Dance levels: "Card" system?

[El Salsero Gringo]

perhaps the teachers who do not regularly and comprehensively cover technical teaching are *under*-estimating interest. If you ask someone whether they want to learn technical stuff, they would probably go "? no way, I just dance for fun" - but if you asked them if they wanted to improve their dancing...

No, I don't think those teachers are underestimating the interest. How many dancers at Finchley want technical lessons in lead-and-follow, footwork, or frame, for example? People *saying* they want to improve their dancing is a far cry from them being arsed to do anything about it - even something relatively minor like paying more attention in a class. Or practicing a move after the class. If there's this big cloud of people wanting so desperately to improve, why arent they flocking to the more technical teachers, and the more advanced classes that go on?

[LMC]

I'm thinking of the difference between people who actively go and seek out the information they think they need and the people who would quite like to know but aren't aware of the need or need stuff "fed" to them in the regular course of lessons/events.

Franck's approach is a case in point. In an entire weekend's dancing at the BFG (where freestyles were open to anyone, not just those who had booked on the workshops) I only had ONE bad dance (bouncy hands). The beginners I danced with had limited moves and technique, but there were no grippers or yankers among them.

As a second example: I stopped going to Chesham partly because of an epidemic of grippers - it was just too far to go to be made miserable. Since Gordon has taken over Friday evening teaching, the incidence dropped dramatically between visits a couple of months apart - because he mentions thumbs and the lack of use of same frequently.

In my experience of venues, Finchley is particularly poor in the number of people not paying attention and talking in class. I don't know how Carole puts up with it (the Stevenage teacher has said that he doesn't, on the rare occasions he teaches there!).

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm thinking of the difference between people who actively go and seek out the information they think they need and the people who would quite like to know but aren't aware of the need or need stuff "fed" to them in the regular course of lessons/events.

...{snip lots of interesting stuff, but of which I'm not certain of the relevance} ...

As far as I can tell, if someone by nature doesn't have the interest to "seek out" basic technique, then they're not going to be motivated or helped by giving them colour-coded cards - very much the opposite. I think that kind of person is in a majority at Ceroc.

There *is* a development path - both within Ceroc, and parallel to it - and those who have the slightest motivation have no difficulty in finding it. The rest don't want to be helped to be better - so I think they should be just left in peace.

[LMC]

People who don't want to get better can surely be left in peace. It's a shame that so many of them are apparently unaware of their own limitations and insist on trying to perform complicated and potentially dangerous moves and even more of a pity that some of them cause pain. Unfortunately, that's off topic, so I'll try to bring it back to the card system.

I never said I was "for" colour coded cards and agree that they would be demotivating. I specifically said that I am against dividing a class into "lines" based on ability. But I am "for" some kind of assessment of ability for advanced classes and for some workshops. If people are happy dancing at their current level, then that's fine - but they should be aware that access to the more interesting and exciting stuff requires a bit more effort on their part.

Perhaps my previous posts are not clear, but I am against any "division" within the current format. "Everything" on a regular freestyle night should be open to anyone who wants to have a go - and reasonably within the ability of anyone who wants to have a go. Which means that some moves have to be restricted to advanced classes/workshops - as some drops and most aerials already are.

The corollary is that an advanced class, IMO, should not be offered as open access to anyone who wishes to attend. Just as there is a beginners review class during intermediate class, perhaps there could be an intermediate review class during the advanced class at the Jive Bar - perhaps there is, I haven't been yet (but intend to out of curiosity). I like Tessa's idea of a monthly workshop for people who want to make the 'leap'.

[David Bailey]

No, I don't think those teachers are underestimating the interest. How many dancers at Finchley want technical lessons in lead-and-follow, footwork, or frame, for example?

Seriously? Maybe a dozen I can think of - 20 at the very outside. If you said "would you want technical lessons in lead-and-follow, footwork, or frame?", probably only half that.

But LMC's point about how you market something is relevant I think - if you said to that same group "Would you like to learn how to dance like the experts?" or something, you're more likely to get interest.

Ultimately, developing dance styles isn't for everyone, but the very fact that some venues are (patchily) doing this indicates that there is some demand for it.

