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Thread: Dance levels: "Card" system?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    it is just another development step
    Sure - although as you said, it's maddeningly unclear what that step actually is...

    Of course, it's even less clear in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    actually the criteria in the first post are for the blue card - and the routine refered to is an I/A class routine - generally class routines consist of 3- 6 moves depending on how exactly you defiene a move that is
    I was referring more to Nicky and Adam's comments on the Gold Card assessment system - for example, in this post, Adam says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam, from the Aussie forum
    Yes freestyle tests are the way all tests are done but often when given the feedback for improvement students find it hard to implement changes dancing constantly with varing ability of dancers. Routine dancing is merely I believe a better way to practice the techniques needed to improve your dancing ability for the test.

    I pesonally find it easier to improve my technique in a routine or a competetive environment because I have a regular partner that I can practice these skills with and ask questions. Once I became more familiar with some of these skills I have more confidence for my general dancing and can further perfect them on the dance floor.
    Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Sure - although as you said, it's maddeningly unclear what that step actually is...

    Of course, it's even less clear in the UK


    I was referring more to Nicky and Adam's comments on the Gold Card assessment system - for example, in this post, Adam says:



    Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?
    I saw in one of your prevoius posts that you said you were not trying to be judgemental because you said so and I ask you and others do you/they honestly believe this when you use words that suggest a condesending and derisive tone.
    If someone asked me what I thought of a routine and I replied I thought it was short and simple do you think that that person would believe that I was being non- judgemental!
    I do not know how you get from Adam's quote that these routines are the basis for assesment when he clearly saids that it is freestyle that one gets assessed on. Routines are just a good way to practice dance techniques because of the environment that may help you to become a better dancer if that is what you want.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?
    the point Adam was making in his post is quite clear that there are certain routines you can do as a way of preparing for getting your gold card - ie that routine will teach you techniques & skills and if you can do the routine you are likely to have mastered the skills and techniques required for a gold card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam on the Australian Forum
    Routine dancing is merely I believe a better way to practice the techniques needed to improve your dancing ability for the test.

    Gold card applicants aren't assessed on how well they did the routine - that is still done via a freestyle dance.

    me thinks you may need to read with a little more care & comprehension as there really is no confusion in Adams post

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ads
    Routines are just a good way to practice dance techniques because of the environment that may help you to become a better dancer if that is what you want.
    I am not going to get myself involved in the discussion about judgement here. But I'd argue that last point. Routines may make one learn moves better because one keeps practicing them until they come out of ones ears but they don't make a better dancer. In fact, I'd be more inclined to say they have just as much negative repercussions as positive because they provide a false sense of security. In this thread I raised a couple of points regarding learning with a partner and the same applies to learning routines. It helps to learn doing moves better and safer, which makes you a better dancer. On the other hand, it gets you used to a partner or small number of partners and 'helps you lose the ability to freestyle' with just about anybody at a level anywhere near to what you do with a your partner. People are lazy and this exploits it. That in turn makes you a worse dancer altough you look better on stage. So it is just a s good as it is bad, if you ask me.

    When I use 'YOU' in the above blurb then this does not address YOU personally but another person in general. So no offense intended, Adrian.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ads
    If someone asked me what I thought of a routine and I replied I thought it was short and simple do you think that that person would believe that I was being non- judgemental!
    Not really, no - to me, short and simple is just a description, it's certainly not (to me) derogatory - some of the best steps and moves I've learnt have been both short and simple. Doesn't in any way mean (again, to me) "good" or "bad"...

    The Jango DVD routines (treated as "just moves") are both short and simple, as are Argentine Tango steps. And they're

    Is this a cultural thing? Do Aussies generally think "long and complex" is better than "short and simple"? Or is that a(nother) gross sterotypical assumption?

