Has Modern Jive divided?

[Andy McGregor]

I am not alone in the UK, which is why Andy's statement / name calling is a gross generalisation. many franchises, teachers have made significant changes to the format of Ceroc classes and I have learned / benefited from their experience and been able to follow in their trail up here in Scotland.

I thought my statement/name calling was quite particular.

I've not been to every Ceroc class in England. But I've been to a lot of them and danced with many people from them over the weekend. I think my description of their dance is quite accurate and there seems little variation between English Ceroc areas - except Ceroc Kent ladies have a very distinctive free hand movement that makes them easy to spot/avoid

But this thread is about the divergence into two identifiably different dance styles. The split has happened already. Both styles are now on different courses but the split was so recent that the both styles are still in sight of each other. There's nothing wrong with either style when you're within one camp or the other: it's when the two styles mix that the differences become problematical. Currently we can still dance together but because the smooth 'n' slotted style has a lighter lead it's the one that feels jerked around

As with any course change, early on the difference is only slight initially, but as time goes on you get further and further apart. However, Ceroc is the leader and needs to behave as such. If I was Mike Ellard I'd be looking to introduce something new that makes the rest look like followers - but where will that leave Ceroc Scotland who are in the Smooth 'n' Slotted camp? Come on Franck come over to the dark side, you know you want to, you smoothy

[Franck]

I thought my statement/name calling was quite particular.

No, that's not the same thing, you used the particular to make a generalisation. Taking anecdotal perceptions of a few dances to paint 'English CerocStyle' as something bad. Not surprising, considering that Ceroc are in competition to your own nights.
We clearly have met different dancers from Ceroc England as my (also anecdotal) experience varies differently. Most Ceroc dancers from England I have had the pleasure to dance with followed beautifully, could dance slotted or circular, and were a joy to lead.

Come on Franck come over to the dark side, you know you want to, you smoothy

Some people might argue that I am the Dark Side!

[Andy McGregor]

No, that's not the same thing, you used the particular to make a generalisation. Taking anecdotal perceptions of a few dances to paint 'English CerocStyle' as something bad. Not surprising, considering that Ceroc are in competition to your own nights.

Ahh. That old chestnut. I used many observations to extrapolate to the characteristics of the population. Although there was no design to my statistics I believe I've danced with a representative number of English Cerocers. And, in the main, they bounce, turn out their left shoulder on the back-step and nod, let their elbows go behind their backs and hand go behind their heads in turns. This is a different dance from the one taught by Nigel and Nina. It's still a dance, just different from the one I do. And different from most of us in the blues room

[Franck]

It's still a dance, just different from the one I do. And different from most of us in the blues room

I didn't have you pegged as elitist!

[Lory]

English Cerocer

That's me

[Andy McGregor]

I didn't have you pegged as elitist!

If I was elitist I wouldn't have danced with so many English Cerocers over the weekend. But I am starting to feel separatist

[Andy McGregor]

That's me

No it isn't. Lory is a fabulous Snooth 'n' Slotted dancer. This might be because she was a Hipsters regular and had lessons from the likes of Nigel and Amir.

[Russell Saxby]

But this thread is about the divergence into two identifiably different dance styles.

and there was me thinking this was one of those slag off Ceroc threads - silly me.

[Andy McGregor]

and there was me thinking this was one of those slag off Ceroc threads - silly me.

I think I know where that thought came from. I used to think that a great deal of Ceroc was watered down Modern Jive taught with no individual feedback. And I used to ridicule Ceroc for it. But now I've come to the conclusion that it's a different dance I can see it for what it, unashamedly, is. And what it isn't.

You might as well say that Argentine Tango is not Ballroom Tango. They're two different dances and can not be compared in any but the most general terms.

What we need is for more people to realise that they're doing two different dances. And we need a name for the Smooth 'n' Slotted jive that is not Ceroc.

[Gadget]

It seems to me that Andy is arguing that all ceroc teachers go through the CTA and come out with a bland automic teaching method. And all teachers who come through this doll out the same practiced, time-worn information.

Last time I checked, most of the teachers under Franck's wing were CTA approved... so that means that the difference can't lie in the teaching - it must be in the students.

I propose that it's a mentality prevelant in England of helping yourself before others. Giving opinions without listening to anyone else's. Turning away from a problem rather than approaching it... Those that break from this mould and actually reach out to help people without any selfish undertones tend to develop into decent people.

[Lory]

No it isn't. Lory is a fabulous Snooth 'n' Slotted dancer. This might be because she was a Hipsters regular and had lessons from the likes of Nigel and Amir.

Thanks for that but who knows

IMO, places like Scotland and London, (amongst others I'm sure) are where the 'trends' start, it just takes time to filter through to the more provincial venues.

It's the same as music trends.

Somewhere like Bognor, attracts people from all over, these people may not have the choices that we do and may only get to dance once a week, therefore, not getting exposure to the new trends, that's all.

[Lory]

I propose that it's a mentality prevelant in England of helping yourself before others.

