Ceroc Rules

[Lou]

As this topic is fresh in my mind....

I have a pal who is a Taxi Dance in the midlands. She came down to visit late last year to attend one of Sherif's workshops. He'd got Cat & Lee in to teach WCS. She thought it was a fabulous day & decided to arrange something similar in her area, as no one does any WCS there.

She approached her local Ceroc Franchisee, who was originally OK with the idea. However, the Franchisee has obviously had second thoughts, as she's recently written to my pal to say that if she were to run the planned WCS workshop, the Franchisee would arrange that she'd be banned from all local Ceroc venues.

I was shocked.

[Lynn]

She approached her local Ceroc Franchisee, who was originally OK with the idea. However, the Franchisee has obviously had second thoughts, as she's recently written to my pal to say that if she were to run the planned WCS workshop, the Franchisee would arrange that she'd be banned from all local Ceroc venues.

I was shocked.

That's appalling. Talk about how to throw goodwill and customer loyalty away with both hands!

All this banning etc gives the message to me that the venues who apply these rules have no confidence in their own night or their own product. It sounds like the actions of a business in decline desperately trying to hang on to customers. It certainly wouldn't inspire confidence in customers.

[Chef]

Last year a taxi dancer of 7 years standing was sacked and threatened with being banned by the franchise holder because they had asked around their friends at the venue to see if any other them would like to go together to see a stage show called "burn the floor - extreme ballroom". They thought it would be a jolly night out to see a dance show and perhaps they could get a block booking discount. The franchise holder viewed it as advertising an alternaltive event at one of their venues.

I don't know the taxi dancer in question myself but the taxi dancer that told me does.

Blooming heck. What next? Ask a few friends over for a meal one night and you get sacked?

Taxi dancing - high on satisfaction for helping new dancers but is it worth being "owned" to this degree?.

[Andy McGregor]

Last year a taxi dancer of 7 years standing was sacked and threatened with being banned by the franchise holder because they had asked around their friends at the venue to see if any other them would like to go together to see a stage show called "burn the floor - extreme ballroom". They thought it would be a jolly night out to see a dance show and perhaps they could get a block booking discount. The franchise holder viewed it as advertising an alternaltive event at one of their venues.

I don't know the taxi dancer in question myself but the taxi dancer that told me does.

Blooming heck. What next? Ask a few friends over for a meal one night and you get sacked?

Taxi dancing - high on satisfaction for helping new dancers but is it worth being "owned" to this degree?.

I had a very similar experience with Julian Hansford, one of our local organisers - so this behavior is not limited to Ceroc. This was some time before I became a "Commercial Operator" myself.

About 2 years ago there was nowhere local to go dancing on a Friday night in our area. We were travelling up to Hipsters BFF once a month and going to the Friday Freestyle on Portsmouth once a month - but we needed more. So Sue and I organised a Friday night party at the village hall 3 doors away from our home. We didn't charge, we just invited our dancing chums for a fun night of dancing and silly games (RobC and I came 2nd in the bad dancing competition). The following Monday I received an email from Mr Hansford saying that I was now a commercial operator and asking if there was any reason why he shouldn't ban me from his venues I called him in a spirit of freindliness and got a very frosty and suspicious reception. Grudgingly, he didn't ban us but he kept staring at Sue and me when we attended his venues and we felt very uncomfortable. Eventually we decided that we needed to start our own venue just to have somewhere to go locally where we'd get a good reception - of course Mr Hansford banned us immediately

[Barry Shnikov]

I'd like to throw this into the ring.

Who thinks there are more modern jive dancers than there is venue capacity in the UK? What about potential modern jive dancers? And how about if you only consider your locality?

There used to be a Thursday venue in Southampton called BTC which was a) pretty shitty and b) pretty small. The dancefloor was the smallest I've seen in an MJ venue. The owners shut it down so the local guy had to find an alternative - he started up in the drill hall of the local TA. (Sounds 'orrible but it's not too bad.)

He must be getting three times as many people each Thursday now.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'd like to throw this into the ring.

Who thinks there are more modern jive dancers than there is venue capacity in the UK? What about potential modern jive dancers? And how about if you only consider your locality?

There used to be a Thursday venue in Southampton called BTC which was a) pretty shitty and b) pretty small. The dancefloor was the smallest I've seen in an MJ venue. The owners shut it down so the local guy had to find an alternative - he started up in the drill hall of the local TA. (Sounds 'orrible but it's not too bad.)

