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Thread: Dance levels: "Card" system?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    Trying to gather votes by ridiculing an argument with a flawed analogy is something not even I or DJ would resort to.
    Really? Ahem.

    Oh. Yes. Definitely. The thought never crossed my mind. I'd never do anything like that.

    Good technique to bear in mind though.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    That is indeed a very funny image that you project here. But the analogy is heavily flawed and you know that. Trying to gather votes by ridiculing an argument with a flawed analogy is something not even I or DJ would resort to.
    Don't try to tell me what I know, you might be wrong (like now).

    My analogy is correct/flawed depending on whether or not you view "dances well with beginners" as a fundamental measure of an advanced dancer (you do, I don't).

    In excruciating detail:

    abstract: Measure of {performance} is not {fundamental measure}, but {related, but not fundamental measure}

    dancing: Measure of {advanced dancer} is not {dancing fantastically with someone} but {dancing with a beginner}

    hurdling: Measure of {great hurdler} is not {hurdling under normal conditions} but {hurdling with shoelaces tied together}

    I'm probably committing some sort of debating fallacy by basing my analogy on my world-view, but using a "known" "heavily flawed analogy" isn't it.

    Summarising heavily: my definition of "advanced dancer" does not require "dances well with beginners", yours does. It seems like everyone has their own definition of "advanced dancer", and it's kinda pointless trying to argue everyone into having the same definition (instead we can use some more precise (if more wordy) terms (e.g. "person who dances well with beginners", "person who looks amazing dancing with their regular partner" ...))

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary
    My analogy is correct/flawed depending on whether or not you view "dances well with beginners" as a fundamental measure of an advanced dancer (you do, I don't).

    In excruciating detail:

    abstract: Measure of {performance} is not {fundamental measure}, but {related, but not fundamental measure}

    dancing: Measure of {advanced dancer} is not {dancing fantastically with someone} but {dancing with a beginner}

    hurdling: Measure of {great hurdler} is not {hurdling under normal conditions} but {hurdling with shoelaces tied together}

    I'm probably committing some sort of debating fallacy by basing my analogy on my world-view, but using a "known" "heavily flawed analogy" isn't it.

    Summarising heavily: my definition of "advanced dancer" does not require "dances well with beginners", yours does. It seems like everyone has their own definition of "advanced dancer", and it's kinda pointless trying to argue everyone into having the same definition (instead we can use some more precise (if more wordy) terms (e.g. "person who dances well with beginners", "person who looks amazing dancing with their regular partner" ...))
    I agree that there is no common definition of "advanced dancer" in MJ - but the "dances with everyone, especially beginners" version is a common definition - I've certainly seen it a few times. So, but this isn't just Andreas' opinion - he's subscribing to a school of thought. Of course, it's fine to disagree, but bear in mind this is not just something he's made up. (And yes, I too subscribe to that school, obviously)

    And if you do disagree, it helps if you say both what's wrong with that definition in your opinion, and what your definition / school of thought is, on the matter.

    The reason I don't think the hurdling analogy is sensible is:
    • Hurdling is a solo sport; dancing is neither solo nor a sport. Unless people go to freestyle hurdling nights.
    • It's very easy to define who the best hurdler is; it's much more difficult to judge who the best dancer is
    • Hurdlers would never tie their shoelaces together, but advanced dancers do generally (and IMO should) dance with beginners on a regular basis.

    Although this discussion has convinced me that, whether or not a blue-card type of system would be good in the UK, a gold-card system would be a nightmare...

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    [*]dancing is neither solo nor a sport. Unless people go to freestyle hurdling nights.
    These guys might disagree with you:

    http://www.dancesport.uk.com/

    And the dictionary states:

    SPORT
    a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
    b. A particular form of this activity.
    c. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
    d. An active pastime; recreation.

    I'd say that dancing 'might' qualify as a sport.


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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by adss
    a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
    c. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

    I'd say that dancing 'might' qualify as a sport.

    And I thought we had in numerous threads established that dancing is 'rarely' engaged in competitively. If I remember correctly then this was the fundamental argument that people brought up to classify OZ style and pretty much every single OZ dancer/representative on this forum contested it by stating that only a small number of people actually do it competitively. So 'often' is hardly applicable.