    And yes, I'm still beavering away at the "What is Aussie Style" question. Not, in any way, because I want to slag it off - I've slapped down people who tried to turn the "What is Aussie Style" thread into a "Who's better?" p&ssing cotest in the past - but because I really really want to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ads
    I do not know how you get from Adam's quote that these routines are the basis for assesment when he clearly saids that it is freestyle that one gets assessed on.
    Well, from that thread, there's a quote from Nicky:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky
    We do also utilise some of our I/A (Julie & Adam's Northern Stars "Elvis" routine and Camille's "Kylie" Routine) and Intro to Advanced (mine & Robert's "Michael Jackson") routines as appraisal formats for issuing Gold Cards to those we consider meet the required standard.
    and (also from that thread), there's a reply from Ken:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken
    If you assess dancers based on routines, it does not assess them on spontanous choreograhpy, but rather the dancers know what is coming next - practicing the same moves and good memory work. This is very different from free style.
    This seems to indicate that at the least, I'm not alone in thinking that routines are a big part of the assessment (I made the assumption that these were long and complex routines, this may have been way off-base, please let me know if they're not).

    I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong - but presumably that makes it clear why I got that impression in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    I am not going to get myself involved in the discussion about judgement here
    You are just no fun at all...

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    if you can do the routine you are likely to have mastered the skills and techniques required for a gold card.
    When I talk about 'mastered' I mean 'can do under all circumstances'. A routine does under NO circumstances provide any indication that one has 'mastered' a technique. Freestyle is where you test that and the only way to test that in freestyle is by partnering up with a significantly less advanced dancer.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    You are just no fun at all...
    I'll let you argue that with my girlfriend

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    the point Adam was making in his post is quite clear that there are certain routines you can do as a way of preparing for getting your gold card - ie that routine will teach you techniques & skills and if you can do the routine you are likely to have mastered the skills and techniques required for a gold card.
    Yep, that was what I understood to be his point.

    But I'm not sure how that's supposed to work - I'm with the tall blond German on this one, it's difficult to see how doing a routine in itself teaches you anything about advanced dancing (as ably defined by both DavidB and Andybroom recently). It just teaches you how to move your body in a pre-defined sequence, surely?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    me thinks you may need to read with a little more care & comprehension as there really is no confusion in Adams post
    Possibly. But I clearly wasn't the only one to get confused about it; and I'm not totally convinced that I was wrong in the first place either.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    When I talk about 'mastered' I mean 'can do under all circumstances'. A routine does under NO circumstances provide any indication that one has 'mastered' a technique. Freestyle is where you test that and the only way to test that in freestyle is by partnering up with a significantly less advanced dancer.
    a routine give you the repition to master a move or techniquie - and I did say likely to have mastered - I absolutely agree that routines are not the same as freestyle but doing one does give you a chance - especially if you don't have a regular dance partner - to repeat and work with someone on those moves, skills and technquie in it that one wouldn't other wise get. The other thing that routines give is the time to think about the finer details of the moves and exactly how they are being done.

    some of the best freestyle dancers I know are those that have done many routines - with many different partners

    taking that skill or move into freestyle is up to the individual - some will, some won't

    actually I would say that the only wayt to test that is by partnering up with an appropriate level dancer - that may be a less advanced dancer it may be and equially advanced dancer or it may be a more advanced dancer. The partner has to be of a level to cope with the move/technique you are using - using an advanced foot work lead on a beginner is not going to work well no matter what the skill of the more advanced dancer.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    But I'm not sure how that's supposed to work - I'm with the tall blond German on this one, it's difficult to see how doing a routine in itself teaches you anything about advanced dancing (as ably defined by both DavidB and Andybroom recently). It just teaches you how to move your body in a pre-defined sequence, surely?
    Have you ever done a routine?

