Lack of Spacial Awareness or just totally oblivious/selfish of those around you ..?

[foxylady]

People can mostly walk down the street without crashing into people all the time, so if they had any awareness and gave a damn, they'd learn not to invade others' space on the dancefloor. But to a large extent they never do.

I think the whole "developing floorcraft skills" thing is mostly a red herring. You either care, or you don't, and you either are aware of what's going on around you, or you're not.

I did an experiment several years ago. One evening walking along Oxford Street I simply walked in a straight line, to see whether people would get out of my way.... Less than 50% did... A large proportion of people bumped into me, and several got cross that I was in their way ! (anyone else fancy trying it ?)

So I think the second part of ChrisA's ( ) quote is the right bit - you either care or you don't.... There are the people who get out of the way and the people who dont...


(on the dancefloor I have commented to a partner that there is not enough room to do what they are trying to lead, and have had the response " I'll do what I want to do and they'll have to get out of my way " more times than one would think !! I tend not to dance with those people again...)

[DangerousCurves]

One of the strangest dances I ever had was with a guy who was forcibly intent on spinning me fast several times, and doing lots of complicated arm-twisty moves THEN spinning me fast several times more.

I am a very poor spinner, so after a couple of moves said that I generally only like to do a single spin. This may have been taken as a challenge, because the number of spins per move increased and the lead became even more forceful. It was less like a dance than a wrestling bout! Inevitably, on a crowded floor, I finally staggered dazedly into a nearby lady and caught her a blow with my arm. I stopped to speak to her, and my partner seized me by the arm and tried to carry on. I pulled away from him, and said that I wanted to apologise. I checked that the other lady was ok and said I was very sorry - she actually hadn't been hurt - then resumed dancing. He then pulled me in close, absolutely livid, and hissed "You shouldn't have said ANYTHING! She had it coming!"

Then he commenced dancing furiously and very forcefully with exactly the same moves. A couple of seconds later, he launched me again in the direction of the same couple. This time I managed to pull up short of collision - but they had to pull up short too. The three of us exchanged a mutually appalled look, as my partner grabbed me again - but this time I wouldn't let him start dancing moves and said to him firmly "I am really not enjoying this dance." That's the only time I have ever said this to anyone. He was absolutely enraged and arm-jived me a couple of times as the record ended, then stormed off the floor.

A female friend at the same dance said to me later that she had experienced a very strange dance - and pointed out the same chap. She is a better spinner than me - but his overly-rough and forceful lead had hurt her shoulder.

We both mentioned him to the venue managers - who kept him in their sights. Within a few weeks, he wasn't dancing there any longer.....

I don't know why he danced like this, but certainly short of stopping the dance as I did, there wasn't much a follower could do to restrain him!

[ChrisA]

I did an experiment several years ago. One evening walking along Oxford Street I simply walked in a straight line, to see whether people would get out of my way.... Less than 50% did... A large proportion of people bumped into me, and several got cross that I was in their way ! (anyone else fancy trying it ?)

I did a similar experiment on a busy pavement too, once, in fact more than once, so astonished was I at the result.

I walked along in a straight line, pretending to be completely oblivious to those around me. I looked at shop fronts, cars going by, people on the other side of the road, anywhere but in the direction I was going.

Practically everyone got out of my way.

[PretzelMeister]

~snip~
So, the question is .... when you see people taking up loads of space, do you assume that :-

a) it is because they just haven't developed the tools/senses to dance within their "space" and so should be accommodated for,

b) they are so wrapped up in their dancing that they are totally oblivious to others around them, so let them carry on anyway, or,

c) they are selfish dancers and don't actually care who is around them or how much space they "should" be taking up, as long as they are enjoying themselves.

I'm feeling a bit bruised and battered from last night. I just hope that

Asif,

Please forgive the expression but it definitely seems to me that this seems to be a particularly sore point for you at the moment, and I what IMHO appears to be over-reaction is just that - an over-reaction - on account of your sore shoulder.

And I have to agree with points made by ESG & DJ - floorcraft is a skill that takes time to learn, we shouldn't assume nobody gives a sh1t. And we can all get a bit carried away sometimes.

If you take driving as an analogy for dancing - especially leading. When you start out, you're so busy concentrating on what the next (bit of a) move is, and how to lead it, that you probably don't have a whole lot of spare capacity for looking at the immediately visible traffic conditions around you - much less the reflection in the shop's plate glass window that tells you an ambulance is about rush around the blind corner, running the red lights at the junction.