    But as we all know, it is all just semantics.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    ...
    Although this discussion has convinced me that, whether or not a blue-card type of system would be good in the UK, a gold-card system would be a nightmare...
    Huh? Why? I suspect that just as over here, it would be an irrelevancy more than anything else. Important Person X saying (or not) (on a piece of cardboard) "you are an advanced dancer" doesn't make all that much difference.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I agree that there is no common definition of "advanced dancer" in MJ - but the "dances with everyone, especially beginners" version is a common definition - I've certainly seen it a few times. So, but this isn't just Andreas' opinion - he's subscribing to a school of thought. Of course, it's fine to disagree, but bear in mind this is not just something he's made up. (And yes, I too subscribe to that school, obviously)
    - beginners will dance with everyone, especially beginners (because they are in their comfort zone with them) - I don’t see how who someone dances with can be used to indicate their level – I see that statement as a criteria of an advanced dancers as highly flawed as it is not a skill based thing – it’s a personality based criteria which probably belongs in the definition of what makes a great dancer rather than what is an advanced dancer

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Although this discussion has convinced me that, whether or not a blue-card type of system would be good in the UK, a gold-card system would be a nightmare...
    aww but you don’t even know what the assessment criteria is for a gold card

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    And I thought we had in numerous threads established that dancing is 'rarely' engaged in competitively. If I remember correctly then this was the fundamental argument that people brought up to classify OZ style and pretty much every single OZ dancer/representative on this forum contested it by stating that only a small number of people actually do it competitively. So 'often' is hardly applicable.
    in Australia we have 5 comps a year, I can think of just as many that I have seen mentioned on this forum for the UK
    The definition of rare is
    1. Coming or occurring far apart in space of time; unusual; uncommon
    2. Few in number
    3. Thinly distributed over an area or few and widely separated
    4. Having the component parts not closely compacted; of low density or pressure
    5. Remarkable or unusual, especially in excellence or greatness

    I don’t think comps in either Australia or UK fall into that definition although they are not something the majority of dancers participate in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    But as we all know, it is all just semantics.
    got to love semantics

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    in Australia we have 5 comps a year, I can think of just as many that I have seen mentioned on this forum for the UK
    The definition of rare is
    1. Coming or occurring far apart in space of time; unusual; uncommon
    2. Few in number
    3. Thinly distributed over an area or few and widely separated
    4. Having the component parts not closely compacted; of low density or pressure
    5. Remarkable or unusual, especially in excellence or greatness

    I don’t think comps in either Australia or UK fall into that definition although they are not something the majority of dancers participate in.

    got to love semantics
    You mean 3% is NOT rare? What is? For OZ or the UK only it'd be 1.5% of all days of a year. This has to be rare. It certainly isn't often.

    Yeah, gotta love them semantics

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    to all the dissagreement with "Dance"="Sport"
    Quote Originally Posted by adss
    d. An active pastime; recreation.
    I'd agree that dancing could be grouped in with this part of the definition of 'sport'. But so could stamp collecting or knitting.

    Oh, and if anyone agrees with a complete set of "Rules" for MJ, then I will be shocked and stunned.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    - beginners will dance with everyone, especially beginners (because they are in their comfort zone with them) - I don’t see how who someone dances with can be used to indicate their level – I see that statement as a criteria of an advanced dancers as highly flawed as it is not a skill based thing – it’s a personality based criteria which probably belongs in the definition of what makes a great dancer rather than what is an advanced dancer
    I don't agree - I believe it is a skill-based assessment, which answers the "what is an advanced dancer" from a "social dancer" POV rather than a "competition / exhibition dancer" POV. But my main point was to say that this is a viewpoint that's been around a while, is all.

    The whole quote (e.g. from PJay here) says:

    Quote Originally Posted by PJay on cerocforum
    Beginner Dancer: Dances with everyone.
    Intermediate Dancer: To good to dance with beginners.
    Hot Shot Dancer: To good to dance with anyone.
    Advanced Dancer: Dances with everyone, especially beginners.
    But, let's be clear - there's no consensus about what is an advanced dancer, anywhere, in the UK or in Australia (as evidenced by this thread). So it's all opinion-based at the moment.

