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Thread: Dance levels: "Card" system?

  1. #101
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Re: the term "advanced":
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    I think I understand why you'd say that, in the context of teaching lead/follow to beginners.

    But this isn't because of anything intrinsically wrong with the concept. I mean, 'beginner', 'intermediate', 'advanced' - what could be simpler and more meaningful than that, just as in lots of other activities?
    Well, my problem with the term is that...
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    It's only because the concept has become completely bastardised in the teaching structures, and polluted with the side issue of hotshotism, that the actual meaning has become largely lost.
    Ah, you've said it for me!

    I think the problem is that Ceroc (UK) don't clearly define dancer levels beyond the dumbass "6 / 12 week" thing, so we're left struggling to define it almost on an individual basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    The solution, rather than to cripple the language by making 'advanced' a politically incorrect term, is to get the teaching structures right, so that, for instance, beginner tension and compression isn't thought of as an advanced topic any more.
    Yeah, but there are (at least) two issues here:
    - Would an (optional) exam / grading system be helpful?
    - What should be taught in Ceroc advanced classes?

    OK, they're related, but they're separate. And I know for a fact that the latter topic has had oodles of discussion already, so let's leave that to the many other threads about that area...

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Yeah, but there are (at least) two issues here:
    - Would an (optional) exam / grading system be helpful?
    - What should be taught in Ceroc advanced classes?

    OK, they're related, but they're separate. And I know for a fact that the latter topic has had oodles of discussion already, so let's leave that to the many other threads about that area...
    Yep, I think we are getting sidetracked a bit (not like this forum at all )

    DJ - time for a poll on the former question perhaps?

    Though this thread has made me think about how we do polls - we tend to have the poll, people vote and then discuss the subject. Having a thread to discuss a subject for a few days, then having a poll, is perhaps a better way of doing things. I know my own perspective has shifted a bit on reading through this thread and hearing different perspectives (esp from those who have experienced the card system.)

  3. #103
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    Yep, I think we are getting sidetracked a bit (not like this forum at all )

    DJ - time for a poll on the former question perhaps?
    Done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    Though this thread has made me think about how we do polls - we tend to have the poll, people vote and then discuss the subject. Having a thread to discuss a subject for a few days, then having a poll, is perhaps a better way of doing things. I know my own perspective has shifted a bit on reading through this thread and hearing different perspectives (esp from those who have experienced the card system.)
    Maybe you should do a poll about how we do polls.

  4. #104
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    one thing that seems to run through everyone's ideology (sp?) is that more teaching wouldn't go amiss with reference to frame, tension etc etc and this is the part I have a problem with. To Me if you want a class to involve this often detailed technique type 'stuff' then it would be more suited to a more formal environment...as in one that utilises a grading system.
    I don't see that at all. Adding foundation technique to regular classes is very easily done, and at all levels, it has been part of my classes in Glasgow, but also in Inverness, which has only been opened for 3 months, and the results (both in attendance and in quality of dancers) are very clear! There is no need to segregate dancers, or indeed to give them a Gold Badge. Teaching them the right stuff at all levels, dancing with them and leading by example works much better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    We all know that in an average class there are many people who turn up purely for the social aspect and so have absolutely no interest in the theories behind all that posh-talk and to 'inflict' all this information upon them would surely scare them off.
    I see many classes where people are happy to dance with their friends, have reached a comfortable (for them) level of dancing and probably don't want to invest any more effort in learning more. For those dancers, the drip-fed approach works best, no extra effort involved on their part, and sometimes, a simple thing clicks and they progress to the 'avid learner' stage.
    I see no evidence that numbers drop when you introduce good technique in classes (quite the reverse) but I have seen drops in attendance (and beginners retention) when levels have been separated and formalised.
    It is important to also remember that without all the social dancers, most of our top venues would be financially bankrupt, so we would lose half of our current nights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    So when is the final date for the Amir cloning proceedure then? And can Scotland book one now...ta.
    That's an easy one to answer, Amir was teaching at the Beach Ballroom last November (shame you missed it) and will be back in June for another week-end of top workshops.
    In the past year, we also have seen the likes of Stefano and Alexandra (from Tango in action), Marc Forster, David & Lily Barker, Simon Borland, Emma Sabin and more.... who have all brought their brilliant expertise to Scotland, and all of us who attended their workshops (dancers & teachers) have learnt and improved as a result!
    Franck.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Very eloquently put Franck!
    Nice to see actual proof that the ideas discussed above - do work in classes.

