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Thread: Holding and relaxing the frame

  1. #21
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Holding and relaxing the frame

    There are four points of contact in a "swing/latin" closed dance frame:
    1). leader's left-to-follower's right handhold.
    2). leader's right handhold below/"inside" the followers shoulder blade -- aiming for a possible bra strap.
    3). follower's hand *on* the man's shoulder (or bicep if there's a height difference) -- not behind his back, cause that'll cause the follower to block themselves when spun out of hold.
    4). a "frictional" contact near the elbows -- you could think of this as the lady's elbow drooping slightly over the man's arm -- at the moment, I'm tending to use the vague bicep contour against the lady's outside left of her left forearm (but I often have a height difference with my partners )

    In a ballroom hold you'd probably add a fifth contact at the diaphram.
    In Lindy probably be higher up on the shoulder blade.
    In AT / Blues / Balboa the man can take a more diagonal arm right across the lady's back -- to get a "whole arm lead", etc., etc.
    In Modern Jive... ...all bets are off

    At the risk of stating the obvious the leader's dance frame can simply be thought of as a limit to the follower's dance position, i.e. where the leader "allows" the follower to be able to move/dance -- this is pretty obvious in a closed hold, but also applies in single handed postions (just allows the follower to rotate, by adding an extra degree of freedom ).

    So, the reason for the leader modifying their dance frame is simply to allow the follower to dance particular moves. E.g. softening the right-hand-to-shoulder connection to allow the lady to rotate, e.g. ochos in hold. Perhaps rotating the dance frame slightly and adding "torsion" to allow (and encourage) the follower to circle about the leader in hold. Or keeping the dance frame "fixed" when the leader circles about the follower (who remains on a fixed spot). Or modifying the dance frame to allow the follower to move away slightly (and come back) during a WCS whip, etc. You might even think of the change of dance frame as a lead in itself? Even the preparation for changing the dance frame could be a lead -- if the guy tenses the left bicep/tricep (next to the lady's left arm) that's a hint in itself of an impending movement.

    SpinDr

  2. #22
    Registered User gembar's Avatar
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    Re: Holding and relaxing the frame

    Here's some musings on what (I think) I do, and things that have helped me...

    I engage my frame by pulling my shoulders back slightly. I don't know if this actually does anything or if it just makes me feel ready, but I've heard a couple of good teachers mention it.

    I contact my partner's hand by pressing very gently against it. There's no (noticable) tensing of muscles, so the arms feel totally relaxed. Here's an exercise I've been playing with while thinking about this (it'd be like the martial arts "sticky hands" exercise if you had a partner): try touching your hands together without any pressure and waving them around with one hand "leading". It's difficult to keep the hands in constant contact. Now try applying a bit of pressure - there's no problem keeping contact and you still move freely. Now try pressing quite hard - the motion becomes sluggish because your arms aren't relaxed.
    If your partner's hand changes direction too quickly you can't keep contact, but that might be intentional (e.g. to get you into a free spin).

    A genuine tip I got from a (fab) teacher is to keep as much of the hands in contact as possible (i.e. fingers completely overlapping). It does make the connection feel more secure.

    A simple tip I liked as a beginner was "Keep your hand in front of your belly button". Not literally, perhaps, (and obviously not all of the time) but I found it a good picture to keep in mind to get my body following my hand. Now I tend to keep a forklift-truck sort of pose, so the lead can manoeuvre me around with whichever arm he likes, or both.

    A good leader will gradually (but quite quickly) build up tension prior to a move. This is kind of like falling against a wall and bringing yourself to a stop with your arms - you gradually build up tension to stop yourself. Your elbows naturally move a bit, but always stay in front of you - I have a similar sort of flexibility in my frame. There's a point at which it feels natural to come to a stop - you can go further, but it feels like a press-up because you've got too much tension (akin to resisting a lead too much), and you can stop yourself sooner, but with a jolt because you're too rigid. I feel a similar natural "tension threshold" in the lead, above which I start moving (or stop, or whatever) because it would involve effort not to.

    If you're relaxed enough I don't think you should need to think about when to break your frame (if you've got a good leader!). As an example, when you turn your hand to check your watch your elbow naturally goes out to the side. It's a similar movement when a guy turns your hand to break your frame for a half-nelson - if you're not fighting it, you should do it automatically. Otherwise, just break your frame as soon as it becomes at all uncomfortable not to!

