Has Modern Jive divided?

[Andy McGregor]

I can feel your pain brother..I am pants at those pesky airstep type thingys and try as i might to do a few on a really busy freestyle night with loads of people on the dance floor, I never seem to be able to keep hold of ma' woman. Still, the wooden floor breaks her fall...

j.

You beast! A considerate partner would only drop his partner on to a sprung floor

[Heather]

I can feel your pain brother..I am pants at those pesky airstep type thingys and try as i might to do a few on a really busy freestyle night with loads of people on the dance floor, I never seem to be able to keep hold of ma' woman. Still, the wooden floor breaks her fall...

j.

Heather,
xx

[Andreas]

Don't English Ceroc classes run workshops? I've never been on one but I would have thought that would present an ideal opportunity to fix bouncy hands. My guess is that English Ceroc doesn't see this as a bad habit. I've danced with Ceroc Taxi Dancers who have a massive bounce, break their sholders, overturn, collapse their arms, etc, etc. Those taxi dancers must have been approved so I believe that these traits are not seen as problematical - they might even be a requirement

Yes. Me neither. Yes. Me too. Yes. Could well be.

Add to that: I have seen a lot of teachers around London, and danced with a few of them, who have a hefty bounce in their hands.

SAY NO MORE!

But then again, in NZ a lot of teachers bounce in their knees, or limp one way or another ... particularly those trained in Hamilton.

In OZ I have seen and danced with a good number of people who had this 'energy bounce', ie a bounce from their anckles. Though, I must admit, that one is easier to cope with because it is not a continuous disruption of the flow.

[TheTramp]

But then again, in NZ a lot of teachers bounce in their knees, or limp one way or another ... particularly those trained in Hamilton.

But Gus and Chris Docker have (often) told us that Ceroc in NZ is all things good and pure, and should be lifted up, high above, to be worshipped.

So, I know that statement of yours can't be true Andreas...

[DavidB]

Sloth.

Sounds like my kind of dance

[ChrisA]

I can feel your pain brother..I am pants at those pesky airstep type thingys and try as i might to do a few on a really busy freestyle night with loads of people on the dance floor, I never seem to be able to keep hold of ma' woman. Still, the wooden floor breaks her fall...

Keep practising, dude... hopefully you'll still be rubbish at them come Blackpool and won't have had time to practise anything else

[Andy McGregor]

Sounds like my kind of dance

No, that would be Beeroc

[Daisy]

I understand what Andy is saying and I think that the introduction of WCS has had a lot to do with the growing trend to dance in a slotted fashion. Nigel & Nina have also always advocated dancing in a slotted method, coming from a Lindy influence.

However, there are a hell of a lot of superb dancers who have emerged from the Ceroc classes and have developed to become some of the best dancers in the country. I delight in dancing with Viktor, Mick, Gary & Roy AP, not forgetting to mention Billco, Frank and many many others.

I've watched females such as Lydia (when she was around and Hannah, who was the best spinner I've ever seen and what about Emma Petit. If only I too could be as good as them.

Everyone starts somewhere. I've seen good & not so good practice in many venues, but on the whole people are dancing, and isn't that great. Weather they mix well together on the dance floor is debatable. If the dance floor isn't too crowded then generally everyone rubs along together, doing their own thing. If it's very busy then problems occure whatever dance style your doing.....bump, bash, ouch!!

Novice dancers are always going to be raw to dance with if your an old hand at the game...but I'm not sure it's all Cerocs fault. There is one independent I've gone to for years (not yours Andy) and they are still dancing the same 15 moves in the same way because the teachers have never bothered to develope themselves. However, their punters dance on in blissful ignorance because they never travel to find out any differently. It's only when visiting dancers show up that their eyes are opened to other possibilities, whether they choose to do anything about it is up to them.

I would personally hate to see it all divided.....it would be like roping off the dance floor. We just have to be tolerent to the differences in people and try to pass on some of the better practise by example. If dancers have the ability to develop and grow then they will.