    Martin

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    That's an easy one to answer, Amir was teaching at the Beach Ballroom last November (shame you missed it) and will be back in June for another week-end of top workshops.
    In the past year, we also have seen the likes of Stefano and Alexandra (from Tango in action), Marc Forster, David & Lily Barker, Simon Borland, Emma Sabin and more.... who have all brought their brilliant expertise to Scotland, and all of us who attended their workshops (dancers & teachers) have learnt and improved as a result!
    All excellent top quality teachers in that line up Franck and it's a shame Melanie and I didn't get a chance to do all the classes they put on, wer're sooooo busy nowadays ...However, (and there's always a 'however' ), I do notice that they're all imports!

    I think Chris A has already mentioned that if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to? When I did my CTA, there was not one mention of any of this stuff and I like to think I'm a relatively capable dancer and have a relatively decent understanding of it all, but then, (and I don't mean to sound insulting ) when you see some of the teachers that get through...you have to question if they know their left hand from their right hand. Surely tension, compression, frame, connection and all of those increasingly popular buzz words wouldn't stand a chance of coming across in a clear coherent way

    I really do think that if you want more of the technical stuff it is best suited to a more formal class. Formality it seems though, normally comes at a price and while the modern jive world continues along it's informal path won't it always look like a commercial enterprise rather than a dance class? And if it isn't...then why the price rise? The product is the same as it's been in the past 3 years. When i started, (3 years ago) it cost a fiver, now it's 7 quid. Admittedly I'm lucky enough to live in Scotland and there are some great teachers up here and so overall I guess we get value for money, but can that be said UK-wide? *slightly off topic but there's a wee-link in there somewhere*

    j

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to? When I did my CTA, there was not one mention of any of this stuff and ...

    ... when you see some of the teachers that get through...you have to question if they know their left hand from their right hand. Surely tension, compression, frame, connection and all of those increasingly popular buzz words wouldn't stand a chance of coming across in a clear coherent way
    Hmm, the words "cat", "bag", "let" and "out" come strangely to mind reading this...

  8. #108
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    All excellent top quality teachers in that line up Franck and it's a shame Melanie and I didn't get a chance to do all the classes they put on, wer're sooooo busy nowadays ...However, (and there's always a 'however' ), I do notice that they're all imports!
    Of course they're all imports, that's why I invited them over, Scotland exports its own expertise already, and as you mentioned we have some excellent teachers up here who are shaping the future of MJ.
    A few years back I took the view that if any of us (teachers and regular dancers) were to improve, we would need to learn from teachers that were better than us. This approach has benefited not just myself, but all the teachers who realised how much there was to learn, and gradually (and yes, it is a slow trickle down process) the standard of dancing (and teaching) has improved significantly.
    The only regret I have is that many teachers (and this is a UK-wide issue) either don't want to change the way they teach / dance, or think they know it all already. this makes the 'revamp' you mention much harder to bring about on a national scale!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    I think Chris A has already mentioned that if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to?
    Ceroc UK is continually changing their approach to teaching, teacher training and many of those technical concepts are now part of the curriculum and I expect it will take a few years still before the impact is felt nationally. Pretty much all the Ceroc teachers on this Forum are already ahead of the evolution curve, and at every teacher update, they share their experiences with all of us to improve standards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    I really do think that if you want more of the technical stuff it is best suited to a more formal class. Formality it seems though, normally comes at a price and while the modern jive world continues along it's informal path won't it always look like a commercial enterprise rather than a dance class? And if it isn't...then why the price rise? The product is the same as it's been in the past 3 years. When i started, (3 years ago) it cost a fiver, now it's 7 quid.
    I believe that Ceroc is both a provider of dance classes / workshops & events and a Commercial enterprise. If a dance class doesn't make any money (or indeed runs at a loss) then eventually, they close and everyone suffers from fewer opportunities to dance learn.
    I have personally run many nights at a loss for several years (Aberdeen in the early days, Perth, etc...) and would not be able to subsidize them without a few established profitable nights. 3 years ago, the price was 6 pounds, and due to inflation, venue costs rising, Teachers' pay rise (and they really deserve it), petrol and advertising costs, etc... the increase was necessary. The product is not quite the same as it was 3 years, ago, but then again, I now pay almost 50% more for the same diesel as I did 2 years ago, so go figure!

