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Thread: Dance levels: "Card" system?

  1. #81
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruella
    Nice to know you're not an authority on everything ESG, shows you're human after all.
    I'm not an authority on anything, I'm afraid...

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    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Any going on in London? (which is widely acknowleged by all Forumites to be the centre of the dance universe... )
    Funnily enough, I only know of one - and that was the full Ecuador routine, taught by our visiting Aussie teacher

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I often hear beginners apologising for being a beginner, showing me their badge as though I had not seen it before I asked them, and expressing the view that they will never be as good as the regulars. I ask them if they are enjoying themselves, and the answer is usually "Yes". I tell them that is what matters, and, if they keep coming they will improve. I usually chat whilst doing a basket walk-around, and can honestly tell them that they have done at least one move that is not a beginner move without a lesson in it.
    I do not think this forum is representative of the attitudes and views of the average newcomer. I think too many would be scared away by any hint of a test or examination, and too many would be carried away by achieving a grade.
    In my experience self-regulation works well enough in normal class nights.

  4. #84
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde!
    { snip good points }

    However, all of the pros of having a blue card are negatives for anyone that doesn't have one.
    Yes, I can see that it could turn into a status thing.

    I dunno. I'd hate for Ceroc UK to push the concept that there are Good and Bad dancers; one of the main strengths is that it's a nice democratic scene, where anyone is encouraged to dance promiscuously with anyone else, both socially and in the classes.

    On the other hand, I would like to see advanced (or "technique") classes being taught as standard. And for those classes to be effective, there really has to be a better criterion than "6 weeks dancing" to do them, otherwise they won't be effective.

    (BTW, I don't believe most of the "advanced" classes taught in a few London venues are what I'm talking about here - they mainly seem to be about more complex moves than things like dance technique)

    So it seems to me that we need some assessment mechanism. Which seems to indicate some sort of examination system, even if only at the "dance for 1 track with the teacher" level. Ideally, this will increase the level of aspiration for dancers. Which means more lovely dance partners for me

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I do not think this forum is representative of the attitudes and views of the average newcomer.
    Absolutely - but we're not talking about newcomers. Even in Australia, Blue Cards are optional and are aimed at intermediate / advanced levels of dancer. Which, by the recent "How well do you dance" poll, seems to reflect the largest group of dancers on the forum. So it's legit to talk about things that are relevant to ourselves, surely?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I think too many would be scared away by any hint of a test or examination, and too many would be carried away by achieving a grade.
    In my experience self-regulation works well enough in normal class nights.
    I guess my problem is that I'm not happy with the structure of normal class nights. Possibly the answer is "Go away then", but I'd prefer to see MJ class nights cater for the likes of me.

    I've seen some lovely dancers leave MJ because they're not getting any more out of it. If Ceroc is to be anything more than a half-way house to "proper dancing", I think it needs to innovate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious
    Funnily enough, I only know of one - and that was the full Ecuador routine, taught by our visiting Aussie teacher
    Argh! Argh! 'Nam flashback...
    Last edited by David Bailey; 15th-January-2006 at 08:51 PM.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    On the other hand, I would like to see advanced (or "technique") classes being taught as standard. And for those classes to be effective, there really has to be a better criterion than "6 weeks dancing" to do them, otherwise they won't be effective.
    I am still in favour of advanced technique being drip-fed to classes, where it can be.

    ... but we're not talking about newcomers. Even in Australia, Blue Cards are optional and are aimed at intermediate / advanced levels of dancer. Which, by the recent "How well do you dance" poll, seems to reflect the largest group of dancers on the forum. So it's legit to talk about things that are relevant to ourselves, surely?
    Always, but changing the ethos affects everybody. I still believe that the "medals" ethos is one of the things that helped to kill off ballroom. There was still the alleged freedom just to learn for enjoyment, but the best dancers were siphoned off into different classes.

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    (BTW, I don't believe most of the "advanced" classes taught in a few London venues are what I'm talking about here - they mainly seem to be about more complex moves than things like dance technique)
    How do you know!? I'm not arguing, because I haven't been to one either - just wondering though...