WHAT!

[David Franklin]

Smooth & Slotted MJ (& Scottish CerocStyle) Danced in a slot with no hand bounce.

Although I dance slotted myself, it's worth pointing out that the last "slotted v.s. circular" debate was effectively ended when DavidB weighed in on the circular side.

Oh, and Robert Royston (3 times US Open winner) generally has a bouncy hand...

[David Franklin]

WHAT!

I propose that it's a mentality prevalent with some of engaging fingers before brain. Giving opinions without actually knowing what you're talking about.

[Little Monkey]

..........English Cerocers. And, in the main, they bounce, turn out their left shoulder on the back-step and nod, let their elbows go behind their backs and hand go behind their heads in turns. This is a different dance from the one taught by Nigel and Nina. It's still a dance, just different from the one I do. And different from most of us in the blues room

Ummm, and so do quite a few Scottish beginners and intermediates!

I've had the pleasure of dancing with a lot of really fabulous English jivers / cerocers, and some really rubbish Scottish ones. Oh, and surprise surprise, the other way round, too! I've even come across one or two really awful 'jangoistas', shock horror!

I do however think you might be right in suggesting that since Scottish classes tend to be smaller, there's perhaps a wee bit more of a chance for the teachers to put some more emphasis on things like lead and follow, style etc? Also, I do like the way our teachers seem to draw a lot from other dance styles (lately it's been very much focus on tango), and introducing this in their more advanced classes and workshops. Don't English ceroc teachers do this?

Franck also offers a lot of style and musicality (and other advanced) workshops, like his 'focus on' classes in Stirling every Sunday, which is great. Don't any of the English teachers do this? Surely you must have lots of different ceroc workshops down in Englandshire? I dunno, please enlighten me.

Maybe it's just Franck being creative, inventive and completely not giving a rat's a*se about the book? But surely you had the same training as some of these 'less good' (whoever they are, I don't think I've met them) teachers, Franck?

So, is it just down to individual style, and us Scots have just been very lucky to get the best teachers? Or is it something in the water? (In Franck's case, in the champagne..... )

Oh, and one thing......... I got a lovely compliment when I was dancing in London before Christmas; The lovely man I danced with said "Why is it all you Scottish ladies are such amazing dancers?" Of course I was flattered to hear this (hugs to you!), but have since thought about it.... Dancers that go across the country to visit other venues or go to weekenders are more likely to be more advanced and perhaps more confident (not me!) dancers, aren't they? I'm sure if you'd go to any normal Scottish ceroc night, you'd find some amazing dancers, some good ones, and some really stinking awful ones, too! (And everything in between, of course).

Oh dear, I'm just rambling here.....

It's still a dance, just different from the one I do. And different from most of us in the blues room

I didn't have you pegged as elitist!

Waaaaaah! I always loooooooooooove hanging out in the blues room, especially in places like Southport!!! Does that make me elitist, too?

[filthycute]

And we need a name for the Smooth 'n' Slotted jive that is not Ceroc.

Smott

Smood

Sloot

Slooth

I like the next one,

Sloth.


FC x x

[Daisy Chain]

I believe I've danced with a representative number of English Cerocers. And, in the main, they bounce, turn out their left shoulder on the back-step and nod, let their elbows go behind their backs and hand go behind their heads in turns.

Are you faultless then?

Daisy

(A Fawlty Little English Flower)

[Andy McGregor]

Are you faultless then?

Daisy

(A Fawlty Little English Flower)

This thread isn't about 'faults' it's about differences. At least that's how I (now) see it. Those particular features of English CerocStyle are part of the differences I've noticed. I try not to do any of those things when I lead or follow. I may not always succeed. But those people who do them aren't wrong, they are doing what they've been taught - where else would they have learnt what they do? They could have learnt by copying, they could have learnt by some other process, but a class that produces a whole phalanx of people doing the same thing has somehow taught that thing in the class, even if that thing was not intentional. For so many people to come out the same the sameness must be the result of a learning process at some level.

On a personal level, my dancing has many 'faults'. Some of them I'm aware of and addressing. Some of the others I'm aware of and have decided that there's nothing I can reasonably do at my age to fix them: such as lack of brute strength for airsteps I know my dancing has other faults that I'm not aware of and I would love it if someone would tell me what they were and how to fix them.

[Gadget]

I propose that it's a mentality prevalent with some of engaging fingers before brain. Giving opinions without actually knowing what you're talking about.

Are you meant to in this thread??

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[Jive Brummie]

Some of the others I'm aware of and have decided that there's nothing I can reasonably do at my age to fix them: such as lack of brute strength for airsteps I know my dancing has other faults that I'm not aware of and I would love it if someone would tell me what they were and how to fix them.

I can feel your pain brother..I am pants at those pesky airstep type thingys and try as i might to do a few on a really busy freestyle night with loads of people on the dance floor, I never seem to be able to keep hold of ma' woman. Still, the wooden floor breaks her fall...

j.