    In another thread, AndyMcGregor mentions that Modern Jive is splitting into 2 styles, I would disagree and postulate that Modern Jive is simply evolving, and as teachers become better and more experienced, the versatility of the dance is showing more and more.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    (and I don't mean to sound insulting ) ~snip~
    I think that you failed there....

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    I think that you failed there....
    People think it, I say it. Jive Brummie, Conversational Hand Grenade....maybe that should be under my user name...

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Hi all,

    I taught and assessed for the popular Aussie Blue & Gold Card Systems, so thought I could add my own observations.

    There are loads of Ceroc / Modern Jive venues across Australia for people to learn and progress from beginners to intermediate, and then there are a few venues that really focus on the next levels. If you dont like it, you simply go to one of the other multitude of venues. By the time you finish complaining about the advanced class, you could have instead gone down the road to a different class..

    People like it.

    A lot of good dancers come BACK after years in the wilderness when these nights became popular.

    But I have been away from Australia for a year now - so I cant give a recent update.

    I reckon for life in general, in anything we do, its worth trying harder, trying new and interesting things - dont sit back and moan about the systems - these are always evolving - just give em a try, and see if they work for you.

    In my eyes (my opinion only) Aussie Blue and Gold card classes are simply a long term experiment (long term suggests they are tending to work) aimed at finding something better for the jiveaholics.

    Challenge Question: Whats the UK jive scene doing to push people to the next level? Is it working? Is it coordinated or sporadic? Is it centralised or regional? What are you guys trying in your areas?

    e.g. London as you know has just tried kicking off the weekly Wednesday Advanced class (there is no beginners class on these nights at all)- so full points to them for having a go - lets see how it goes.

    I dont know the answer to the UK scene, but I know that the market demands better and better things.... If you have a good system, lets try it!

    And on another note - I had a great time up in Glasgow for the BFG late last year, it was a brilliant event - thanks for having me as part of it.
    Cheers,

    Simon Borland (seem to be known as Aussie Simon, fair enuf)
    p.s. if you are ever in London - make it a Tuesday night, and come and see ISH for yourselves - it is rocking!

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    From that I assume that the card system is reasonably well-accepted in Australia?
    Keeping in mind that only one dance company in Australia is using this card system .

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    I think Chris A has already mentioned that if this structure was to come into place, Ceroc UK would need to revamp their teaching approach and ensure that all of their teachers are up to scratch. Is this possible and could it be maintained? And would they even want to? When I did my CTA, there was not one mention of any of this stuff and I like to think I'm a relatively capable dancer and have a relatively decent understanding of it all, but then, (and I don't mean to sound insulting ) when you see some of the teachers that get through...you have to question if they know their left hand from their right hand. Surely tension, compression, frame, connection and all of those increasingly popular buzz words wouldn't stand a chance of coming across in a clear coherent way
    Did anyone else reading this think that it's probably the teachers who should have a "Dance/Teaching Levels Card System"?

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Did anyone else reading this think that it's probably the teachers who should have a "Dance/Teaching Levels Card System"?
    This is a good point Andy and one that would certainly need addressing if the dance card system ever came into being. To ensure the best progression was achieved at punter-level, the teacher would have to also be at a predesignated level of ability...wouldn't they?