And when you're at the stage of starting to have a bit spare capacity to look at the traffic, you may still not have good enough leading skills to put your partner where you want to, thus inadvertently leading her into a collision because she didn't go where you intended. Or maybe your partner hasn't quite got the hang of the following thing too well yet, and she doesn't go where you lead her, and thus bumps into someone. Or maybe either or both of you still have a tendency to take large steps and/or fully extend arms.

And yes - I would say that any/all of the above would (hopefully) only apply to relatively inexperienced or 'learner' dancers. Get over it. If you are driving, and you see someone with 'L'-plates on, I hope you would cut them a bit slack. I think a similar approach on the dancefloor is not unreasonable. I don't know how long you've been dancing but can you not ever remember bumping into people during the early days, I at least consider the possibility on some occasions that it may have been your fault? Is the incidence of that not considerably less now? We want to encourage new dancers. We want new dancers in our venues. It will vary from venue to venue, but I'd reckon there was a hugely higher concentration of 'L'-plate / 'P'-plate dancers in dance venues than there are on the roads.

So that's the less experienced dancers - what about the ones that don't have inexperience as an excuse? Let me think.... Ever enjoyed driving fast, perhaps sometimes maybe even exceeding the speed limit? Or maybe straddling lanes to take a straighter line through a corner? Or maybe heard a"thud-thud-thud" under your tyres, jolting you to realise you hadn't been concentrating 100% and had started to drift onto the hard shoulder? Sometimes experienced dancers will get carried away in the dance with their partner / music / whatever or have something on their mind which may result in the occasional bump. And if and when this happens I would hope, and generally find among any of the more experienced dancers at any of the venues in Scotland, that this is accompanied by an apology - and rightly so.

If you were on the road and someone was driving very aggressively behind you / tail-gating you, and there was someone with 'L'-plates in front, and close by was car being driven a short old lady struggling to peer over her steering wheel at the road ahead with reduced flexibility to spin her neck around and see the traffic around her and be more slow to react to any sudden changes, along with the guy who's not concentrating on the road because his wife is (rightly) giving him grief about something he has/hasn't done and the 3 young kids are screaming at each other in the back - what would you do? I know what I'd do - I'd get the hell outta there. I'm suggesting that the situation on the dancefloor isn't actually all that different.

As a more experienced dancer with better floorcraft (and I have no idea what you level of dancing ability is, nor particularly care - this is not meant to be a personal response - rather just some observations on the issue generally), reading all of the above types of things and taking appropriate avoidance action is all part of the floorcraft or 'roadsense'.

And it is made especially tricky on a very busy dancefloor. Even more so one with a high percentage of beginners.

There's not two ways about it though - there is very little excuse for repeated collisions during the same track - certainly between the same couples. Inexperienced or not, I don't think's it's unreasonable for people to learn from a (potentiallyore) incident in the past 2 minutes and not take at least some steps to stop a repeat so quickly. Having said that, and particualrly beginner guys, they really are just not aware sometimes. But generally that stage passes fairly quickly.

What I am very intolerant of and think there's very little excuse for is:

• repeated bumps from experienced dancers (v. v. v. v. low incidence around these parts, I'm glad to say - in fact, can't think of any), and
• dancers being bumped by non-dancers crossing / skirting the dancefloor - that really p1sses me off.

And finally, w.r.t. dancing with an injured shoulder....

Firstly can I say that I think you have every right to go dancing with an injured shoulder.

Do I think you should be able to go through a full night's dancing without a single bump to it? Ideally, yes. Of course.

In the real world, given everything I've said above, do I think it's a reasonable expectation? Generally 'no' - unless YOU accept the additional responsibility for yourself (and your partner), understand that you will need a greater 'safety zone' around you and to dance in more space. If it's there. Not everyone (maybe very few other people) on the dancefloor would be aware that you had an injury. If they did, I suspect that most would try to give you a 'wider-berth' so as reduce likelihood of collision, but even then, there may still be the odd one or two.

Hmmmm....this post has run a bit longer than I had in mind.

Summing-Up:

1. I haven't witnessed too much in the way of the 'selfish' dancers you refer to. That said, I've only been dancing 2 years, and pretty much only in Scotland. More than likely your venues are more crowded than ours.
2. IMHO I think the bulk of collisions are due to the combination of busy dancefloors and inexperienced dancers. This can be particualrly bad on nights where a travelling move (such as the Columbian) and everyone gets carried away practising it in the freestyle afterwards. Current situation - it's fact. Need good floorcraft to minise risk. How many collisions are there in the competition dancefloor? I dunno, but suspect not many: less crowded plus more experienced dancers.
3. There is no excuse for repeated collisions - especially between the same parties - inexperienced or not. Take the hint. Learn.
4. I think folks should always apologise after a bump. It's common courtesy.