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    I was referring more to Nicky and Adam's comments on the Gold Card assessment system - for example, in this post, Adam says:



    Now admittedly, I may have misunderstood, but from the replies to that thread, it looked to me like Gold-Card applicants are / were assessed based on how well they did a long and complex routine?
    Hi David,
    I think you may indeed have misunderstood. Having looked at this thread (thanks for including it, makes things much easier) Adam's post is talking about the transition to Intermediate/Advanced- otherwise known as getting a blue card (Int/Adv being the next level up from Int and below Adv). There is no mention of gold card assessments- we're working on it, but still no word on gold card requirements

    I think the problem (in comprehension) comes down to vocab used which may and probably does differ from Oz and the UK. Having heard on this forum that you guys don't often do what we refer to as "routines" (ie several dancers doing a synchronised routine like a showcase or cabaret) maybe there has been confusion about the words used (just a possibility). Not a class routine.

    Adam is merely making the point that doing a group routine is a help in preparing for a card assessment as it offers the opportunity to practice more difficult moves with a regular partner within a structured framework. It also gives you a chance to get more individualised attention from a teachers while you are working on the routine. Plus it's my personal experience that just the increase of time spent dancing improves your dancing tenfold (when I did my first routine I went from dancing 1-2 times a week to doing four classes a week plus weekend practices as well.)

    After you've done a routine your dancing will be a lot better- and you'll probably have gotten to know the teacher a lot better during rehearsals (always helps) which will put you in a better position when you go for your card (during freestyle). However, the said assessment would not have anything to do with the routine you had just learnt- merely a good way to practice!

    Hope this helps.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    Have you ever done a routine?
    Nah, I'm trying to give them up, I hear they cause cancer or something....

    Seriously, I'm not quite sure where all the heat is coming from here; I just wanted some clarification on an area, and some definition of what a "Gold Card" meant, as I wasn't aware that there was another stage Beyond Blue. So to speak.

    Sure, my impression (and I could be wrong) is that a routine-focussed exam probably wouldn't be appropriate for most of the advanced dancers in the UK - whoever they are. But all that means is that UK and Aussie styles and dance cultures have some differences. And that's blindingly obvious, again from the "What is Aussie style?" thread.

    In case I haven't been massively clear, I repeat: these are differences, not "better" or "worse", just different. And different is good, it means that we can learn new things from Aussie dancers, and they can learn new things from us, a bit like dance trade I guess.

    So what's the problem with all that? and genuinely

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alice
    { some actual information }

    Hope this helps.
    It does indeed - thanks, that clarifies things a lot.
    Last edited by David Bailey; 9th-February-2006 at 12:06 AM.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Doing a routine teaches you many thinks that assist in your dancing:
    1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
    2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
    3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
    4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
    5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
    6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
    7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
    8.etc....etc...

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    and I did say likely to have mastered
    that likelyhood is exactly what I disputed

    I absolutely agree that routines are not the same as freestyle but doing one does give you a chance - especially if you don't have a regular dance partner - to repeat and work with someone on those moves, skills and technquie in it that one wouldn't other wise get. The other thing that routines give is the time to think about the finer details of the moves and exactly how they are being done.

    taking that skill or move into freestyle is up to the individual - some will, some won't
    I agree.

    actually I would say that the only wayt to test that is by partnering up with an appropriate level dancer - that may be a less advanced dancer it may be and equially advanced dancer or it may be a more advanced dancer. The partner has to be of a level to cope with the move/technique you are using - using an advanced foot work lead on a beginner is not going to work well no matter what the skill of the more advanced dancer.
    And this is where we differ again. There is little challenge in doing a move with a partner of 'appropriate' level unless it means nothing but 'not ABSOLUTE beginner. A good dancer is not (should/can not be) rated by how well he/she dancers with a person of similar or higher level (if that was your definition of appropriate). You recognise them by their ability to cope 'elegantly and safely' in difficult circumstances, such as a follower who has yet to learn to follow or a lead who has yet to learn to lead and does not remember signals.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    Have you ever done a routine?
    So what's the advantages of doing a routine as opposed to geting a partner?