    Although, interestingly, this Ceroc Forum thread comes close to defining what the skillset of a Gold Card-holding advanced dancer is:

    Quote Originally Posted by From the Aussie thread
    • Musical Interpretation
    • Floorcraft & Use of Space
    • Body Rhythm & Movement
    • Aerials & Lift Technique
    • Styling
    • Choreographical Skills
    • Performance Skills & “Capturing” an Audience
    • Couple Chemistry & the “X” Factor
    • Body Lines & Extensions in eg, Dips & Drops
    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    aww but you don’t even know what the assessment criteria is for a gold card
    Which is exactly the problem, and why I think an "Advanced dancer" card would be a very very bad idea for the UK, because there's no consensus as to what an advanced dancer is. Combined with the fact that there are no clear national standards for "advanced classes", I think a gold card, in the current UK climate, could be divisive and not useful.

    The same cannot be said for blue cards, which to me can be clearly defined, and meet a definite set of requirements (for example, ensuring a minimum standard of leading / following before doing intermediate / advanced classes).

    So, to sum up, I think an "intermediate assessment" process would be useful in the UK, but an "advanced assessment" would not be. Perhaps if intermediate assessments were well-established, there would then be more clarity and progression towards advanced assessments; but one step at a time.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I don't agree - I believe it is a skill-based assessment
    This "definition" you use of an advanced dancer:

    Beginner Dancer: Dances with everyone.
    Intermediate Dancer: Too good to dance with beginners.
    Hot Shot Dancer: Too good to dance with anyone.
    Advanced Dancer: Dances with everyone, especially beginners.


    ... is just silly in this context.

    It's been around a while, but its function was in the context of defining hotshots, not advanced dancers, and was used specifically to explain one particular aspect of hotshots, namely that sometimes they're not as good as they are imagined to think they are - and that the level of "advanced dancer" is beyond that of "hotshot".

    The idea that just dancing with beginners makes someone advanced is just a nonsense.

    Now it may well be that an advanced dancer will be better able to give a beginner a nice dance, and one that makes the said beginner look and feel better while dancing. It may also be that you can sometimes tell which of two dancers is more advanced in some respects, by seeing how he or she dances with a beginner.

    But it's not the dancing with beginners that makes them advanced - it's their being advanced that enables them to dance better with beginners.

    Are you also disputing that this hypothetical advanced dancer you're talking about will be able to dance better with another such, than with the beginner?

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    The idea that just dancing with beginners makes someone advanced is just a nonsense.
    Totally agree with that one. But I don't think it was DJ's intention to say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    It may also be that you can sometimes tell which of two dancers is more advanced in some respects, by seeing how he or she dances with a beginner.

    But it's not the dancing with beginners that makes them advanced - it's their being advanced that enables them to dance better with beginners.
    And? As far as I understand the entire previous discussion this is what DJ (and I) postulated. So you are agreeing then?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Are you also disputing that this hypothetical advanced dancer you're talking about will be able to dance better with another such, than with the beginner?
    Nobody would dispute that because that'd just be silly.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    { snip stuff about advanced dancers, which frankly I didn't read too much... }
    Are you also disputing that this hypothetical advanced dancer you're talking about will be able to dance better with another such, than with the beginner?
    I'm not saying anything, because I'm profoundly uninterested in turning this into another "What is an advanced dancer" thread. In fact, I remember being slapped down early last year by someone for asking that very question.

    My only point was to say that there are several definitions, and that was one of them.

    But yes, I'm happy to concede that definition is junk, if it'll stop us talking about it, and go back to the original point of this thread, which is about assessment systems for MJ / Ceroc dancers, and whether such systems would be a Good or Bad thing in the UK.

    And I repeat, my point - yes I did have one - was to demonstrate the inherent problems of a Gold Card system in the UK, because of this very lack of clarity of definition - no-one can get a solid definition of advanced dancers yet.