Now I've broken with my decision to stick to the birthday threads....god help me

Daisy (Down Under)

[Daisy]

Sorry about the spelling mistakes...having just read through it again I'm looking at the word weather and cringing .....should be whether in this context.

OOps.....also looking at practice/practise. I'm never certain when to use which version. Maybe we need a thread about that

I'll go to the bottom of the class and write a 100 lines

Sorry to go off thread

[Andy McGregor]

However, there are a hell of a lot of superb dancers who have emerged from the Ceroc classes and have developed to become some of the best dancers in the country. I delight in dancing with Viktor, Mick, Gary & Roy AP, not forgetting to mention Billco, Frank and many many others.

I've watched females such as Lydia (when she was around and Hannah, who was the best spinner I've ever seen and what about Emma Petit. If only I too could be as good as them.

Of course those dancers are good. But which variant are they good at? English CerocStyle dancers can get very good at their dance. Mick is a perfect example of this. What I'm talking about are differences.

And Daisy is right, there are independents out there who live in some kind of bubble where they learn nothing new and teach nothing new. People go to their classes and are happy. Until they go elsewhere or receive a visit from a keen outsider. When I've visited these classes I've been asked what dance I'm doing - a few years ago the demo at one of them asked me if I was doing West Coast Swing! I must have been having a premonition as I said that I was just doing modern jive but doing it in a slot.

And, while we're on the subject of that slot. IMHO it's not always a slotted dance to the extent of WCS. There are moves that require a circular movement - they're intrinsic to the move. But these moves can be named and the circular action is part of them and what makes them look and feel good. IMHO the basis of the smooth n slotted style is similar to bullfighting: the matador steps out of the way (usually to the left) of the bull and allows it's smooth progress without interruption: then he turns the bull and repeats this action. Leaving the bull fighting example, there may be times when the slot is rotated but it's more like sending the follower up and down the spokes on a wheel. In the English CerocStyle there is more of a circle where both partners walk around the circumference in a clockwise direction most of the time - rather like both partners walking around the rim of a wheel.

So what happens when one style only is on a crowded dance floor? There are very few collisions as everyone is going pretty much the same way. Consider a tray of marbles, representing circular English CerocStyle dancers, they all arrange themselves nicely when you shake the tray. What happens when you introduce a few slotted dancers? Collisions and disorder Consider the tray of marbles, drop in a few clothes pegs (couldn't think of anything else that shape, sorry ) and shake the tray: it now looks a mess. But take the marbles out drop in a few more clothes pegs and order returns with the pegs lining up in one direction or the other. It's no wonder it feels so pleasant to dance with your own kind

[LMC]

Franck also offers a lot of style and musicality (and other advanced) workshops, like his 'focus on' classes in Stirling every Sunday, which is great. Don't any of the English teachers do this? Surely you must have lots of different ceroc workshops down in Englandshire? I dunno, please enlighten me.(

Unfortunately, not on a weekly basis followed by freestyle - some workshops come around fairly frequently, given the denser population and therefore higher demand round 'ere. But they will always have the same content and are delivered as "one-offs", with bare minimum freestyle practice. As numbers are small, they have to be expensive to cover costs - a lot of people balk at £25/£30 - I certainly would every week! It can be quite hard to put the things you've learned into practice over the following weeks with people who haven't been to the workshop, which means that learning may not always "stick".

Somewhere like Bognor, attracts people from all over, these people may not have the choices that we do and may only get to dance once a week, therefore, not getting exposure to the new trends, that's all.

- we're lucky in London in that most of us have a choice of several evenings all within reasonable (say 45 minutes) distance.

Andy may have a point in style terms although the regional bias is rubbish - Monday/F**ky L**h anyone?

[clevedonboy]

And Daisy is right, there are independents out there who live in some kind of bubble where they learn nothing new and teach nothing new. People go to their classes and are happy. Until they go elsewhere or receive a visit from a keen outsider. When I've visited these classes I've been asked what dance I'm doing - a few years ago the demo at one of them asked me if I was doing West Coast Swing! I must have been having a premonition as I said that I was just doing modern jive but doing it in a slot.

