Exam / grading system in Ceroc: good or bad idea?

[Paul F]

About a thousand years ago I did my ballroom and latin medals. The exam was a simple format. You danced with your teacher, who backled you like mad using her ample busom, and a stern looking woman watched you over her horn-rimmed glasses. Some time later you found out what level of pass you got with some notes on your report giving you tips for development. Once you'd got your medal you could do the class for the next medal.

Dancing with the teacher !! Thats a bit sneaky isnt it
When I was doing my medal tests I was, at one time, thrown in with a girl who just happened to be getting changed ready for her cabaret practice as my partner hadnt turned up. (he did let her get dressed first).
Not the easiest thing in the world to do.
Then again, i suppose that my teacher being a bloke wouldn't have helped either

[Simon r]

Dancing with the teacher !! Thats a bit sneaky isnt it
When I was doing my medal tests I was, at one time, thrown in with a girl who just happened to be getting changed ready for her cabaret practice as my partner hadnt turned up. (he did let her get dressed first).
Not the easiest thing in the world to do.
Then again, i suppose that my teacher being a bloke wouldn't have helped either

My teacher was a bloke and i took my medals with him as the partner ...

Point... he used to have a cane and on failure of correct posture or hold would quickly whip across knuckles....

[Daisy Chain]

Daisy Chain said that she thought the grading idea was a bad thing because she dances for fun.

This suggests to me that she somehow thinks (and maybe others do too) that those that would support grading in some form don't dance for fun, or that the fun would be reduced in some way if it was introduced.

I dance for fun too. But I don't see how introducing an assessment of some kind for people that want to do Advanced classes would make dancing any less fun.

So I asked the question, probably not very clearly. I'll try again. I am broadly in favour of getting people assessed before they get let loose in Advanced classes.

So does Daisy Chain think I don't dance for fun? Does she think she has more fun than me?

Let me explain. I do other forms of dance and Ceroc is the only one where I have no responsibilities. I just turn up, have a whale of a time, grope lots of gorgeous men and go home with a smile on my face. It's effortless. I know from other areas of my dance life that once I have to study or try, the unmitigated joy diminishes.

I've been Cerocing for 9 years now and find that I learn the most from dancing with the better men (like that lovely man in the mauve shirt with spiky hair on Saturday night - definitely a Ferrari). There was a time in my first year of Ceroc when I would have "taken the exam" but not now (you know what they say about "Old dogs...") I'm happy as I am and Ceroc lets me stay that way. I'll get my coat.

Long live Ceroc

Daisy

(A Lazy Little Flower)

[Gadget]

I dance for fun too. But I don't see how introducing an assessment of some kind for people that want to do Advanced classes would make dancing any less fun.

So you enjoy sitting exams? you find that fun? You enjoy the stress both leading up to the exam and before the results are given? This now becomes a part of dancing. You are now no longer dancing for pure enjoyment; you always have the thought that this could be done better, that was wrong, you would be failed for this, if only your exams were now when you can pull off amazingly smooth moves....

So I asked the question, probably not very clearly. I'll try again. I am broadly in favour of getting people assessed before they get let loose in Advanced classes.

I am in favor of stipulating clearly what prior knowledge is required for a class, but I don't think that anyone (teacher/attendee) needs to waste time or resources in formal assessment; If you approach most teachers with the list of stuff and ask them to dance with a view to finding out if you are up for the course; then they would accept.
I think that teachers of more dangerous stuff should accept more responsability and be prepared to ask pupils to leave their class if they couldn't do it or were not listening and becoming dangerous.
{.. although how much of "couldn't do it" would be due to the teacher's lack of teaching ...:shrug:}

We are also skirting one small point - not only does the criteria have to be agreed on, but everyone assessing the dancers must have a coherant and uniform understanding on what meets the criteria. And then every independant must either accept it or produce a rival format... that is a whole new can of wigglies.

Does she think she has more fun than me?

yes

However it's not fun for people to do classes way beyond their ability;{*1} sometimes it's not safe for them to try{*2}, and it's not fun for those that can cope with the lessons at that level{*3} to have to act as teachers and protectors{*4} for those that can't.