  7. #87
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    How do you know!? I'm not arguing, because I haven't been to one either - just wondering though...
    You want actual knowledge now? I've managed to survive so far on bluff... Blimey, that's a toughie.

    OK, I don't know, but that's what I've been told by reliable sources (for example, the demo or taxi dancer at such classes) happens in a couple of places. I will, of course, happily sell out said sources for rep.

    Actually, how many advanced classes are there in London now?

    By "advanced", I'd say "simultaneous to but separate from intermediate classes" - I only know of a couple, unless we're including the Jive Bar? Can anyone list them for me?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I still believe that the "medals" ethos is one of the things that helped to kill off ballroom. There was still the alleged freedom just to learn for enjoyment, but the best dancers were siphoned off into different classes.
    I think disco "killed off" ballroom (and most other partner dances, for that matter), I don't think the exam structure did.

    Arguably, because ballroom became such a minority interest, the only people doing it were interested solely in the exam side rather than the social side - so yes, from that perspective, exams didn't help create a sociable atmosphere, as those people had more-or-less fixed partners.

    Besides, is ballroom dead? Personally I just think it's going through a quiet phase. It's been around for a few centuries, a 30-year hiatus isn't much in comparison.

    I guess it's a choice. Do we want to:
    - Keep Ceroc classes at the current level, keep the current atmosphere, and just accept that no-one's going to be able to easily progress past a certain point by doing MJ? So we'll lose some of the best dancers to other forms, and it won't ever be taken seriously by other forms
    - Change the structure, with the risk that a possible change in ethos could lose some of the uniquely friendly atmosphere?

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Besides, is ballroom dead? Personally I just think it's going through a quiet phase. It's been around for a few centuries, a 30-year hiatus isn't much in comparison.
    We-el, unless in Ballroom you count Pavannes, Galliards and the like (and I was listening to just one such only this afternoon) I think most 'official' Ballroom dances are 20th Century inventions. And not that early 20th C. either...

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    We-el, unless in Ballroom you count Pavannes, Galliards and the like (and I was listening to just one such only this afternoon) I think most 'official' Ballroom dances are 20th Century inventions. And not that early 20th C. either...
    "Coupled dancing" emerged in the 15th Century I believe, that'll be those galliard things. And the Waltz has been around since about 1700.

    Yes, most individual dances have a limited lifespan - but "ballroom dancing" itself or possibly redefining it as "partner dancing to music", has been around for oohh, ages, hasn't it?

    Moving goalposts? Moi?

    Anyway, this is getting off-topic; where are all these advanced classes in London?

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Jive Bar (Russell Sq) is now running an advanced class every Wednesday - intermediate class followed by advanced followed by freestyle. I shall go along at some point over the next couple of weeks (need to check taxi rota first).

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc?
    You are correct.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    ...
    In my experience self-regulation works well enough in normal class nights.
    From what I've seen/heard, it's the ladies who are affected much more by guys attempting classes too tricky for them, and so I'd be much more swayed by ladies saying that self-regulation is just fine. (More experienced guy with less experienced girl generally means that you do different stuff, less experienced guy with more experienced girl is more likely to result in injury).

    Also, it's not for "normal class nights" that we use the blue card system, it's for intermediate/advanced class nights.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Most of the folk arguing the "Pros" of cards seem to be under the impression that the majority of dancers want to learn how to dance or how to get better at dancing.
    I think that this is a false assumption: the learning part is just a side-effect and necessary thing to go through to achieve the main aim which is simply to dance {and have fun doing it}.

    I don't think that you should screen people for admittance to a workshop, but the contents and what is expected of attendees should be clearly outlined. It is then up to the attendees to self-police: I don't think that the teacher should dumb-down the workshop because a few folk have ideas above their ability.

    I find it quite "ironic" (perhaps the wrong word) that most of the technical and technique based classes at the BFG were marked as 'beginners' and most of the move, memory and twisty classes were marked as 'advanced'. Personally, I'm pleased with (and agree with) this: All the stuff Franck was teaching about connection and movement is not the sole property of the "advanced" dancer.