Amen to that - I was getting asked that same thing at the class I started at after visiting other more enlightened people. Regularly I heard the mantra "What move's that then?". Those same people will still be there now week after week learning move after move & they're happy. Do I really want to dance with them if I see them at a dance - nope, do I try to avoid dancing near them - yep. Elitist, Moi?

[timbp]

Consider a tray of marbles, representing circular English CerocStyle dancers, they all arrange themselves nicely when you shake the tray. What happens when you introduce a few slotted dancers? Collisions and disorder

I suspect your marbles are bigger than mine (did I really write that in a public forum?).

Using a bag of marbles and a bag of pegs bought from the local $2 shop, I find pegs take the space of 3 or 4 marbles.


Marbles and pegs aside: if you learn to dance slotted and assume those around you dance slotted, do you develop the same floorcraft as someone who dances a more circular style?

I would not say I dance slotted. But I'm aware of where the slot would be, and to a certain extent consider rotating moves as moving the slot. And sometimes I make a particular effort to keep my partner within the slot, usually as a personal exercise in leading.

But I don't think I'd like to be restricted to a slot (let's see how I cope when Nicky and Robert start teaching WCS on Sunday).
I like bringing a woman in to my side, then choosing where to send her out depending on where space is available.

I like the flexibility of modern jive. Restrictions on that flexibility are useful exercises, but I wouldn't want to say that modern jive must be slotted (or that it must be circular).

However, yesterday I danced with someone with a bouncy hand. And it didn't bounce in time with the song I was dancing to (which I'm almost certain was the song that was playing). In my considered, forgiving, all-emcompassing opinion, that was not modern jive.

[stewart38]

Very interesting thread which at first I thought to dismiss as another way over the top generalisation

I think it has merit

I think there were more beginners at Bognor then at Southport and or Camber but was aware of a different style.

Time will tell

[David Bailey]

Of course those dancers are good. But which variant are they good at? English CerocStyle dancers can get very good at their dance. Mick is a perfect example of this. What I'm talking about are differences.

Andy, you've not convinced me that there is an English CerocStyle in the first place.

I think it's possible that there are English / Scottish differences, in the same way as there seems to be a definite Aussie Style.

But I don't know what those differences are, and I'd suggest the best way to do this is not assume, but ask - I'd recommend "What is English Style?" and "What is Scottish Style?" threads.

You're making a lot of assumptions based on one weekender. Let's face it, you've got to be pretty keen to come down from Scotland to Bognor, so it's not likely that the travellers are going to be representative of anything except "Scottish people keen enough to travel to the other end of the country".

IMHO the basis of the smooth n slotted style is similar to bullfighting: the matador steps out of the way (usually to the left) of the bull and allows it's smooth progress without interruption: then he turns the bull and repeats this action. Leaving the bull fighting example, there may be times when the slot is rotated but it's more like sending the follower up and down the spokes on a wheel. In the English CerocStyle there is more of a circle where both partners walk around the circumference in a clockwise direction most of the time - rather like both partners walking around the rim of a wheel.

That's a good description of the classic differences between Cuban and cross-body salsa style to me. Can't see it in Ceroc though...

And if you want to debate circular vs. slotted, feel free - but I'm not convinced that these map onto English vs. Scottish. And not many other people seem to be convinced either...

[Andy McGregor]

I suspect your marbles are bigger than mine (did I really write that in a public forum?).

Using a bag of marbles and a bag of pegs bought from the local $2 shop, I find pegs take the space of 3 or 4 marbles.

I did say the pegs were the only think I could think of. Mine are those small ones that you use to hold up your Christmas cards.

I was trying to think of something oblong that is as long as the diameter of a standard marble What I was trying to illustrate was that the two shapes don't produce nice patterns. I wasn't really trying to illustrate the amount of space taken up by either style. But, while we're on that subject, I believe that the English CerocStyle(tm) takes up at least twice as much dance floor as the Smooth 'n' Slotted (R) style.