    Doesn't Aussie Ceroc have a system in place that have some teachers purely for beginners, some for intermediates and so on. I like that idea.

    J.

    p.s. am still in favour of the card system...it stops people wasting their money.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    This is a good point Andy and one that would certainly need addressing if the dance card system ever came into being. To ensure the best progression was achieved at punter-level, the teacher would have to also be at a predesignated level of ability...wouldn't they?

    Doesn't Aussie Ceroc have a system in place that have some teachers purely for beginners, some for intermediates and so on. I like that idea.

    J.

    p.s. am still in favour of the card system...it stops people wasting their money.
    Although they don't carry cards, UK Ceroc teachers can only teach beginners classes until they've passed their intermediate instructors course.

    Will

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    ...
    Doesn't Aussie Ceroc have a system in place that have some teachers purely for beginners, some for intermediates and so on. I like that idea.
    It's not official, but only some of the teachers (not including me (yet ) ) are asked to teach the Intermediate/Advanced classes.

    (This is for Ceroc and Modern Jive, there are many other (fabulous) companies in Australia)

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will
    Although they don't carry cards, UK Ceroc teachers can only teach beginners classes until they've passed their intermediate instructors course.

    Will
    Aha! I'm glad you've mentioned this because I know this doesn't always happen.

    j.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    An addendum to this thread, to give a bit more information: apart from the blue card for intermediate / advanced dancers, there's a gold card for Really Good Dancers, or something.

    Details on this thread, but I saw that one of the gold card requirements is (was?) to demonstrate one of those verrrry looonng and verrry complex routines.

    Quite a surprise to me - from my point-of-view, that's more a test of memory and practise than of dancing ability. If nothing else (and assuming that this criterion is still active), it does seem to indicate one of the key Aussie style / UK style differentiators being "complexity of routine" as an indicator of dancing ability.

    What do others think?

    (Note: I'm making no judgements, just saying what I think from my point-of-view, so let's try to avoid a slanging match)

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    An addendum to this thread, to give a bit more information: apart from the blue card for intermediate / advanced dancers, there's a gold card for Really Good Dancers, or something.

    Details on this thread, but I saw that one of the gold card requirements is (was?) to demonstrate one of those verrrry looonng and verrry complex routines.

    Quite a surprise to me - from my point-of-view, that's more a test of memory and practise than of dancing ability. If nothing else (and assuming that this criterion is still active), it does seem to indicate one of the key Aussie style / UK style differentiators being "complexity of routine" as an indicator of dancing ability.

    What do others think?

    (Note: I'm making no judgements, just saying what I think from my point-of-view, so let's try to avoid a slanging match)
    I'm not too sure what the requirements for a gold card is... but I do know that they were assessing for them the night I got my blue card. Which would infer that it was based on freestyle (assessment for both cards involves dancing with certain mainstream teachers for a song during freestyle). I'll try to find out from CMJ what the gold requirements are though- might be interesting

    However, for the blue card assessment, part of it is (usually) that you can successfully complete an I/A routine- so it's usually assessed in the freestyle immediately after an I/A class. At least that's when I did mine. So- you do the class in the intermediate line and then you have to be able to lead/follow it competently with the assessor afterwards.

    I like the card system as it gives me something to work towards, as well as an idea of my progression. I like having the feedback. Those who don't like exams or who don't want to go for a card for whatever reason don't have to get one- I/A classes are not taught at every venue anyway so it would be quite easy to happily dance away without one. The only time you might "need" a card is to do an I/A group routine for a ball or other performance- and that's really a safety issue more than anything else.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    An addendum to this thread, to give a bit more information: apart from the blue card for intermediate / advanced dancers, there's a gold card for Really Good Dancers, or something.
    it is just another development step

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Details on this thread, but I saw that one of the gold card requirements is (was?) to demonstrate one of those verrrry looonng and verrry complex routines.
    actually the criteria in the first post are for the blue card - and the routine refered to is an I/A class routine - generally class routines consist of 3- 6 moves depending on how exactly you defiene a move that is

    the cerocwiki is sadly lacking any information regarding gold cards

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