*1 - As long as it's a save enviromnent, it could be great fun to do a class way beyond ablility. A few years ago I did a workshop from David & Lilly on Musicality; way above my ability. I'm still discovering little bits of it floating to the surface now. It was fun.

*2 - If it's not safe for someone, then shouldn't it be the responsability of the teacher to outline the risks and what to do to minimise them? One of these things being checking the ability of the dancer in question (if it really it is that dangerous)

*3 - Can you explain a bit further: Obviously you feel dissapointed that you cannot do what the teachers is doing on stage with your current partner. And you feel that with a different partner you would be able to.
You are an experianced dancer: What technique, theory, style,... could be being taught here that you are missing? {Genuine question}

*4 - With so many rotations, you may only ever have one such partner out of twenty or thirty. Is it that bad? Don't you gain further insight when trying to teach (or approach something in a different way)? Dosn't this partner give you a contrast to compare everyone else with?

[Jive Brummie]

So you enjoy sitting exams? you find that fun? You enjoy the stress both leading up to the exam and before the results are given? This now becomes a part of dancing. You are now no longer dancing for pure enjoyment; you always have the thought that this could be done better, that was wrong, you would be failed for this, if only your exams were now when you can pull off amazingly smooth moves....

I am in favor of stipulating clearly what prior knowledge is required for a class, but I don't think that anyone (teacher/attendee) needs to waste time or resources in formal assessment; If you approach most teachers with the list of stuff and ask them to dance with a view to finding out if you are up for the course; then they would accept.
I think that teachers of more dangerous stuff should accept more responsability and be prepared to ask pupils to leave their class if they couldn't do it or were not listening and becoming dangerous.
{.. although how much of "couldn't do it" would be due to the teacher's lack of teaching ...:shrug:}

We are also skirting one small point - not only does the criteria have to be agreed on, but everyone assessing the dancers must have a coherant and uniform understanding on what meets the criteria. And then every independant must either accept it or produce a rival format... that is a whole new can of wigglies.

yes


*1 - As long as it's a save enviromnent, it could be great fun to do a class way beyond ablility. A few years ago I did a workshop from David & Lilly on Musicality; way above my ability. I'm still discovering little bits of it floating to the surface now. It was fun.

*2 - If it's not safe for someone, then shouldn't it be the responsability of the teacher to outline the risks and what to do to minimise them? One of these things being checking the ability of the dancer in question (if it really it is that dangerous)

*3 - Can you explain a bit further: Obviously you feel dissapointed that you cannot do what the teachers is doing on stage with your current partner. And you feel that with a different partner you would be able to.
You are an experianced dancer: What technique, theory, style,... could be being taught here that you are missing? {Genuine question}

*4 - With so many rotations, you may only ever have one such partner out of twenty or thirty. Is it that bad? Don't you gain further insight when trying to teach (or approach something in a different way)? Dosn't this partner give you a contrast to compare everyone else with?

How exactly could a teacher check the ability of an individual prior to an event such as the BFG. So many people came to that event from different parts of the uk that surely you wouldn't expect the teacher to dance with them all before the class and then remember them all as they walk through the door giving them the nod or the look of distain as they turn around head down in shame!

If however they had previously been assessed then there would not have been any problem. In they come, flash the 'card' and away they go. Then the only responsibility would have been with their 'own-class'-teacher' to not have been incompetent and awarded them a 'card' when they didn't deserve it? If there was a grading system that was standardised throughout Ceroc uk, everyone would know exactly where to go and get the most out of the workshops or class they attend providing even better value for money.

Sure go to a class that's above your ability if you want but to me the only winner there would be the franchisee as he/she counts your cash.

Cha-Ching!

j.

[ChrisA]

I just turn up, have a whale of a time, grope lots of gorgeous men and go home with a smile on my face. It's effortless. I know from other areas of my dance life that once I have to study or try, the unmitigated joy diminishes.

Please point to anything I've said that suggests that there is anything about this that isn't perfectly fine.

The only thing I've suggested is that for true advanced classes, it would be beneficial if there was some form of assessment to ensure that people for whom it would be way too difficult didn't take part.

[ChrisA]

you always have the thought that this could be done better

You think you need exams for this to be the case?