    They both are one-on-one.
    I would assume that with a single partner you can work on stuff you want to and areas that you see flaws in yourselves. (As opposed to being told this is what we are doing and this is how we are doing it.)

    What does a routine gain over a simple partnership?

    {edit}
    Quote Originally Posted by ads
    Doing a routine teaches you many thinks that assist in your dancing:
    1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
    So does working with a partner or teacher or working out a solo(ie one couple) routine/move and how it can be timed with music.

    2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
    ? I would contend this - would it not simply help move to where you should be rather than listening to the lead/follower and acting/reacting accordingly?

    3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
    More time than a a couple get with a private lesson with a teacher? More focused on your dancing rather than getting you to dance like everyone else?

    4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
    ? Really? Might teach better floorcraft and awareness, but I don't see how it would teach anything else better than a couple.

    5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
    True. But with a couple practicing for a competition, they would be working on this aspect as well - and not just to match everyone else, but to go to their own extents.

    6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
    I'll give you that one.

    7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
    Partner appreciation? How?

    8.etc....etc...
    which are???
    Last edited by Gadget; 9th-February-2006 at 12:23 AM.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Nah, I'm trying to give them up, I hear they cause cancer or something....
    *giggle*– lies all lies – try one and you will know the truth

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Seriously, I'm not quite sure where all the heat is coming from here; I just wanted some clarification on an area, and some definition of what a "Gold Card" meant, as I wasn't aware that there was another stage Beyond Blue. So to speak.

    Sure, my impression (and I could be wrong) is that a routine-focussed exam probably wouldn't be appropriate for most of the advanced dancers in the UK - whoever they are. But all that means is that UK and Aussie styles and dance cultures have some differences. And that's blindingly obvious, again from the "What is Aussie style?" thread.

    In case I haven't been massively clear, I repeat: these are differences, not "better" or "worse", just different. And different is good, it means that we can learn new things from Aussie dancers, and they can learn new things from us, a bit like dance trade I guess.

    So what's the problem with all that? and genuinely
    “the heat” as you put it is coming I think from the fact that is that you keep going back to the gold card assessment equals having to do a full performance routine – it has been pointed out that Adam’s post didn’t say that, it has been explained that routines can be used as preparation.

    Currently there is no Gold Card assessment criteria available online so sadly can’t clear up confusion as to what the assessment criteria is.

    So I think the problem for the Aussies here is how many ways do you want us to say it - Performance routines can be used as a way to learn/prepare for gold card assessment – there is also an advanced course that can be done to prepare.


    It would seem that Nicky’s post is the one that has created confusion here – and I would say that sometimes they assess people through a routine – if they want to be assessed but fall apart at the moment of assessment – I had a student who did this – I ended up assessing him in a dance he hadn’t asked me to assess him in – because every time he asked me to assess him on his readiness to move up to intermediate – he would fall apart not even able to the routine from that evenings class.

    I think perhaps you would have been better off aksing specific questions about the Gold card and it’s requirements on the Aussie fourm – as it is an Australian thing and there are many more people there with experience of it to explain

    as a further bit of explanation of what a gold card means it does impact on what level of some competitions you have to enter - if you have a gold card in CMJ Sydney and Ceroc Perth comps you are required to enter at advanced level.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    What does a routine gain over a simple partnership?
    It relieves you of the burden to analyse your own imprefection. You have others to tell you.Less stress with your dance partner when he/she tells you because he/she doesn't need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
    So does working with a partner or teacher or working out a solo(ie one couple) routine/move and how it can be timed with music.

    2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
    ? I would contend this - would it not simply help move to where you should be rather than listening to the lead/follower and acting/reacting accordingly?

    3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
    More time than a a couple get with a private lesson with a teacher? More focused on your dancing rather than getting you to dance like everyone else?

    4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
    ? Really? Might teach better floorcraft and awareness, but I don't see how it would teach anything else better than a couple.

    5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
    True. But with a couple practicing for a competition, they would be working on this aspect as well - and not just to match everyone else, but to go to their own extents.