He must be getting three times as many people each Thursday now.

Most people (not already involved in dance) that I speak to have heard of neither modern jive nor Ceroc. That rather indicates to me that the number of potential modern jive dancers would overflow existing venues easily.

[Andy McGregor]

Most people (not already involved in dance) that I speak to have heard of neither modern jive nor Ceroc. That rather indicates to me that the number of potential modern jive dancers would overflow existing venues easily.

Somebody must be posting for ESG today. He's starting to make sense (and that post about mauve and bold on the Mikey thread was pure genius ) When I go to my local TESCO I often bump into someone from MJ. But, even then, it's only one visit in 4. So there's one MJ dancer for every 4 TESCOs full of shoppers. And have you noticed that it doesn't matter how big a TESCO is, it's always full on a Saturday morning?

[Barry Shnikov]

Somebody must be posting for ESG today. He's starting to make sense (and that post about mauve and bold on the Mikey thread was pure genius ) When I go to my local TESCO I often bump into someone from MJ. But, even then, it's only one visit in 4. So there's one MJ dancer for every 4 TESCOs full of shoppers. And have you noticed that it doesn't matter how big a TESCO is, it's always full on a Saturday morning?

Who the hell goes to Tesco on Saturday mornings?

[David Bailey]

I'd like to throw this into the ring.

Who thinks there are more modern jive dancers than there is venue capacity in the UK?

I don't think so, really - I'm not even sure it's a valid question.

Certainly, there are lots of venues around that can be used for MJ - all you really need is an enclosed space, once you get down to it. Good dance venues, fair enough, these are scarce, especially in and around London. But "venues good enough to run a week-night session" on, loads of them I'm sure.

And the reason I doubt the validity is that if the demand increases, the venues will be found; supply and demand. I doubt we'll run out of places to dance in the forseeable future. It's like weekenders - with enough demand, more venues suddenly become available. That's the market for you - it's like magic, innit?

But then again, I could be wrong - no-one seems to know how many partner dancers there are in the UK now, or 10 years ago. So speculation is pointless without figures to back them up.

So there's one MJ dancer for every 4 TESCOs full of shoppers

Or possibly the others were quick enough to run away when they saw you coming?

[Lynn]

Even looking at this purely from a financial point of view - banning in these cases still does more harm than good. If a person is turning up to your event with fliers for the competition - yes, that makes sense to ban them - but to ban someone for organising a one off non-ceroc but dance related event? If the franchisee was worried they might lose a few customers that week who 'follow' the person to that event - don't they think through the implications of a ban? They are forcing that person to dance elsewhere on a regular basis and anyone who is likely to follow the banned individual will be lost as a regular customer. Or at worst, the banned person will decide to set up a night for somewhere to dance (as Andy did).

It seems to me to be less about good business sense and more about control.

[drathzel]

Even looking at this purely from a financial point of view - banning in these cases still does more harm than good. If a person is turning up to your event with fliers for the competition - yes, that makes sense to ban them - but to ban someone for organising a one off non-ceroc but dance related event? If the franchisee was worried they might lose a few customers that week who 'follow' the person to that event - don't they think through the implications of a ban? They are forcing that person to dance elsewhere on a regular basis and anyone who is likely to follow the banned individual will be lost as a regular customer. Or at worst, the banned person will decide to set up a night for somewhere to dance (as Andy did).

It seems to me to be less about good business sense and more about control.

If the night does not coincide with your night, or pose long term harm to your business, then why not. I know people from my classes go to other things and talk about Ceroc and my classes, through this then adding to my business cuz people want to know what it is, can i really stop them doing it in my venue. Although it does depend on the person and if they have only come along one night to advertise.

I would certainly advertise any charity nights in my area as i think it shows good sportsmanship! (also you can send along a few of your flyers and get some advertising in too )

[Lynn]

If the night does not coincide with your night, or pose long term harm to your business, then why not. I know people from my classes go to other things and talk about Ceroc and my classes, through this then adding to my business cuz people want to know what it is, can i really stop them doing it in my venue. Although it does depend on the person and if they have only come along one night to advertise.

I would certainly advertise any charity nights in my area as i think it shows good sportsmanship! (also you can send along a few of your flyers and get some advertising in too )

Someone coming along one night to advertise is a different thing - agreed that's not very fair.