    Hope that's, err, clear...
    Last edited by David Bailey; 13th-February-2006 at 08:54 PM.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Kiddies, Kiddies, Settle Down

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    and go back to the original point of this thread, which is about assessment systems for MJ / Ceroc dancers, and whether such systems would be a Good or Bad thing in the UK.
    Ok then back on topic – I think opt in development systems outside of competition are good for Modern Jive what ever the country.

    Obviously the implementing of such programs has to be handled with care and consideration – for those that come to the system new to modern jive for them it will just be the way that it always was. Those that are already involved in Modern Jive are likely to find it scary and not what they consider to be the Modern Jive “way”.

    Most people find it hard to gauge their development with out clear markers/goals to achieve – and this is what the card system provides for those that want it.

    It is also a way to develop a depth to Modern Jive beyond it’s an easy fun social dance – for modern jive to grow dancers of all levels need to be actively developed - just because in the past people had to do it all themselves doesn’t mean it needs to go on that way

    In addition to just having the cards and assessments – there needs to be a point/reward to it – ie in Perth (aus) once you had passed your yellow card intermediate classes are yours for the taking , in Sydney once you have your blue or gold card there are specific classes that are available to you

    *note talking about an opt in system only - except perhaps for the very first step from beginners to open intermediate *cringes at horrors of beginners self promoting to intermediate in their second week*


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    And I repeat, my point - yes I did have one - was to demonstrate the inherent problems of a Gold Card system in the UK, because of this very lack of clarity of definition - no-one can get a solid definition of advanced dancers yet.
    Of course there is a lack of clarity – there isn’t a system in the UK as yet - the only way for some clarity to develop is for someone to go this is what I think/believe and stand up and doing something to support that ie in their classes have some measurable goals for students to achieve and gain from – because we can discuss the definitions to death but it doesn’t make them real.


    *dives under fire blanket*

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    Those that are already involved in Modern Jive are likely to find it scary and not what they consider to be the Modern Jive “way”.
    Just because something is new, does not mean that it is good. Just because existing MJ people may see a 'card' system as not the MJ "way" does not imply that it's "scary" or that there is nothing behind this resistance other than insubstantial feelings of unease.

    Most people find it hard to gauge their development with out clear markers/goals to achieve – and this is what the card system provides for those that want it.
    "for those that want it"? So having a card means you have reached X standard. So not having a card means that you are not of X standard.
    You want to gauge how good you are, then ask a teacher. You want to compare yourself with other dancer's ability, then enter a competition. Other than that, there are other goals you can set yourself (discussed in other threads)

    A card system is a line in the sand for people to stand on one side or the other. One of the best things about MJ is it's obliteration of lines separating race, class, size, age,... and you want to impose a fixed line of Ability. There are other ways to achieve the same goals without such a blatant line.

    It is also a way to develop a depth to Modern Jive beyond it’s an easy fun social dance – for modern jive to grow dancers of all levels need to be actively developed - just because in the past people had to do it all themselves doesn’t mean it needs to go on that way
    I'm unsure of the grammar in the first bit: are you implying that MJ should develop beyond being a fun, social dance? If so, I disagree - "beyond" means leaving the old behind as it progresses forward.

    People have never had to develop their dancing or MJ themselves in the past. There is a good system of workshops and teachers always willing to help. I fail to see how a card system would give more to the dancer than a standard beginner/beginner+/intermediate workshop. Especially when the small and focused workshops provide a comradeship between dancers that survives through all the persons dancing.

    In addition to just having the cards and assessments – there needs to be a point/reward to it – ie in Perth (aus) once you had passed your yellow card intermediate classes are yours for the taking , in Sydney once you have your blue or gold card there are specific classes that are available to you
    So you have to have the card to gain access to these resources. What part of "optional" is this then? You want to travel? Well a passport is optional, as long as you stay in your own country. You may be the best dancer in the world, but not have a card, so are unable to attend something because you are deemed not to be of a sufficiently high standard for that class.

    *note talking about an opt in system only - except perhaps for the very first step from beginners to open intermediate *cringes at horrors of beginners self promoting to intermediate in their second week*
    what horrors? It's the way the system works just now: Someone moving up too soon been done before, and will be done again - How is this a bad thing?