  3. #23
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    Re: Holding and relaxing the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by gembar
    I engage my frame by pulling my shoulders back slightly. I don't know if this actually does anything or if it just makes me feel ready, but I've heard a couple of good teachers mention it.
    If you mean by that you are leaning back in any way, that's wrong. If you mean you are straightening your back (it should be straight) then that's what you should be doing. You should keep your spine straight.


    A genuine tip I got from a (fab) teacher is to keep as much of the hands in contact as possible (i.e. fingers completely overlapping). It does make the connection feel more secure.
    Yeesss, ummm, maybe. There are a variety of hand holds that can be used to lead (and hence follow) different moves. I'd have to demonstrate, really, (and have you demonstrate in return) but I'd hesitate to give that as advice to a beginner myself (however fab you think the teacher who told you that is).


    A simple tip I liked as a beginner was "Keep your hand in front of your belly button". Not literally, perhaps, (and obviously not all of the time)
    It is a good literal tip for a beginning follower. In reality (for more advanced followers) you have to make sure that your hand is in that kind of position at the point in the music where the lead would need to take it if he needs to. Otherwise you should really be looking at some styling to do with it rather than just flapping it around in front of you.

    Now I tend to keep a forklift-truck sort of pose, so the lead can manoeuvre me around with whichever arm he likes, or both.
    Methinks you could do with a styling workshop from someone. You should be using your free arm as part of the dance, except (as above) at the moment the lead might want to take it.

    A good leader will gradually (but quite quickly) build up tension prior to a move. This is kind of like falling against a wall and bringing yourself to a stop with your arms - you gradually build up tension to stop yourself. Your elbows naturally move a bit, but always stay in front of you - I have a similar sort of flexibility in my frame. There's a point at which it feels natural to come to a stop - you can go further, but it feels like a press-up because you've got too much tension (akin to resisting a lead too much), and you can stop yourself sooner, but with a jolt because you're too rigid. I feel a similar natural "tension threshold" in the lead, above which I start moving (or stop, or whatever) because it would involve effort not to.
    Ummm I certainly don't like that way of putting it. Lead is (or should be) continuous. There is no actual point at which tension should be built up - tension (in the form of muscle force) shouldn't be used at all and you should feel a continuous gentle push (or pull) which you (in effect) negate by moving away or towards in response. As the lead changes direction (and you land your foot) you should feel this fall away and come back in the new direction. That's the point at which you feel it's natural to stop, as you put it.

    But you are quite correct in saying that you would need to use effort to stop before the lead stops you - although I don't like the idea of "tension" (it implies locked muscles) both the lead and follow have momentum and, if the follow tries to stop before the leader, she will have to absorb some of the lead's momentum (hopefully the lead realises and stops himself before the follower gets all of it!).

    If you're relaxed enough I don't think you should need to think about when to break your frame (if you've got a good leader!). As an example, when you turn your hand to check your watch your elbow naturally goes out to the side. It's a similar movement when a guy turns your hand to break your frame for a half-nelson - if you're not fighting it, you should do it automatically. Otherwise, just break your frame as soon as it becomes at all uncomfortable not to!
    Absolutely

    Andy

  4. #24
    Registered User gembar's Avatar
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    Re: Holding and relaxing the frame

    Quote Originally Posted by Andybroom
    Methinks you could do with a styling workshop from someone. You should be using your free arm as part of the dance, except (as above) at the moment the lead might want to take it.
    Thanks for quoting me out of context and making me sound like a dancing zombie. Appreciate it.

    Re: shoulders – yes, all I mean is pulling out of my usual slouch!
    Re: tension vs continuous pulling/pushing – it can all be taken the wrong way if you omit the words “VERY GENTLE”.

  5. #25
    Donna
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    Re: Holding and relaxing the frame

    If you mean you are straightening your back (it should be straight) then that's what you should be doing. You should keep your spine straight.
    And if you have trouble to keep your spine straight, I suggest you practice by shoving a brush/mop or a bar or something down the back of your trousers.



    Otherwise you should really be looking at some styling to do with it rather than just flapping it around in front of you.
    Lily B told me once if you don't know what to do with that spare hand make sure you hold it down making a nice shape or place it on your hip.

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