If there's this big cloud of people wanting so desperately to improve, why arent they flocking to the more technical teachers, and the more advanced classes that go on?

Because they're not well-publicised or marketed. Which is one of the things that the Ceroc organisation does superbly - look at Storm for example. If even a quarter of the marketing effort for Storm was put into advanced class marketing, I'm sure a demand would be created.

But, yes, that's just my opinion.

[David Bailey]

I've done a bit more reading on this from comments on the www.cerocforum.com threads about the system, and even a bit of thinking about it.

It seems clear (for example, in this thread that there's a bit of emotion (!) generated from the "blue card / non-blue card line" system in classes. So, let's not do it that way, I don't think we need to import extra resentment and accusations of elitism, we're perfectly capable of generating enough of that ourselves.

But I still think the concept of an exam at "some point" to be able to do "some type of advanced class" is a good idea - note how vaguely I word this

[Baruch]

But I still think the concept of an exam at "some point" to be able to do "some type of advanced class" is a good idea - note how vaguely I word this

The problem is that in order to implement somthing like this, people need to move beyond vague ideas to specifics. That's when the arguments and resentment kick in. I think this would happen with any system, and there will always be cries of "Elitism!" and people who will be unhappy because they don't make the grade.

Personally, I'm still undecided whether or not I'd support a grading system, but that's pretty academic anyway as I'm not involved in the world of MJ teaching. I can see both sides of the argument.

[Jive Brummie]

There are obviously pro's and con's for the card system, (I've already stated I'm pro'), but one thing that seems to run through everyone's ideology (sp?) is that more teaching wouldn't go amiss with reference to frame, tension etc etc and this is the part I have a problem with. To Me if you want a class to involve this often detailed technique type 'stuff' then it would be more suited to a more formal environment...as in one that utilises a grading system. We all know that in an average class there are many people who turn up purely for the social aspect and so have absolutely no interest in the theories behind all that posh-talk and to 'inflict' all this information upon them would surely scare them off. I also think that if you were to include it...don't waste to much time on it with beginners as there aren't enough people who can explain it clear enough and so they wouldn't 'get-it' and if you do it with intermediate's...drop the 4th move as time seems to be of the essence.

I guess it's one of the many catch 22 situations. Joe punter wants formal teaching but in an informal way that won't confuse or baffle and will maintain their enjoyment....

So when is the final date for the Amir cloning proceedure then? And can Scotland book one now...ta.

j.

[Night Owl]

Being new to Ceroc I wouldn`t be in favour of the card system

The thing i really love apart from the dancing is the fact its fun,there is no pressure to do set pieces as in ball room etc ok there are all the moves to learn but no pressure to have a set routine,as i for one don`t have the memory for this it suits me fine
Yes i can see the point in not allowing people to do things too advanced for them but this should be down to the indivdual teachers etc to point it out to people ,gently that they may not be ready for these moves /classes etc yet.
In my short time in ceroc i have seen plenty of people who probably consider them selves as very experienced ok they have all the moves off to a t but absaloutly no rhythm so in a grading sytem would this be taken into account and be held against them
Every one wants to be a better dancer but exams etc would take the fun out of it

Franck has a much better idea with all his Focus on workshops.BFG. etc

apart from any thing else how are people to improve if they can`t dance with better dancers

any way enough ranting

[Baruch]

Every one wants to be a better dancer but exams etc would take the fun out of it

I don't see why. After all, nobody would be forced to go for a blue card (or whatever system is used). Those who want to improve can be assessed and move up a level when they're ready, while those who are happy as they are could stay at the level with which they are comfortable. I don't see how that would affect people's enjoyment.

apart from any thing else how are people to improve if they can`t dance with better dancers

Nobody has said anything about people not being able to dance with better dancers. The card system, as I understand it, is only used for classes, to ensure that only those who are of sufficient ability do the more difficult classes. In freestyle, anyone can dance with anyone else. Yes, there may be one or two who think they are above dancing with beginners, but as others have already pointed out, this happens anyway even without a grading system, so there wouldn't really be any change there.