    Of course there is a lack of clarity – there isn’t a system in the UK as yet - the only way for some clarity to develop is for someone to go this is what I think/believe and stand up and doing something to support that ie in their classes have some measurable goals for students to achieve and gain from – because we can discuss the definitions to death but it doesn’t make them real.
    I am all for giving goals, but I don't think that a card system with all the extra policing is the way to do it.

    And what is the point of just having one 'brand' of MJ implementing a card system? Each one will have different criteria. What about those folks who drift from venue to venue? Go to events and weekenders from out with the organisational base - are they going to be turned away because of the lack of 'card'?
    Last edited by Gadget; 14th-February-2006 at 01:51 PM.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    i know i'm a glutton for punishment but here goes ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Just because something is new, does not mean that it is good. Just because existing MJ people may see a 'card' system as not the MJ "way" does not imply that it's "scary" or that there is nothing behind this resistance other than insubstantial feelings of unease.
    but over all most people dislike change – simply because it is change

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    "for those that want it"? So having a card means you have reached X standard. So not having a card means that you are not of X standard.
    You want to gauge how good you are, then ask a teacher. You want to compare yourself with other dancer's ability, then enter a competition. Other than that, there are other goals you can set yourself (discussed in other threads)
    cards are not about comparing yourself to another dancer but achieving a defined skill set – plus NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO COMPETE

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    A card system is a line in the sand for people to stand on one side or the other. One of the best things about MJ is it's obliteration of lines separating race, class, size, age,... and you want to impose a fixed line of Ability. There are other ways to achieve the same goals without such a blatant line.
    what about giving people a common goal – outside of competition – is mad? Why would it cause separation on the lines of “race, class, size. age”?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I'm unsure of the grammar in the first bit: are you implying that MJ should develop beyond being a fun, social dance? If so, I disagree - "beyond" means leaving the old behind as it progresses forward.
    what I was trying to say and said very badly – was that MJ is a baby of dance and due to it’s lack of any sort of defined skill sets, no common/universal comp rules, no national/international governing body is not seen as a serious or proper dance by other more established dances. Developing MJ beyond a purely fun social dance does not require leaving that behind it just means having more layers to it which has already happened with competitions – development programs just fill in the steps between

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    People have never had to develop their dancing or MJ themselves in the past. There is a good system of workshops and teachers always willing to help. I fail to see how a card system would give more to the dancer than a standard beginner/beginner+/intermediate workshop. Especially when the small and focused workshops provide a comradeship between dancers that survives through all the persons dancing.

    So you have to have the card to gain access to these resources. What part of "optional" is this then? You want to travel? Well a passport is optional, as long as you stay in your own country. You may be the best dancer in the world, but not have a card, so are unable to attend something because you are deemed not to be of a sufficiently high standard for that class.
    card systems in no way prevent someone from doing a standard social class or general workshop.

    What occasional carded workshops/ additional speciality class means is that the teachers and students know that everyone in said workshop will have x skills as a minimum.

    For me optional is I can go to social classes with freedom, do general workshops enter comps – dance having a lot of fun where ever I go – but if I want to do that 1 once a month tougher class the teachers need to know I have the min skills so will have to do a x card assessment. People could go their entire MJ life and never do a card assessment and still enjoy classes and workshops


    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    what horrors? It's the way the system works just now: Someone moving up too soon been done before, and will be done again - How is this a bad thing?
    seriously!?!?! You don’t think people self promoting before they is ready causes problems in a class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    And what is the point of just having one 'brand' of MJ implementing a card system? Each one will have different criteria. What about those folks who drift from venue to venue? Go to events and weekenders from out with the organisational base - are they going to be turned away because of the lack of 'card'?
    cards should not impact on ones ability to attend standard social classes. Obviously if company uses cards then it is up to them to ensure that if that one is required for a workshopr/event/additional speciality class then that fact is made clear and have a plan for being fair to those from other areas that may wish to attend.