I'm not claiming any of the above to be correct - it's just my opinion and experience.

And Asif, I hope your shoulder gets better soon and you don't take too many (i.e any!) more bumps on it on the dancefloor.

Ramblings over,


PM

PS: I'm pretty sure Teachers making a point of this from the stage would definitely help to get awareness of floorcraft up, the number of collisions down, and on the etiquette side - the number of apologies to be at least be as high as the number of collisions!

[TheTramp]

I did an experiment several years ago. One evening walking along Oxford Street I simply walked in a straight line, to see whether people would get out of my way.... Less than 50% did... A large proportion of people bumped into me, and several got cross that I was in their way ! (anyone else fancy trying it ?)

Sure. I bet that a larger percentage get out of my way though

[El Salsero Gringo]

So how come, on pretty much any crowded dancefloor, you'll see some people dancing big, taking up pretty much as much space as they want, while others are crushed into the side or corners trying to avoid them?

Is this a troll post, or do you actually believe that all people's floorcraft is much the same?

Chris - I've been thinking about why I don't care to hear people labelled as "don't give a damn" - or "rude" or "selfish" or whatever it is. Let's see if I can explain it in a few lines: To say someone behaves badly on the dance floor "because" they're selfish is the wrong way around. It no more explains their behaviour than to say you can see through air "because" it's transparent. Actually, you judge them to be rude because of what you see on the dance-floor. The behaviour explains your judgement, not vice versa. And the reason you shouldn't label people because they bump into you is because you have no idea how generous or otherwise they are the rest of the time. You've not seen enough of them to know. Someone so engrossed in the dance that they don't notice you can seem the most generous, loving, kind, considerate individual in the world, away from the dancefloor or even, at the same moment, to their dance partner.

Secondly - if you (anyone) want to say something to someone: let's say you do with an attitude of "I'm going to teach this rude person a lesson". But if they don't recognise themselves as "rude" and as needing to be taught a lesson (and probably they won't - who does?) you aren't going to communicate very well.

[Gadget]

Despite the fact that i was dancing at the edge of the dance floor and, on most occasions, not doing anything more than getting in close and doing a blues sway, i STILL got bumped into quite a few times. At one point, i was hardly moving and yet i still got a terrific thump in the back of my injured shoulder from another woman (who, btw, didn't even stop or notice what she had done). What's going on here???

Hmmm.... everyone else was dancing and forming an "undulating mass of constantly moving bodys". And you decide to be like a stone in the middle of it and have everyone else wash around you.

How is dancing like this any different from someone who walks accross the middle of a dance floor?

How is standing at the edge, barely moving, any different from standing on the dance floor and chatting to your mates?

If you are dancing on a dance floor with limited space, then you have to addapt your dancing. It's not about everyone else looking out for you - you have to look out for everyone else. It dosn't matter how aware of space and floorcraft everyone else is - you are responsable for your safety and your partners. If you can't take care of that bit, how can you expect anyone else to?
{edit: especially if your 'style' differs from everyone else arround you}

I am not immune: I normally have one minor collission every night I dance. It's not a fact I am proud of. Most of these are doing simple things and straight forward moves: when doing twisty or exuberant moves, the awareness is stepped up a notch because you know that there is a danger of other dancers falling foul of flailing limbs. It's when I relax and am using 'filler' moves while waiting for inspiration that collisions are more likley to occur.

[David Franklin]

I did an experiment several years ago. One evening walking along Oxford Street I simply walked in a straight line, to see whether people would get out of my way.... Less than 50% did... A large proportion of people bumped into me, and several got cross that I was in their way ! (anyone else fancy trying it ?)

So I think the second part of ChrisA's ( ) quote is the right bit - you either care or you don't.... There are the people who get out of the way and the people who dont...

I remember playing this game as a teenager, and my experiences tallied with ChrisA - if you look like you're not going to get out of the way, then generally people get out of your way instead. Cynically, I expect being male has an effect.

But the relevant point is that people look at you and decide whether you're going to get out of the way before getting out of the way themselves. Being brutal, it's who backs down first. I suspect it's not that different with dancing. I also suspect that a lot of people think a couple who aren't moving much are "the weakest link" and should get out of the way. So someone in Asif's position will get crowded a lot more than someone who looks like he might accidentally decapitate anyone within a 2 mile radius during a manspin.