    6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
    I'll give you that one.

    7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
    Partner appreciation? How?

    8.etc....etc...
    which are???
    Thanks

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    So what's the advantages of doing a routine as opposed to geting a partner?

    They both are one-on-one.
    I would assume that with a single partner you can work on stuff you want to and areas that you see flaws in yourselves. (As opposed to being told this is what we are doing and this is how we are doing it.)

    What does a routine gain over a simple partnership?
    it can be easier to get a partner for a routine than an on going freestyle partner due the fact that it is for a fixed routine and you are taught by teachers and guided through performance finesse

    There are many dancers I would agree to do a routine with – but few I would take on as a freestyle dance partner. I n my experience a freestyle dance partnership requires a much higher level of personal commitment and dedication than a partnership for a single taught routine – also in freestyle partnership – for me at least personality click/gel is very important so that the partnership can really flourish and give both partner the opportunity to contribute and develop

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    1.Helps you appreciate the music more and how you put moves to them.
    So does working with a partner or teacher or working out a solo(ie one couple) routine/move and how it can be timed with music.
    it is an alternative to these options – plus not everyone wants to do choreography or put themselves in the spot light of a solo routine

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    2. Helps you with balance and the importance of precise leading and following so the moves are done correctly.
    ? I would contend this - would it not simply help move to where you should be rather than listening to the lead/follower and acting/reacting accordingly?
    it may be a routine but the bulk of it does need to still be lead and followed

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    3. You get more time with the teacher to correct mistakes and often you hear things that you miss in class.
    More time than a a couple get with a private lesson with a teacher? More focused on your dancing rather than getting you to dance like everyone else?
    it’s an alternative to privates – cheaper in terms of cost per hour – private lesson $50 per hour – routine $110 for 6 x 2 hour sessions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    4. Teaches you the importance of positioning and not to over rotate and the importance of doing the move efficiently.
    ? Really? Might teach better floorcraft and awareness, but I don't see how it would teach anything else better than a couple.
    think you want to finish your sentence here – routines are very good for developing skill in not over rotating and placing to the front – this is very much a performance skill. Can also show you the basics of how to set up moves so that the line/frame/pose you want to display is shown to the audience

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    5. Builds confidence and improves presentation/styling
    True. But with a couple practicing for a competition, they would be working on this aspect as well - and not just to match everyone else, but to go to their own extents.
    it’s a way to build up confidence and presentation skills with out having to go out there all on your own – remember safety in numbers :smile:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    6. it is fun and often re-inspires you with your general dancing
    I'll give you that one.
    you are too kind

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    7.helps with partner appreciation and floorcraft.
    Partner appreciation? How?
    partner appreciation – for the hundredth time you stuff up the move and your partner with a smile says that’s ok lets try it again. Floor craft – having to maintain floor position and move in relation to other couples

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    8.etc....etc...
    which are???
    what you want more?! Than that already listed

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    what you want more?! Than that already listed
    Yup. I'm still not convinced.

    It seems that the argument for them is that it's a 'soft' alternative to finding a dance partner. But I think that this is more to do with the expectations of having a dance partner.

    I think there is a closer(and better) comparison between the routines and a partner to practice with rather than a full blown dance partner

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    It seems that the argument for them is that it's a 'soft' alternative to finding a dance partner. But I think that this is more to do with the expectations of having a dance partner.
    an alternative yes - Soft HARDLEY! especially if you choose to perform/compete as part of the team - while you are personally protected you then have the added responsibility to not only your partner but to you other team mates

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I think there is a closer(and better) comparison between the routines and a partner to practice with rather than a full blown dance partner
    have you ever tried to find either a partner to practise with or dance partner? neither are particulary easy to come by I can assure.

    basically it comes down to the fact that there are benifits from learning and performing (if you choose to) routines. there are also down sides

    but there can also be down sides to partners to practise with and dance partners

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