Holding and relaxing the frame

[Sparkles]

People have, in the past, asked me for advice on their frame when dancing (I think this is because I did a lot of ballroom where frame is quite important ).
I try and explain to them about holding their frame, but not locking it, keeping their elbows infront of them, holding their own arms up etc. (though, as always, I bow to DavidB's superior knowledge on this )

I have, however, recently discovered that one of the things that's very hard to explain is that these rules are not necessarily true all the time. Sometimes they (the rules, not your arms) need to be bent or broken completely for moves to work.

So, I was wondering if we could put together an easy-to-understand explanation of the frame, when to hold it, when not to, how to know how much resistance your partner wants and how to use your frame as a tool to make your dancing even better!...

[elle]

A rough guide to this would be handy for me, as I've never done dancing before. I must look like a sack of potatoes being dragged across the dancefloor!

[Sparkles]

OK, everyone seems to have read this, but no-one wants to post anything! *humph*.

I'll start:
One of the times that I find it awkward to hold the frame rigid is when you're doing a move similar to a whip (if any of you have done ballroom jive you'll know what I'm talking about). It's where the follower comes in from an open position to closed ballroom hold, we both turn around each other for two beats and then the follower is sent away again.
IMO All moves that have this kind of elasticity cannot flow or be lead successfully with a static frame. If anyone has seen Nigel teach these type of moves... that's what I mean.
On the other hand, if you are leading the same move into pivot turns (also known as ballroom spins, or 'the penguin' if you're name's Msfab ) then it is, IMO, very important to hold your frame firm to provide mutual support and balance, create shape and indicate the move's start and end point (as you could go around as many or as few times as you like - a lowering of the frame signals the end of the turns).

OK, so who else has tips to share?

[Tessalicious]

I don't claim to be anywhere near as knowledgeable about this as the lovely Miss S, but IME and from Cat Wiles' West Coast teaching, my general rule for my own frame is that, as long as you are facing your partner, you should keep your frame by 'engaging' both upper arm muscles (bicep and tricep) so that you can lead/be led easily, responsively and sensitively in either direction.

This still applies going into and coming out of a turn, but crucially doesn't include those moves which involve going back-to-back, or any move including hammerlock/half-nelson or cleaver arm positions for either partner - in these cases, particularly for the follower, frame has to be relaxed or bits will get dislocated!

When I dance with early intermediate ladies in classes with pretzels or related moves, I used to try to explain this to them, but the idea that you have to have tension sometimes and be relaxed other times, and that you have to react fast to be able to be doing the right thing, usually gets them all confused. So I usually just let them get on with it and minimise the damage myself, and tell them what's going wrong if they ask .

I'm sure I've had other thoughts on this, which I'll add later if I remember, unless someone beats me to it.

[LMC]

I read your first post several times over the last day or so! Trying to articulate thoughts is tricky.

I can confirm Sparkles' comments on "loosening" the frame for the pivot turns (thanks for the feedback and advice Sparkles ). A follower will really need to reduce the tension in their arms for pretzels and half-nelsons too - not lose it altogether, but 'relax' so that your arms can be wound round.

"Holding your own arm up" is something that I've been giving some thought to over the last few days. The leader needs to feel some weight, and I'm not always very good at the elbow-elbow connection in ballroom hold, and I suspect this is because my frame is too static. Interestingly, in tango, the arm that's resting on the lead's arm is supposed to be *totally* relaxed - the teacher had us literally letting our arm "hang" over the leader's and the hand just goes on the shoulder for a style point. (TTD accomplished)

One thing I find difficult is if the lead's arm is too relaxed in that ballroom hold - if the guy's hand is too low down my back and his elbow is down by my waist or even hip, then trying to keep an elbow to elbow connection is almost impossible. Perhaps that will come with practice? (or do I ask the leader for more frame?)

I think two of the most useful exercises for frame, which are also suitable for beginners, are the simple back and forwards lead and follow in the regular MJ L-R handhold (in simple terms, "hand stays the same distance from the body/follow the hand") and the otherwise awful in and out (again, in very simplistic terms, the elbows stay more or less in the same place, as "springs" for the weight changes - useful for leaders AND followers). Trouble is, both these are far easier to demonstrate than explain in writing!

