a dancer is good enough to be dancing that well, they should be good enough not to bump into people. I have noticed that this isn't a problem on any of the busks I've been on. But ultimately everyone makes their own choices about how to develop their dance style. How high floorcraft is prioritised is going to vary from person to person. So while I agree that Asif shouldn't be bumped by experienced dancers, in the real world you just can't rely on it, especially cos of dear old Murphy's Law. Stuff happens .

Take care,
Christopher

* In my experience (having made all these mistakes)
Being a semi-stationary target - will protect the lady if she's completely in front of you eg crucifix, - you however are in potentially trouble if you're not wearing a Biker Jacket
Being near competent dancers - - You need to be near considerate dancers
Being at the side - get your back to a wall or the side and get both of you facing outwards in a bluesy move and the number of people hitting you will drop off as if by magic.

[Ghost]

Being at the side - get your back to a wall or the side and get both of you facing outwards in a bluesy move and the number of people hitting you will drop off as if by magic.

Or should that be inwards Which ever way's towards the dance floor (and the other dancers)
Be Well,
Christopher

[Feelingpink]

Closer anology would be driving a tractor in rush-hour.


Rather than increase your defensiveness to protect yourself and your partner, you lower it?? Eh? Why?
I'm reading this as a self-righteous attitude that everyone should cater for you because you are injured - I'm probably wrong, but I can't get past the "why?" above.

When's the last time you saw someone try to push a tractor out of the way? Do we now have a minimum dance floor speed?