I would not say I dance slotted. But I'm aware of where the slot would be, and to a certain extent consider rotating moves as moving the slot. And sometimes I make a particular effort to keep my partner within the slot, usually as a personal exercise in leading.

But I don't think I'd like to be restricted to a slot (let's see how I cope when Nicky and Robert start teaching WCS on Sunday).
I like bringing a woman in to my side, then choosing where to send her out depending on where space is available.

I think you are sending her down a spoke. It strikes me that timbp is a closet slotted dancer.

However, yesterday I danced with someone with a bouncy hand. And it didn't bounce in time with the song I was dancing to

And it sounds like he's a smoothie too.

In my considered, forgiving, all-emcompassing opinion, that was not modern jive.

Ah, we agree here too. It was a variant (done with no regard to the beat by the sound of it) of MJ that I'm calling English CerocStyle. It's not wrong, just different. But not as different as Salsa: still in the same family, but a half-sister.

[tsh]

I like bringing a woman in to my side, then choosing where to send her out depending on where space is available.

That is compatible with my understanding of slotted. The most significant difference I can determine is that on when you bring your partner to your side, Ceroc teaches you both you both to take a step to the left but slotted would require you to step out of her way. Personally, I find the slotted style much more elegant, but rarely achieve it.

I like the flexibility of modern jive. Restrictions on that flexibility are useful exercises, but I wouldn't want to say that modern jive must be slotted (or that it must be circular).

The original question was if the slotted style was really a different dance, in terms of terminology and describing it, not explicitly about which one is best. Does the circular style have more in common with salsa maybe? Assume I want to dance slotted... I'd rather do this at a venue where the beginners were given some clues which would make the slot easier to maintain, but I assume there are people who prefer to dance in a circle all the time, and they'd like a different name for their dance. If we just pretend that they are both a dance called Ceroc, we start generating arguments about who is doing it 'right'...

Sean

[Andy McGregor]

But I don't know what those differences are, and I'd suggest the best way to do this is not assume, but ask - I'd recommend "What is English Style?" and "What is Scottish Style?" threads.

I'm not one of those infuriating people who ask a question they already have an answer to. I'm a different kind of infuriating altogether

And I'm not talking about the differences between Ceroc in Scotland and England. I'm just making the observation that the Scots dance smooth and slotted. If I hadn't done that our Scottish readers would have said I was wrong to say that there is a CerocStyle that is bouncy in circles.

You're making a lot of assumptions based on one weekender. Let's face it, you've got to be pretty keen to come down from Scotland to Bognor, so it's not likely that the travellers are going to be representative of anything except "Scottish people keen enough to travel to the other end of the country".

I'm not making any assumptions based on a single weekender. I just came to the realisation of the division at this weekender. I've danced in most venues within 80 miles of Brighton and quite a few others besides. And I've been to a lot of weekenders too. I've always thought that the majority of English Ceroc dancers were poor dancers or poorly taught. Now I think they're just different. I've dance with a lot of Scottish Ceroc dancers and not found them the same as the English variant. They're more my style, Smooth 'n' Slotted.

Once you accept that there's two different styles it make things easier to understand.

[Andy McGregor]

The original question was if the slotted style was really a different dance, in terms of terminology and describing it, not explicitly about which one is best. Does the circular style have more in common with salsa maybe? Assume I want to dance slotted... I'd rather do this at a venue where the beginners were given some clues which would make the slot easier to maintain, but I assume there are people who prefer to dance in a circle all the time, and they'd like a different name for their dance. If we just pretend that they are both a dance called Ceroc, we start generating arguments about who is doing it 'right'...

Sean

At last someone who's on my wavelength. Have some rep

[Lynn]

I agree there are two different styles but I don't think its regional at all. (Eg - I noticed David F dancing slotted at the BFG - didn't realise who he was at that stage, but did think 'lovely dancer, must try and get a dance with him') There does seem to be a high standard of dancing in Scotland, and its possibly the more experienced dancers who prefer a slotted style, which may be what is suggesting a regional variation?