I'm still not sure I've articulated this at all well, but have hopefully helped get the ball rolling for discussion.

EDIT: cross-post with Tessalicious, looks like we agree on pretzels etc

[Andybroom]

OK, everyone seems to have read this, but no-one wants to post anything! *humph*.

I'll start:

IMO All moves that have this kind of elasticity cannot flow or be lead successfully with a static frame. If anyone has seen Nigel teach these type of moves... that's what I mean.

Yes, but that happens even in ballroom latin. It's called extending the frame.

In ballroom latin (as I was taught, anyway) you do as much of the move as you can with a fixed frame and then you take it that bit further by "extending the frame" - which essentially means straightening the arm (or arms, depending on whether it's a two handed or single handed move). You can either snap the arms out at the end to give the appearance of a sudden acceleration or you can transition from body movement through a fixed frame into an extending frame slowly to give a more continuous appearance.

The choice would depend on the music and on the particular move being danced.

I'd guess the smooth transition would be generally more appropriate in modern jive.

The lead/follow in this comes from the fact that the follower feels herself being moved further than she can go within a fixed frame and starts extending herself until she feels the lead stop.

Andy

[tsh]

Interesting.... I felt that the frame required for a whip and a travelling first move sort of thing were very similar. Both require a degree of compression in the hold and most significantly rely on contact between the man's right hand, and the ladies shoulder. The only important thing here should be that the lady maintains a degree of weight into the mand hand. Unless it's the ladies right hand you're talking about...

The right hand is more complex, because sometimes it needs to move freely (primarily up and down, unless it's being placed behind your back), and sometimes it needs to be elastic. The most important thing, which is almost never taught in MJ, is to aim to keep the elbow slightly in front of the waist. If the elbow is taken forward, you can step forward to follow it. If the elbow is pushed back, step back, or turn (e.g. facing to side-by side in a first move).

Really important, if your arm is used to stop your rotation, KEEP THE ARM FORWARD OF YOUR SHOULDERS. Really, any time the arm is straight this probably applies. This ought to be mandatory to teach when teaching a ceroc spin - it's a safety issue.

In an open hold, don't support the weight of your hand. Relax it, and the weight is sufficient to allow an open hand-hold to give a lead.

If you step in, movement starts with a pull, you travel, and you stop when you feel a push. If the push continues, you travel back again. If it stops, you stay forward.

Wherever there is contact from the lead, you need to apply some force to balance this contact. If the pressure changes, you need to move as if to maintain the original force, and carry on moving untill there is another lead to change your movement.

None of this really relates to a rigid 'formal' balroom hold - but I have no real balroom experience, so I might be inventing a distinction.

OK - now pick holes in that...

Sean

[Andybroom]

The leader needs to feel some weight,

I don't agree with that. The follower should, in my view (perhaps that should be by my preference) always take her own weight. Even the "draped arm" look some Tango teachers/dancers use should not result in the leader feeling more than the weight of the relaxed arm - the follower should not actually be leaning on him - the leaning appearance of this type of hold comes from the follower carrying her weigh as far forward as she can whilst still retaining the ability to balance and hence hold her own weight. In Tango the lead often does the same.

As the follow what you should be trying to do is to sense the lead's body movements through whatever points of contact you actually have with him and move your body in response.

One thing I find difficult is if the lead's arm is too relaxed in that ballroom hold - if the guy's hand is too low down my back and his elbow is down by my waist or even hip, then trying to keep an elbow to elbow connection is almost impossible. Perhaps that will come with practice? (or do I ask the leader for more frame?)

The classic ballroom hold - ie Lead's right hand somewhere around a normal bra-strap fastener position - between the shoulder blades - with his elbow held up and the follower's hand/arm resting on top gives the most secure and easiest leading position. This is because it's on the follower's axis and on a fairly bony part of the back so she feels any movement most easily in that position.