You have done your research, you know your market and what your customers want and are presenting Ceroc in a very positive way here. You don't need to try to control your customers because you have confidence in your product - and this will attract people to come along. (And I'm not just saying that because its you )

[drathzel]

You have done your research, you know your market and what your customers want and are presenting Ceroc in a very positive way here. You don't need to try to control your customers because you have confidence in your product - and this will attract people to come along. (And I'm not just saying that because its you )

i think you hit the nail on the head there lynn. If you are confident in your product being the best one out there, then why should you worry. I have every confidence in that my night is one of the best there is, and not just cuz of the dancing or the teaching etc but because unlike a lot of classes in this area, we offer a social and safe night out. How many people can say that.

[djtrev]

As far as I am aware up until 2/3 years ago Ceroc Anglia was the only MJ outfit in and around Norwich.Its because of their decision to ban certain people from their venues;for whatever reason,justified or not;that there are now 4 other independants teaching MJ in and around Norwich.

[Andy McGregor]

Who the hell goes to Tesco on Saturday mornings?

Just about everybody if the numbers are anything to go by.

As I've said before, banning people for being in competition is counter-productive. The local MJ market will grow if the local orgnisers help each other. It will shrink if local organisers start scapping over dancers and banning* each other for being in competition

* I do ban people for being pervs though - organiser or not

[Swinging bee]

What b~llocks!

No employer can tell you where and when your can spend you free time or own money.

Dancing is entertainment for teachers as well as everyone else.

So if all the teachers friends are going to a local non ceroc freestyle are you saying that he/she has to stay at home or not go what rubbish.

If this is a local or national policy .......I think its CR@P.

Long live diversity in all walks of life.

Hear hear! I totally agree..

Just who the hell do they think they are! The more I hear about Ceroc's strangle hold over it's employees the more determined I get not to spend my money with them! ..Just how many people feel the same way I wonder and how much do you think Ceroc is the poorer for it?
By the way, are the teachers etc employees in the true sense of the word? Do they pay tax? are they in a pension scheme? do they make national insurance contributions? Or are they in the grey area where all is cash in hand? I dunno has anyone any idea ? Just what constitutes a legal employee whereby there are all the safeguards of the relative legislation?

[Andy McGregor]

Hear hear! I totally agree..

Just who the hell do they think they are! The more I hear about Ceroc's strangle hold over it's employees the more determined I get not to spend my money with them! ..Just how many people feel the same way I wonder and how much do you think Ceroc is the poorer for it?
By the way, are the teachers etc employees in the true sense of the word? Do they pay tax? are they in a pension scheme? do they make national insurance contributions? Or are they in the grey area where all is cash in hand? I dunno has anyone any idea ? Just what constitutes a legal employee whereby there are all the safeguards of the relative legislation?

I'm usually very critical of Ceroc, but, in this case, I find I'm defending them

I don't think this is a national policy. I believe it's individual franchisees taking individual decisions. That those decisions stink is beyond doubt, but I don't think that even Ceroc HQ would advise it's franchisees to behave so badly.

[David Bailey]

HThe more I hear about Ceroc's strangle hold over it's employees the more determined I get not to spend my money with them! ..Just how many people feel the same way I wonder and how much do you think Ceroc is the poorer for it?

As I've said on the "DJ's dancing" thread, this isn't "Ceroc", this is just the behaviour of some individual franchisees - some of whom, frankly, are, well, less-than-good.

It's one of the drawbacks of the franchisee system, sometimes you get people who are just predatory and aren't at all interested in developing dance culture - they just want the money. Of course, it's short-termist; the more dance culture is developed, the more money there is for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, Ceroc the organisation does have quite a few IP-protection rules; but neither is the organisation silly. But some franchisees are silly, and there's not much anyone can do about that.

EDIT: hell, Andy beat me to it, and he said the same thing as me - How weird is that?

By the way, are the teachers etc employees in the true sense of the word? Do they pay tax? are they in a pension scheme? do they make national insurance contributions? Or are they in the grey area where all is cash in hand?

I'm pretty sure all teachers are proper employees, yes, with contracts and liability insurance and proper payments, and all that good stuff - that's one of the key benefits of being a Ceroc teacher, it's all above board.

[Andy McGregor]

EDIT: hell, Andy beat me to it, and he said the same thing as me - How weird is that?

Spooky

[Heather]

And have you noticed that it doesn't matter how big a TESCO is, it's always full on a Saturday morning?

Heather,
xx