    Personally I have never found the card system as used in Sydney particuarly noticable - I had no idea of what it was prior to attending my first comp in sydney in 2004 - on the thursday night prior to the comps there was and Gold & Blue card - interstate visitors were advised that if they were competing advanced they could enter the gold card rotation, those competeting interemediate A could enter the blue card rotation and everyone else there was a standard intermediate type class . In 2005 as an advanced interstate competitor I was permitted to enter the gold card rotation. But to be perfectly honest if CMJ had said to me sorry with out X card you will need to go to the intermediate class I wouldn't have been offended - dissapointed on being with some of my friends but - then again what ever level class i go to some people I know won't be in it.

    since then I have obtained my blue card - was interested to see how I would go - and will proberly go for my gold card sometime - the thing I like about the cards is that they are a reflection of my skill and abilities as an individual not with a specific partner

    Also where one goes others will follow – cards are issued by CMJ in Sydney – but I have seen references to them in comp rules in other states

    And what is the point of there being no MJ development programs because there are multiple companies?

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    i know i'm a glutton for punishment but here goes ...
    "discussion" - it's only "punishment" when it feels like you're banging your head against a brick wall

    but over all most people dislike change – simply because it is change
    Over all, most people like change - simply because it's new, fresh and exciting.

    The same nonsensical argument can be made from both sides; there is no point in trying to mark every opposition to the cards as based on 'emotion' rather than 'fact', because the same can be said for supporters of it.

    cards are not about comparing yourself to another dancer but achieving a defined skill set – plus NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO COMPETE
    True - not everyone wants to compete. I don't.
    But I dislike the fact that it is stating "you must have these skills before you are a "good" dancer." True, you won't be at a disadvantage by learning them, but who is to say that this is the direction you want to learn in? It is very close to trying to define what is and is not MJ.

    Why is a card the best way to work towards a predefined skill set? I think that dancers would get more out of (and perhaps gain a wider and more 'stable' set of basic skills) by attending the "basic" workshops. If you think that people should be able to do x,y and z before going on a workshop/into a class, then state it on the literature and have teachers who stick to the curriculum rather than dumbing it down for those who fail to meet the criteria asked for.

    what about giving people a common goal – outside of competition – is mad?
    People have a common goal: to dance better. Most folk have their own list of personal goals they want to make in order to achieve this. What the 'card' system does is give them a list of things that can be checked off. But it's not them that decides when to do each thing, if there are other things that they would rather work on, and it's not them that checks them off. The control of the dancer's own development is being taken out of the dancer's hands and placed in the hands of 'the collective'.

    If you could simply produce a personal checklist of things that make a better dancer for people to mark themselves off against, in their own time, then I think it would be a brilliant idea.

    Why would it cause separation on the lines of “race, class, size. age”?
    Separation /segregation. Those with the card in this line: those without on that. Blacks sit on those seats: Whites on those. You have said yourself that the lack of card is not an indication of lack of ability, but are separating as if it is.

    what I was trying to say and said very badly – was that MJ is a baby of dance and due to it’s lack of any sort of defined skill sets, no common/universal comp rules, no national/international governing body is not seen as a serious or proper dance by other more established dances.
    I disagree that these things make MJ a "baby" of dance. I think to the contrary: they make it the king of dance - the fact that the 'more established dances' don't see it as a "serious or proper" dance is nothing to do with it.
    You can't have any defined skill set other than a general one because of the variety and all-encompassing nature of the dance.
    You can't have universal rules because each dancer dances their interpretation of the music. Each rule would have to have multiple exceptions, and these have exceptions... I've seen more definitions of MJ based on what it's not rather than what it is - it is constantly evolving and drawing from every other dance form.

    Developing MJ beyond a purely fun social dance does not require leaving that behind it just means having more layers to it which has already happened with competitions – development programs just fill in the steps between
    So you should develop skills that are of no use to the "fun and social" aspects of the dance? That is developing/improving it? I think that more connection and musicality skills should be developed that would help these aspects.
    Presentation skills are only of use to those performing rather than dancing: yes they can be added into MJ, but I don't think that they are an advancement of the dance - more an off-shoot or "plugin".

    card systems in no way prevent someone from doing a standard social class or general workshop.