[ChrisA]

*3 - Can you explain a bit further: Obviously you feel dissapointed that you cannot do what the teachers is doing on stage with your current partner. And you feel that with a different partner you would be able to.
You are an experianced dancer: What technique, theory, style,... could be being taught here that you are missing? {Genuine question}

I've said elsewhere that there have been times where I've done a difficult class with someone that could do it, and ended up much better able to lead the same thing with people that couldn't really get it in the class. So by doing it with those that can, I've been more of a help to those that struggled with it.

I've also done classes of about the same level of difficulty, where because so many of my partners couldn't get the important points, I ended up not getting it properly either. And come the freestyle, I couldn't provide the help that I would normally want to be able to.

So I've come to the conclusion that although superficially it seems "nice" to allow anyone into the really hard classes, it is not a good idea. Since not only do the people that aren't ready for it, not get it, sometimes, the people that could help them if they did get get it, don't get it either.

Obviously there is the selfish aspect - it's terribly frustrating being prevented from "getting it" - but it's not only that. Those that most need the help can be hindered, and discouraged, by letting them attempt things way beyond their level as well.

[Lynn]

I am in favor of stipulating clearly what prior knowledge is required for a class, but I don't think that anyone (teacher/attendee) needs to waste time or resources in formal assessment; If you approach most teachers with the list of stuff and ask them to dance with a view to finding out if you are up for the course; then they would accept.

Of course any teacher would agree to an informal assessment if asked prior to someone deciding to do a workshop. Some people already do this - I know I would if it was appropriate (I have asked teachers about the level of a workshop before attending at weekenders).

The problem is with those people who don't do this - who just turn up at an 'advanced' workshop when they haven't even mastered the basics. They won't ask and how is the teacher supposed to know their level in advance? And as for asking someone to leave, after they have paid for the workshop and are part way through it - surely that would be more embarrassing and humiliating than any 'card' system could ever be?

[Lynn]

I just turn up, have a whale of a time, grope lots of gorgeous men and go home with a smile on my face. It's effortless.

Absolutely, which is why this was being suggested as an optional addition for the benefit of those who do want to challenge and stretch themselves to another level - but not something that would be required, or even expected, of everyone.

I know from other areas of my dance life that once I have to study or try, the unmitigated joy diminishes.

I enjoy studying, I like the challenge of stretching myself to reach higher levels. It adds to my enjoyment. One of the things I love about dance is that there is always more to learn and there will always be more to learn. And some form of assessment aids learning - the card system is being suggested as one possible form of assessment. But I would definitely only want to see it as optional, so that those who just want MJ to be fun with no stress or challenge, can have that too.

[Yliander]

I still disagree with formal division for regular beginner/intermediate followed by freestyle nights. IMO, it would be far better to encourage a culture where it is the norm for beginners to consult with taxi dancers before moving up - and if they don't, or are evidently trying intermediate too soon, they can be tactfully asked to consult a teacher/experienced taxi about whatever is holding them back - for their own benefit rather than as a test.

this so much harder to do than it sounds - how to you ask them? who asks them? how do you not do it publicly?

[Daisy Chain]

Please point to anything I've said that suggests that there is anything about this that isn't perfectly fine.

Ooopsy, have I grabbed the wrong end of your stick?

Anyway, feel free to assess / examine willing volunteers. Just don't do me - I might find out that I am not A Goddess after all. Ahem...

Daisy

(A Deluded Little Flower)

[David Bailey]

you wouldn't expect the teacher to dance with them all before the class and then remember them all as they walk through the door giving them the nod or the look of distain as they turn around head down in shame!

Nice image

Ooopsy, have I grabbed the wrong end of your stick?

Possibly.

The scheme would be completely voluntary, no-one would ever have to do it to do a freestyle or a regular class, so if you only do those, in theory it shoud have no impact - fun should still be officially available.

But if you want to do a particular type of "technique / advanced" (pick your label) class or workshop, you'd need to be able to prove that you wouldn't slow that class or workshop down. That's it really.

[Paul F]

The scheme would be completely voluntary, no-one would ever have to do it to do a freestyle or a regular class, so if you only do those, in theory it shoud have no impact - fun should still be officially available.