In most other locations (lower on the back, hip, etc) the sensation is going to be less and hence you find it more difficult to follow. However a lead who is leading from a different position can (if he knows how to) adapt his leading technique to make it happen from that position too. Outside of ballroom latin the "high on the back position" can look and feel to formal for some of the moves so I don't use it all the time. But low back or hip position leads need to be slightly bigger and very positive otherwise it won't happen.

In practice I use all three positions when dancing, placing my right hand wherever seems most appropriate to what I'm doing at the time.

So, from your point of view it's probably as much the leaders who are using low back/hip leads not doing them well enough as it is your not being able to read them.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "elbow to elbow cinnection" though - the elbows are not normally a principal place of connection and I'm wondering whether you've not quite followed what a teacher has said to you?

I think two of the most useful exercises for frame, which are also suitable for beginners, are the simple back and forwards lead and follow in the regular MJ L-R handhold (in simple terms, "hand stays the same distance from the body/follow the hand") and the otherwise awful in and out (again, in very simplistic terms, the elbows stay more or less in the same place, as "springs" for the weight changes - useful for leaders AND followers). Trouble is, both these are far easier to demonstrate than explain in writing!

Absolutely. Exercises like this are rarely don in MJ classes (if ever) but are the sort of thing that needs to happen.

Andy

[tsh]

I think two of the most useful exercises for frame, which are also suitable for beginners, are the simple back and forwards lead and follow in the regular MJ L-R handhold (in simple terms, "hand stays the same distance from the body/follow the hand") and the otherwise awful in and out (again, in very simplistic terms, the elbows stay more or less in the same place, as "springs" for the weight changes - useful for leaders AND followers). Trouble is, both these are far easier to demonstrate than explain in writing!

I'm not intentionally replying to all your posts - however...

The in and out had a significant disadvantage in terms of practice, being that the weight transfer is too simple. Frequently, and partly a result of the direction to bring the hands out and round on coming in, there is no connection at the stepped in point. The follower steps in to a point she is comfortable with, and stops. There is no spring or compression on the 'in', and I haven't managed to find a successfull way to communicate this. Other moves seem to work better for me as ways of justifying something I've said about frame.

Sean

[Andybroom]

I don't claim to be anywhere near as knowledgeable about this as the lovely Miss S, but IME and from Cat Wiles' West Coast teaching, my general rule for my own frame is that, as long as you are facing your partner, you should keep your frame by 'engaging' both upper arm muscles (bicep and tricep) so that you can lead/be led easily, responsively and sensitively in either direction.

That may well be strictly/medically correct in terms of the muscles involved but I don't really like people using terms like "engaging muscles" or "tension" because many (beginning especially) followers mis-interpret it. Overly tensed arm muscles result in so-called "heavy" following - a very, very common follower fault. More so than the opposite "Spaghetti Arms" - I suspect because people talk about keeping tension in the arms to avoid Spaghetti Arms.

Personally I prefer to talk about keeping the arms bent in an L shape and not letting the elbows move from that position - moving the shoulder in response to pressure on the arm from the lead and letting the foot follow the shoulder when it feels that it should naturally.

Of course you probably actually do that by doing what you suggest with the biceps/triceps, but it gives a less "wrestling" approach!

Andy

[LMC]

I don't agree with that. The follower should, in my view (perhaps that should be by my preference) always take her own weight. Even the "draped arm" look some Tango teachers/dancers use should not result in the leader feeling more than the weight of the relaxed arm - the follower should not actually be leaning on him - the leaning appearance of this type of hold comes from the follower carrying her weigh as far forward as she can whilst still retaining the ability to balance and hence hold her own weight. In Tango the lead often does the same.

Agree, I meant the weight of the arm but it was a bit of a vague and useless description on my part, thanks for clarifying

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "elbow to elbow cinnection" though - the elbows are not normally a principal place of connection and I'm wondering whether you've not quite followed what a teacher has said to you?