    What occasional carded workshops/ additional speciality class means is that the teachers and students know that everyone in said workshop will have x skills as a minimum.
    Because you don't trust your dancers to police themselves? or the teachers to teach people of that level? or the organisers to make the level required clear?
    Why not make these workshops a two tiered thing: "workshop II" only available to those who have been on "workshop I"

    So someone without a card cannot progress in their dancing beyond a certain level unless they go for private tutorage. Why should I 'go for' a card when I know I can fulfil all the requirements? It would waste time/resources that I could be using to have fun dancing. Or going to a workshop where I might learn some more rather than showing what I already know.

    seriously!?!?! You don’t think people self promoting before they is ready causes problems in a class?
    - I think that segregating has the potential to stop the 'improving' dancers from learning how to cope with poorer dancers on the social dance floor.
    - I think that a poorer dancer is more likely to demonstrate/accentuate where a move can go wrong and offer opportunities for the more experienced dancer to learn from it.
    - I think that it increases the likelihood of injury because the improving dancer doesn't get the chance to see/stop a potentially dangerous movement done in a practice situation - it only presents it's self in social occasions.
    - I think that it reduces the beginner dancer's exposure to the feel of what it should feel like with a better dancer, so slows their development.
    - I think that it broadens any existing social divide between skilled and non-skilled dancers because they are not interacting in the class environment.
    - I think that it makes each side less likely to interact socially with the other because they can be identified as 'of the same level': beginners more likely to dance with beginners and learn slowly/incorrect and card holders not dancing with them for fear of injury.
    - I think that people 'moving up too quickly' either sink or swim - and the taxi-lifeguards can pull them to safety and get them ready to dive in again with a bit more experience.

    so yes - seriously, I have no problem with it.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    "discussion" - it's only "punishment" when it feels like you're banging your head against a brick wall
    and don’t it feels so good when you stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    True - not everyone wants to compete. I don't.
    But I dislike the fact that it is stating "you must have these skills before you are a "good" dancer." True, you won't be at a disadvantage by learning them, but who is to say that this is the direction you want to learn in? It is very close to trying to define what is and is not MJ.
    development programs aren't about someone being a “good” dancer - it’s about having achieved a known level of skills. People of the same skill level can be good/bad/indifferent dancers. If you that isn’t the direction you want to learn in – don’t do it – remember what I am talking about is not compulsory it is opt in

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Why is a card the best way to work towards a predefined skill set? I think that dancers would get more out of (and perhaps gain a wider and more 'stable' set of basic skills) by attending the "basic" workshops.
    and why would having cards stop students doing basic workshops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    If you think that people should be able to do x,y and z before going on a workshop/into a class, then state it on the literature and have teachers who stick to the curriculum rather than dumbing it down for those who fail to meet the criteria asked for.
    because people will often over estimate their abilities – just look at how many threads there are on this forum about leads/follows lacking basic skills – and how to compensate for that – carded workshops mean you know you won’t have to compensate. As a teacher you want all your students to learn what you are teaching - is much easier to teach something when you know everyone in the class has the same min. background in a topic

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    People have a common goal: to dance better. Most folk have their own list of personal goals they want to make in order to achieve this. What the 'card' system does is give them a list of things that can be checked off. But it's not them that decides when to do each thing, if there are other things that they would rather work on, and it's not them that checks them off. The control of the dancer's own development is being taken out of the dancer's hands and placed in the hands of 'the collective'.
    nothing is “taken” from a dancer it’s just a different option

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    If you could simply produce a personal checklist of things that make a better dancer for people to mark themselves off against, in their own time, then I think it would be a brilliant idea.
    and a development program would prevent them from doing this how? there is a time frame on cards?!? why didn't someone tell me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    You can't have any defined skill set other than a general one because of the variety and all-encompassing nature of the dance.
    You can't have universal rules because each dancer dances their interpretation of the music. Each rule would have to have multiple exceptions, and these have exceptions... I've seen more definitions of MJ based on what it's not rather than what it is - it is constantly evolving and drawing from every other dance form.
    but comp rules will state that competitors must dacne X% of modern jive - would it really be so bad for their to be a common definition of Modern Jive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    So you should develop skills that are of no use to the "fun and social" aspects of the dance? That is developing/improving it? I think that more connection and musicality skills should be developed that would help these aspects.
    Presentation skills are only of use to those performing rather than dancing: yes they can be added into MJ, but I don't think that they are an advancement of the dance - more an off-shoot or "plugin".
    what skills would be of no use to the “fun & social” aspects of dancing? – the only one I can think of is aerials – just not a social dancing sort of thing – but then again not the sort of skills I would think of being included in a development system/program