    With regard to "advanced" techniques and stuff being put into normal classes, I think that it is. Every intermediate class I can remember {ok, I admit: a poor qualifier } has had at least one point where the teacher has said "more adventurous among you may want to try this" or "If you can, try a double spin" or "Men, this is your opportunity to spin if you can"... etc. Optional extras in style. There is normally some advice on technique as well along the lines of "if you try to keep contact while..." or "your hand should brush past..." or "this bit should be sharper...." etceteras.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronde!
    I'm a non-blue-card holder, mainly because I live 3.5 hours from the nearest place I can be assessed, and I guess I have a few thoughts.
    Good point - If you dance for pleasure and solely to dance, then what a waste of time and resources it would be to actively seek out a person/event that would assess you.

    When you are hauled out of the masses into the 'blue line', what do you think that the reaction of those about you at that time would be? I'm getting images of Harry Potter's entrance to Hogwarts where Draco says "you don't want to be messing with that sort."

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I'd welcome a grading system, however simple or basic, because although I'm happy to dance with anybody in freestyle (where I can avoid drops/tricky moves if necessary), there are times in class when I've been hurt/unable to do a move/made nervous because I've had to dance with people who should really have stayed in the beginners' class a while longer. And this is just at intermediate level, not even int/advanced.

    That's not me being a "hotshot" - it's self-preservation. I've paid my money like everyone else, so I don't expect to have to leave the floor during the lesson because I've got hurt or don't feel safe dancing with certain partners. A simple grading system would prevent that sort of thing.

    Like I said, I enjoy dancing with people of all ability levels in freestyle, but in a class, where I have no control over the moves we are asked to do, it's a different matter.

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    Registered User timbp's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    OK, Why does it make it easier to learn the move if the people you are dancing with are judged "capable of doing the routine"?
    Take one example: spinning.

    If a girl cannot do a balanced spin, the guy cannot really try a simultaneous spin. He needs to watch the girl and catch her if necessary (and make absolutely sure there is nothing in his lead causing the imbalance). But if the girl can spin well, the guy can try spinning at the same time. And the first few times he does, his lead for the spin will probably not be as good -- so ideally the girl should be able compensate for a poor lead while the guy learns how to lead her and spin himself.

    Girls in the blue card line don't have to worry that the guy is going to push them off balance when he spins. Guys can do their spins knowing they don't have to watch the girl in case she unbalances.

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    Registered User Jeremy's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I danced in Sydney for over a year without hearing much about the card system here. Only some of the venues run the intermediate/advanced classes so its only those venues that have the different lines. As such the card system is really an optional system you can get into if you want. I think the biggest benefit is to get individual feedback on your dancing each time an assessment is made.

    When it comes to freestyle there really has been no issue of who to dance with. A blue/gold card is something that just goes in a wallet or somewhere at home to fish out when a routine or IA/advanced class comes up. Most of us enjoy dancing with beginners & intermediates. In fact, just a general statement - most of us just enjoy dancing The card(s) just tell those who are preparing classes and workshops that we have a certain expected ability (eg can lead a lady in a double spin without getting her off balance) so those skills only need to be briefly touched on in those classes and workshops as a reminder that than focused on as a new skill.

    I think it needs to be considered, how important would you going to make this system. Will you be telling everyone about it, forcing people to get assessed, providing information pamplets that get given to everyone at the door, etc or will it be a more background system that if people ask they will be told about (kinda like it is in Sydney at the moment).

    Whether a separate class line is implemented or not in a venue is a separate issue to whether there is an assessment system in place. The assessment system can still be used for workshop/advanced class requirements. And routine requirements too for those lucky enough to have local routines being taught.


    The structure of the night is still:
    Beginner Class (one rotation)
    Freestyle
    Second Class*
    Freestyle

    where the second class consists of:
    Beginner Progression (one rotation), Intromediate (one rotation), Intermediate (one rotation), Intermediate-Advanced (blue card and non-blue card rotations), or Advanced (blue-card and gold card rotations)

    Often a venue will hold more than one second class in another room. Usually this is paired:

    Beginner Progression & Intromediate
    Beginner Progression & Intermediate
    Beginner Progression & Intermediate-Advanced
    Beginner Progression & Special Getting your Blue Card & Advanced

    In most venues the intermediate second class dominates with the occassional intromediate (1/month) or intermediate-advanced (1/month) depending on the average level of dancers at that venue.