But if you want to do a particular type of "technique / advanced" (pick your label) class or workshop, you'd need to be able to prove that you wouldn't slow that class or workshop down. That's it really.

That sounds good to me.

As a past teacher of MJ and a current teacher of dance technique I would love to take classes in general dance principles and maybe even to relate that to MJ. One of the reasons I avoid looking at that further is simply because I could not guarantee the level of participants in my class.

While teaching for Ceroc I taught tons of workshops which were attended by people who simply were not ready for that level. No matter how many times I stood on stage and pointed out the recommended level for attendees I always got people who were just not ready.
This slowed down everyone in the workshops.

I suppose it may also have an impact on the safety of participants as well, depending on what is being taught. Thats not a nice thought though.

As for the vetting part - the dangerous part! - most teachers should have an idea of the level of the people in their class. Could it just be as informal as a gentle word or are exams still the way to go?
I suppose exams could potentially then produce a national 'pass' type of thing.

[TheTramp]

While teaching for Ceroc I taught tons of workshops which were attended by people who simply were not ready for that level. No matter how many times I stood on stage and pointed out the recommended level for attendees I always got people who were just not ready.
This slowed down everyone in the workshops.

Question.

Since there are always going to be a mixed ability at workshops, there will always be a 'slowest' couple. How do you define where the 'acceptably' slow level is?

[Paul F]

Question.

Since there are always going to be a mixed ability at workshops, there will always be a 'slowest' couple. How do you define where the 'acceptably' slow level is?

Good question. Thats one of the complexities which led to me not following up the opportunity in starting a class.
I get the feeling it would have to be a case of making it as effective as possible without ever thinking it would be ideal.

Having, guiltily, not read through all of this thread I wonder what the curriculum is with which the card system is used.

[David Bailey]

Having, guiltily, not read through all of this thread I wonder what the curriculum is with which the card system is used.

You should feel more guilty about that clause construction.

But to answer your question, I was originally talking about the Australian "Blue card" system, relevant to intermediate / advanced (I/A) classes, which has "Blue card lines" and "Non-blue card lines" in those classes.

See here for more details of that scheme.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I've said elsewhere that there have been times where I've done a difficult class with someone that could do it, and ended up much better able to lead the same thing with people that couldn't really get it in the class. So by doing it with those that can, I've been more of a help to those that struggled with it.

I've also done classes of about the same level of difficulty, where because so many of my partners couldn't get the important points, I ended up not getting it properly either. And come the freestyle, I couldn't provide the help that I would normally want to be able to.

So I've come to the conclusion that although superficially it seems "nice" to allow anyone into the really hard classes, it is not a good idea. Since not only do the people that aren't ready for it, not get it, sometimes, the people that could help them if they did get get it, don't get it either.

Obviously there is the selfish aspect - it's terribly frustrating being prevented from "getting it" - but it's not only that. Those that most need the help can be hindered, and discouraged, by letting them attempt things way beyond their level as well.

This argument reminds me of the debate between education academics in the 60's/70's(?) regarding comprehensive vs. selective schools. Is it unfair on the more able to handicap them in the same classes as the less able? Is it a handicap at all? Do they learn by helping their less able classmates? Is it fair on the less able to segregate them into separate schools (or workshops)?

[Paul F]

You should feel more guilty about that clause construction.

I have no idea what that means but I like it

[David Franklin]

This argument reminds me of the debate between education academics in the 60's/70's(?) regarding comprehensive vs. selective schools. Is it unfair on the more able to handicap them in the same classes as the less able? Is it a handicap at all? Do they learn by helping their less able classmates? Is it fair on the less able to segregate them into separate schools (or workshops)?

Not sure where this leaves the analogy, but I think the actual ratios matter. One 'challenged' dancer in a class of 30 is not a problem. Ten of them probably are. In practice I've seen the ratio approaching 20 out of 30 once you discount the people dancing in fixed couples.

When it comes to advanced classes, the harder the class is, the fewer pupils there are who have the ability to do any more than keep afloat themselves, let alone help someone struggling. And of course, if someone has egregiously overestimated their ability, it's unlikely anything is going to get them through the class. They would get far more out of something at a more suitable level.