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Because you don't trust your dancers to police themselves? or the teachers to teach people of that level? or the organisers to make the level required clear?
    Why not make these workshops a two tiered thing: "workshop II" only available to those who have been on "workshop I"
    and that is different how? And what if I already know what has been taught in Workshop I does that mean I have to pay to do it again so that I can do workshop II?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    So someone without a card cannot progress in their dancing beyond a certain level unless they go for private tutorage. Why should I 'go for' a card when I know I can fulfil all the requirements? It would waste time/resources that I could be using to have fun dancing. Or going to a workshop where I might learn some more rather than showing what I already know.
    and where did I say that private tutorage was a requirement for getting a card? If you know you can fulfil the requirements and you would like to have that skill level formally recognised - then get assessed. How is that a waste of time/resources? It’s one dance, with a teacher

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    - I think that segregating has the potential to stop the 'improving' dancers from learning how to cope with poorer dancers on the social dance floor.
    - I think that a poorer dancer is more likely to demonstrate/accentuate where a move can go wrong and offer opportunities for the more experienced dancer to learn from it.
    - I think that it increases the likelihood of injury because the improving dancer doesn't get the chance to see/stop a potentially dangerous movement done in a practice situation - it only presents it's self in social occasions.
    - I think that it reduces the beginner dancer's exposure to the feel of what it should feel like with a better dancer, so slows their development.
    - I think that it broadens any existing social divide between skilled and non-skilled dancers because they are not interacting in the class environment.
    - I think that it makes each side less likely to interact socially with the other because they can be identified as 'of the same level': beginners more likely to dance with beginners and learn slowly/incorrect and card holders not dancing with them for fear of injury.
    - I think that people 'moving up too quickly' either sink or swim - and the taxi-lifeguards can pull them to safety and get them ready to dive in again with a bit more experience.

    so yes - seriously, I have no problem with it.
    be that as it may – look around this forum and you will find any number of threads that discuss what to do about someone who isn’t up to the class level and as a result is annoying/frustrating/dangerous or all three to others in the class * note I am talking about intermediate and above classes

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Over all, most people like change - simply because it's new, fresh and exciting.
    Sorry, but no - culturally, the majority of people fear change; it unsettles them, makes them nervous, and they do their best to avoid it. I think the culture in the UK has become a little more change-tolerant over the past 10-15 years, but that's still a long way to go.

    This means that the way a change is implemented is at least as important (in terms of its likely success) as the change itself. Hence the whole discipline of change management, which is based around implementing changes successfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    People have a common goal: to dance better.
    Some do - some (most?) don't - they just want to have a good time, dance with their friends, meet people, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Separation /segregation. Those with the card in this line: those without on that. Blacks sit on those seats: Whites on those. You have said yourself that the lack of card is not an indication of lack of ability, but are separating as if it is.
    In any teaching environment, you have to segregate by experience / ability; to take an extreme example, how could you teach maths to a class with students ranging from primary-schoolers to maths post-graduates?

    And of course, Ceroc in the UK already does segregate - beginners' classes, intermediate classes, and occasional advanced classes. The main benefit of an assessment system is that it would make such distinctions more transparent, and impose more minimum standards on dancers at each stage. So you'd hopefully get less yankers in intermediate classes, for example.

    Re: MJ being the "baby" of dance.

    My personal opinion is that Ceroc the organisation is great for evangelising partner dancing, but has inhibited the natural development and growth of the dance itself by focussing resources on beginners - this makes great business sense, of course, but it means that the development and advancement is done without much support and encouragement from Ceroc HQ.

    After 25 years of MJ, you'd expect it to be more advanced than it is - compare that with salsa, which is of roughly a similar age, but which has evolved and developed much further and faster as a dance in that time. There is little or no support from the average franchisee to the notion of developing MJ dance technique - the beginners are where the money's at.

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