[Ghost]

But the relevant point is that people look at you and decide whether you're going to get out of the way before getting out of the way themselves. Being brutal, it's who backs down first.

Hence my Biker Jacket experiment.

Couple of thoughts - first Asif, I would strongly recommend considering the following. Find a place with low traffic of non-dancers to dance in, but get 2 or 3 of your mates (with good floorcraft) to dance next to you as a buffer zone. ie anyone trying to get to you will have to successfully crash through them and keep going. That's real determination on their part!

Second - I'll freely admit in the past after having had a night of dancing more and more carefully and still being crashed into, to searching the forum for "inconsiderate dancers" with a cup of hot chocolate. It's very theraputic. And no-one ever really hurt me, just rattled me a bit, so I can understand that having a busted arm makes the feeling a lot more intense. So I hope this thread helps a bit.

Lastly, ultimately it comes down to why you want to know. I wanted to know if the dance floor was just a chaotic randomness of moves, of if there were predictable patterns that I could specifically adapt to. I'm not interested in trying to convince others to learn floorcraft. Some lady stepped on my foot hard in heels tonight. Hurt at the time, but no permanent damage thankfully. Why did it happen - don't know. As I think ESG is saying, you can't really ever know what's going on in someone else's head. So I'll let it go of it again after I've finished typing this. "Be the water not the rock".

Take care,
Christopher

[ChrisA]

Someone so engrossed in the dance that they don't notice you can seem the most generous, loving, kind, considerate individual in the world, away from the dancefloor or even, at the same moment, to their dance partner.

You might just as well argue that if a lady enjoys aerials, it's perfectly all right for a guy to do aerials with her on a crowded dancefloor.

Is not anyone engaged in what they're doing, consistently at the expense of others seeking to engage similarly when resources (in this case floor space) are scarce, being at least inconsiderate, in a society where give and take are valued?

And please don't assume that I base my view of people's consideration or otherwise, just on whether or not I get bumped. If you think I'm that superficial, I have to question the value of continuing with this topic.

[El Salsero Gringo]

You might just as well argue that if a lady enjoys aerials, it's perfectly all right for a guy to do aerials with her on a crowded dancefloor.

I don't think it's OK (or that this thread is about whether it's OK). This thread is about why people bump on the dance floor. And saying it's just "because they're impolite - end of story" is obfuscatory and unhelpful.

And please don't assume that I base my view of people's consideration or otherwise, just on whether or not I get bumped. If you think I'm that superficial, I have to question the value of continuing with this topic.

I don't think you're superficial at all, which is why I took the trouble to explain - carefully - what I meant. It is always, of course, your choice whether to continue with any topic.

[ChrisA]

There is no excuse for repeated collisions - especially between the same parties - inexperienced or not.

Agreed.

Take the hint. Learn.

People don't. Draw the inference. Learn.

[ChrisA]

And saying it's just "because they're impolite - end of story" is daft.

Of course it is. But I don't think anyone is saying that.

Asif's original a-c are three quite separate issues, all of which are real, and all of which are much more interesting than just simple impoliteness.

I'm occasionally guilty of b), not very often, but it happens. And when it does, I try to recognise it. I'm never guilty of c), but I've encountered people who when gently taken to task over the sort of repeated careless bumping in a short space of time that PretzelMeister referred to, clearly didn't give a damn and reacted very aggressively.

Most of the worst offenders, I think, are oblivious rather than malicious or genuinely uncaring - on the basis that most human fallibility is accounted for perfectly well by incompetence, without needing to invoke malice as an explanation when bad things happen.

Lots of beginners are of course, guilty of a), but that's just part of the learning process for those that are sensitive to discovering what needs to be learned, so they are naturally excused.

[spindr]

Floor craft and floor courtesy is a skill. Unfortunately, they are not skills that are often taught.

The more you dance the better you can predict other dancers' movements -- the better you are at leading/following the more chance you have to abort and change a move to something more suitable (for instance stopping ). The better your technique, the less chance of you taking more room than you expected, e.g. travelling a spin, etc.

SpinDr

P.S. Obligatory plug for more ideas re: floor craft and floor courtesy: http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/lat...oor_craft.html

[Magic Hans]

as a follower or lead

As a follower I am not really aware of my surroundings, I have to rely on my lead to 'look after me' but at the same time respond as soon as he signals me to stop or move.