No, I've never felt nor would I expect an elbow-elbow connection, just not sure how else to describe that "side" of the ballroom hold (leader's R, follower's L, elbows often in contact if not connected!) - what is the correct term please?

in & out stuff

I thought the same, until just yesterday when I had a bit of a Road to Damascus moment. The two main problems with the in & out "not working" in the way intended are
1) distance - as you pointed out, the follower only comes in as close as she is comfortable with. As a follower or a leader I have no difficulty telling beginners that they need to be in closer when necessary (nicely of course - an exaggerated demo of having to bend right forward and dance at arm's length usually raises a smile).
2) this is the bit that made me finally "get it" last night - get those elbows UP and OUT - the arms need to be at or close to a 90 deg angle from the body (with adjustments for leader/follower height difference as required). This is a deliberately exaggerated "position" so that the beginner can get the principles - and if their elbows are going back on the out, or 'collapsing' on the in, then get them to watch your elbows so they can see what's happening. I'm a convert after this exercise actually worked for me a couple of times last night (thanks to Adam for being insistent on getting those elbows out )

Re: muscles comments by Andybroom & Tessalicious - I heard once (possibly from DavidB?) that you're looking for the same tension in your arms as you would use to hold a pint (and it seems to work!)

[Ghost]

how to use your frame as a tool to make your dancing even better!...

Different people move from different parts of their bodies. It's the initial impulse I'm talking about. Most martial artists for example, move from their centre of gravity. However I've danced with people who move from their chest, head, calves etc. An important aspect of the frame is that it allows you a direct connection through their body to this place. However it means that you have to make sublte adjustments to the frame and how you lead depending upon where the other person is moving from.

To take this a step further, the lead will also be moving from a specific part. The frame allows the lead to connect this in. So say I move from my hips and I'm leading someone who moves from their chest. Imagine a line of energy flowing from my hips up my body along my arms through their arms and into their chest. I direct my lead through this connection.

I can also deliberately chose to change where I am moving from, so in this example I may start dancing from my chest to match her. The line of energy now flows from my chest, through my arms to her chest. (There's also a second connection in this case directly from my chest to her chest - it's easier to understand if you think about doing mambo walks - yes, you're leading with your arms, but you're also leading with your body. If you let go and both put your hands down, with a good conection, you can still lead mambo walks)

I may also change the focal point of this connection for a specific reason. Say I'm dancing from my hips connected to someone dancing from their chest and I realise someone in her blind-spot is about to crash into her, then I extend the connection beyond her chest through her spine, hips, knees and into her feet to ground her dead and "stop on a dime", whilst I similarly ground out my motion. The end result would be a line flowing from the ground up my legs, spine, through my arms, through her arms, down her spine, legs into the floor.

Personally I find envisaging a glowing stream of light helps with the above, but it's really something you have to play around with in practice.

Hope that helps,

Christopher

[Andybroom]

Agree, I meant the weight of the arm but it was a bit of a vague and useless description on my part, thanks for clarifying

OK, no problem

No, I've never felt nor would I expect an elbow-elbow connection, just not sure how else to describe that "side" of the ballroom hold (leader's R, follower's L, elbows often in contact if not connected!) - what is the correct term please?

I don't think there is a formal name but (if anything) I'd call the man's right/woman's left side the "closed" side and the man's left/woman's right the "open" side if anything.

1) distance - as you pointed out, the follower only comes in as close as she is comfortable with.

If I'm visualising the same exercise as you! - that's not really correct. The follower should keep coming in as long as the leader keeps leading her in - that's one of the points of this kind of exercise. It's the lead's responsibility to move, control during the movement and then stop the follower before she collides with him or (alternatively) move out of the way himself by stepping back or turning (the latter with or without leading the follow into a turn). If she stops herself she is not following. Really she should just trample the guy down if he doesn't control the step. (though that's not really a serious suggestion!)

2) this is the bit that made me finally "get it" last night - get those elbows UP and OUT - the arms need to be at or close to a 90 deg angle from the body

Personally I wouldn't suggest that to a beginner. Taking elbows out can be quite dangerous (an elbow in the face is gonna hurt quite a lot and it'll be in someone they are next to's face who probably won't see it coming). Suggesting to beginners that this is an OK thing to do might well mean they have a very bad habit to unlearn later.