    Willoughby (home of Ceroc in Sydney) does things a little differently, having 1 intermediate class per month with the rest Intermediate-Advanced and the occassional Advanced class (& getting your blue card) (1/quarter?)


    I'm certainly for the system. I think it works fairly well here in Sydney. When I eventually make it over to the UK (my unit is still on the market... hurry up and sell!!) I'd certainly be willing to participate in a similar system. I'd like to teach some choreographed routines when I get there so will probably do some informal assessment with the people who want to learn them depending how difficult the routines are (unless a system is already in place).

  18. #98
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Most of the folk arguing the "Pros" of cards seem to be under the impression that the majority of dancers want to learn how to dance or how to get better at dancing.
    Not really, in my case - that's just what I want. If I were involved in the business, It'd be different, I'd have to actually prove or show a demand.

    Having said that, I think there is a demand for "improve your dancing" classes. But I can't prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I find it quite "ironic" (perhaps the wrong word) that most of the technical and technique based classes at the BFG were marked as 'beginners' and most of the move, memory and twisty classes were marked as 'advanced'. Personally, I'm pleased with (and agree with) this: All the stuff Franck was teaching about connection and movement is not the sole property of the "advanced" dancer.


    I agree - I'm not sure that "advanced" is ever helpful as a label.

    Hmmm.... I think maybe an "exams?" poll could be useful; in fact, this thread should probably have been a poll to start with

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy
    The card(s) just tell those who are preparing classes and workshops that we have a certain expected ability (eg can lead a lady in a double spin without getting her off balance)
    Off-topic I know, but what is it with Australians and double-spinning? Some of the classiest dancers I know (CeeCee, ZW, Miss Conduct, etc.) have never done these...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy
    I'd like to teach some choreographed routines when I get there
    Burn him!!

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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I'm not sure that "advanced" is ever helpful as a label.
    I think I understand why you'd say that, in the context of teaching lead/follow to beginners.

    But this isn't because of anything intrinsically wrong with the concept. I mean, 'beginner', 'intermediate', 'advanced' - what could be simpler and more meaningful than that, just as in lots of other activities?

    It's only because the concept has become completely bastardised in the teaching structures, and polluted with the side issue of hotshotism, that the actual meaning has become largely lost.

    Just as there are simple moves that beginners can learn, and more difficult moves that would rightly be classed as more advanced, there are beginner lead/follow concepts, which have to be taught and learned before more advanced ones can be taught and learned. Here's an example:

    A beginner lead/follow concept might be the simple 'compression before stepping back, tension before stepping forward' that we all know and love. A more advanced lead/follow concept is that of being able to maintain the resistance through, for example, an assisted spin, so that the lead can slow the spin down, speed it up, or even stop it half way, and reverse it. This is of course much more difficult - the only person I've ever seen teach it is Amir.

    The problem is that there isn't enough teaching of the beginner versions of things things such as lead/follow that makes it possible to develop towards the more advanced ones.

    The solution, rather than to cripple the language by making 'advanced' a politically incorrect term, is to get the teaching structures right, so that, for instance, beginner tension and compression isn't thought of as an advanced topic any more.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    The problem is that there isn't enough teaching of the beginner versions of things things such as lead/follow that makes it possible to develop towards the more advanced ones.

    The solution, rather than to cripple the language by making 'advanced' a politically incorrect term, is to get the teaching structures right, so that, for instance, beginner tension and compression isn't thought of as an advanced topic any more.

    Hi Chris,

    That is absolutely bang on in my opinion!

    Beginner fundamentals of skills such as lead/follow, compression, Frame - aren't that hard to learn imho - most people possess the physical abilities to do this. However, how are they suppose to learn/appreciate this whole new scope of dancing, if no one teaches them the fundamentals! (Please note - I say "beginner" levels of learning here.)

    If the beginner fundamentals as describe above are taught to the poplace - I think everyone will agree that the standard of dance overall will really improve! Also, the beginner rentention rate is improve dramatically as well. Beginners will enjoy Leroc/Ceroc at a whole new level, and see that there truely is a progression path dance wise, and not just move after move after move.

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