As a lead, I am not a very experienced lead, so on a crowded floor, if I can't find a space I stick to simple moves.

Generally speaking, I'd agree with this (your first impression) to a large degree.

For me, it's a matter of trust and responsibilities. I would expect a partner who trusts me more, to trust where I am going to lead her, and my choice of moves, and generally allow herself to 'let go' more [far nicer dance!]. Someone who hasn't good cause to trust me to any great degree, will exercise more caution, and (for her own safety) take more care of herself

..... however .....

I do rely, to a degree, on my partner taking full responsibility for her own balance. If I do have to abort a move, or forcibly pull my partner out of danger, I'd like a little help please!!!!, and not to have to move an entire body that's leaning back on the end of my arm!!!


Having said all that .... I will still hold up my hand and plead guilty to sometimes losing myself so much in a dance that I have failed to protect my partner from collision.

Incidentally, I did notice in Australia that the men would sometimes anticipate a collision and proffer a fending (non-agressive) hand (usually onto a back).

That seemed to work quite well .... although I can imagine it possibly being misinterpreted!

!an

[Chef]

Just an observation.

Having had experience of dancing out in the sticks (where I live) and in London venues (which are much more crowded), it seems that floorcraft is learned much more slowly when there is much less crowding.

The worst floorcraft seems to be in those places where there is a vast amount of space relative to the number of people on the floor. There have been many times when I have looked in bafflement at the vast open spaces of dance floor nearby as another couple squeezes themselves between me and the adjacent couple rather than walking the feew more metres to the empty dance floor. People only seem to want to learn floorcraft when there is a pressing reason for them to do so.

Most people in most places seem to do OK but a small number of careless dancers make life unpleasant for a disproportionate number of other dancers.

Some of these people haven't had a reason to learn floorcraft before because others have simply gotten out of their way if and when they see them coming. I provide them with a reason to learn by not moving out of their way. My days of being herded around a dance floor are over.

It is a bit like followers who lead thier partners - the leaders never learn to lead. As long as people keep getting out of the way of the ones that don't learn floorcraft then they will never learn floorcraft.

I do agree with Magic Hans above - a hand or arm to fend off a collision is often very useful and gets the message across that more care to those around you is needed.

[bigdjiver]

More than once I have looked at a busy freestyle floor as if I was seeing it for the first time and wondered "How do they do that?". It seems impossible that there are not dozens of people needing first-aid after every dance.

To return to the first post, the human eye is biased towards perceiving movement. It is possible that someone moving more slowly than usual, or even stationary, just is not "seen" as well as someone moving normally or exuberantly.

[Magic Hans]

More than once I have looked at a busy freestyle floor as if I was seeing it for the first time and wondered "How do they do that?". It seems impossible that there are not dozens of people needing first-aid after every dance.

To return to the first post, the human eye is biased towards perceiving movement. It is possible that someone moving more slowly than usual, or even stationary, just is not "seen" as well as someone moving normally or exuberantly.

.... agreed, and the counter-argument, particularly in the case of dancers with a good few hundred hours dance under their belt, is that they can learn to anticipate potential collision situations, in the same manner (Using Pretzelmeister's analogy) that a good, experienced and concentrating car driver can anticipate potential collisions by some apparent 'sixth' sense.

As well as human peripheral vision being especially adept at detecting motion, the human brain is especially adapt at pattern recognition [of many types].

[Ghost]

More than once I have looked at a busy freestyle floor as if I was seeing it for the first time and wondered "How do they do that?". It seems impossible that there are not dozens of people needing first-aid after every dance.

Did anyone crash into the pillar in the centre of the dance floor at the last Greenwich Winter Black and White Ball? Dancers seem quite capable of avoiding things like the stage, tables, chairs etc. Really, what's the difference between a table at the edge of a dance floor and Asif doing small stationary moves at the edge of the dance floor? Oh yeah, it hurts to crash into a table. Bumping the guy in the plaster cast however, not so much.

Christopher

[El Salsero Gringo]

Did anyone crash into the pillar in the centre of the dance floor at the last Greenwich Winter Black and White Ball? Dancers seem quite capable of avoiding things like the stage, tables, chairs etc. Really, what's the difference between a table at the edge of a dance floor and Asif doing small stationary moves at the edge of the dance floor? Oh yeah, it hurts to crash into a table. Bumping the guy in the plaster cast however, not so much.

Christopher

Dancing near a pillar is *really* difficult; you have to keep much further away from it than you would from another dancing couple. So yes, I think it is harder to avoid stationary objects.