Re: muscles comments by Andybroom & Tessalicious - I heard once (possibly from DavidB?) that you're looking for the same tension in your arms as you would use to hold a pint (and it seems to work!)

You may well be right (though I can think of some who hang in to their pints like grim death - hopefully DavidB isn't one of those ).

One of the problems is that there is no quantitive way of describing muscle power. As a lead I can tell a follower if she is too heavy or spaghetti armed but I can't tell her precisely how much to increase or decrease the tension in her muscles. And, short of private lessons, you can't really tell a whether people have it right or wrong in any teaching situation.

Andy

[Andybroom]

Personally I find envisaging a glowing stream of light helps with the above, but it's really something you have to play around with in practice.

Interesting how you view that. Actually most dance theorists talk about moves eminating from the "centre" and flowing out and around the frame through the connection.

But I'm pretty certain you mean the same thing as they do and the "glowing stream of light" is an interesting simile - I can certainly see what you mean by it.

Andy

[LMC]

I think that was actually someone else's comment, but never mind.

Yep, attributed to tsh.

... Taking elbows out can be quite dangerous (an elbow in the face is gonna hurt quite a lot and it'll be in someone they are next to's face who probably won't see it coming). Suggesting to beginners that this is an OK thing to do might well mean they have a very bad habit to unlearn later.

It helps in the review class (I did say we were deliberately exaggerating!) - but you're right, we need to make it clear that it's for teaching/practice purposes and elbows should be kept in in freestyle - what's obvious to us is not necessarily so to a beginner.

You may well be right (though I can think of some who hang in to their pints like grim death - hopefully DavidB isn't one of those ).

Ah. Back to the drawing board then...

(seriously, it does seem to be a reasonable starting point for most people.)

Every point made seems to raise a whole bunch of other really important things that beginners need to know. Most *do* get covered in review classes or beginner's classes, just maybe not always with the emphasis we would put on them or with the frequency we think they need reminding.

[Ghost]

Interesting how you view that. Actually most dance theorists talk about moves eminating from the "centre" and flowing out and around the frame through the connection.

But I'm pretty certain you mean the same thing as they do and the "glowing stream of light" is an interesting simile - I can certainly see what you mean by it.

Andy

Thanks.

The only exception is that when dancing with someone who isn't 'classically / formally' trained, I've occassionally found that they may not move from their centre and instead move from somewhere else and so I have to compensate accordingly.

Take care,
Christopher

[Donna]

Thanks.

The only exception is that when dancing with someone who isn't 'classically / formally' trained, I've occassionally found that they may not move from their centre and instead move from somewhere else and so I have to compensate accordingly.

Take care,
Christopher

You're absolutely right. If you have a look on the Brendon Cole DVD, he does mention that during close moves you are dancing with each other spines centre and push up and forward. Also, it is important that when holding a frame, that the lady should still be able to hold it if he walks away...in other words she should take her own weight otherwise it makes it extremely difficult for him to lead it.

[BettyB]

Great thread! I can't class myself as a beginner any more but I often feel that I'm not a good follower. Taking notes!

[Andybroom]

Yep, attributed to tsh.

Apologies, my mistake, hadn't realised how this board dealt with quotes within quotes. Was actually correcting my mistake at the time you replied! - The marvels of modern communications, eh!

(seriously, it does seem to be a reasonable starting point for most people.)

Yeah, joking aside I see your point.

Every point made seems to raise a whole bunch of other really important things that beginners need to know. Most *do* get covered in review classes or beginner's classes, just maybe not always with the emphasis we would put on them or with the frequency we think they need reminding.

It's always a difficult one. Especially as it has to be tempered with the practical need to get beginners dancing something - no matter how badly - fairly quickly to stop them thinking they'll never master it and give up.

Andy

[Andybroom]

Also, it is important that when holding a frame, that the lady should still be able to hold it if he walks away...in other words she should take her own weight otherwise it makes it extremely difficult for him to lead it.

Absolutely.

Andy