Actually, I'm starting to convince myself that grading would be a good thing, so it's off the fence for me.

Some way of assessing people before they move up to intermediates would be good too. Some people move up long before they are ready, and this can cause problems for the rest of the intermediates. Maybe the beginner teachers/taxi dancers should have the final say as to whether someone moves up to intermediate or not.

[Ronde!]

We already have a card system in Australia. Advanced Intermediate level dancers can choose to be assessed for a "Blue" card, and Advanced level dancers can be assessed for a "Gold" card. I'm a non-blue-card holder, mainly because I live 3.5 hours from the nearest place I can be assessed, and I guess I have a few thoughts.

Firstly, I see the blue card as something that would provide me with a measure of progress. There are plenty of dancers I admire who have their blue card, and if I was to receive one, I would see it as a sign that I was making measurable progress towards their level of technical competence, outside any competitive arena.

Secondly, I can see the benefits of being a blue card holder. For example, there is no need to justify or rate your own ability to anyone else. That has been done by an independant evaluator. You get to dance in a line with other better people, which means you can learn much faster and concentrate on styling and fun aspects of dancing. And there are some events where you must have a blue card to be considered.

However, all of the pros of having a blue card are negatives for anyone that doesn't have one. Robert gets a blue card after 5 weeks; I don't have one yet after three years - am I particularly untalented (I realise I haven't actually summed up the confidence or found a time to actually ask for an evaluation yet)? As a non-blue-card holder, I sometimes feel it's necessary to justify my own standard to myself or others, with reference to, say competitive Ceroc events: if you don't have a blue card, girls sometimes *start* dancing with you feeling a bit dubious, and you then have to "perform" to a standard, to make them think you're worth dancing with instead of just enjoying dancing the song. I don't get to drive up to Willoughby and dance in the line with the better dancers, which means I feel like I'm getting less out of my lesson. And I can't go in any Blue Card routines or workshops, which inhibits my options and my progress.

Those things are all pretty pants for anyone on this side of the fence. I have had some very kind girls pull me into the blue card line on some ocassions, telling me I'm good enough, but I don't like to feel that I'm bypassing the blue card system, as if I was to have an off-night, and not be dancing my best (it's kinda hard to dance your best when you've just been driving for 3.5 hours) I'd hate to hear anyone mention that I shouldn't be in the blue card line.

Really, I should just get off my butt and ask someone for an evaluation, but I myself know there are loads of things I want to improve in my dancing, and to have someone confirm those things, which cause me enormous anxiety already, would be a bit depressing I guess. As I dance primarily for enjoyment, therefore, I tend to prefer to continue working on the things I want to improve until such time as I feel comfortable about having someone analyse my dancing close up. I don't know how long that will be, but I am "borderline" about doing a blue card assessment at the moment.

JM2c

[El Salsero Gringo]

Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc? Could be another interesting thread.

[TheTramp]

Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc? Could be another interesting thread.

We don't??

[El Salsero Gringo]

We don't??

Not long choreographed routines for particular tracks, tought over several weeks of rehearsals and then performed - do we?

[TheTramp]

I know of at least one teacher who's doing just that at the moment...

[Tessalicious]

I know of at least one teacher who's doing just that at the moment...

I refer the Right Honourable Donkey to the bottom half of this post - not that Trampy was fishing for a plug or anything...

[TheTramp]

I refer the Right Honourable Donkey to the bottom half of this post - not that Trampy was fishing for a plug or anything...

Thanks Miss Licious. And yeah. It is me. Don't need the plug though. Workshops started today, and the course is full anyhow.

Although, have been asked to run it in Glasgow as well

[Cruella]

Another thing we don't have here are taught routines - am I right in thinking they are quite common in Australian Ceroc? Could be another interesting thread.

Emma Pettit regularly teaches a set routine in her workshops. She has been for years!
Nice to know you're not an authority on everything ESG, shows you're human after all.

[David Bailey]

Not long choreographed routines for particular tracks, tought over several weeks of rehearsals and then performed - do we?

God, I hope not - even hearing Ecuador played 20-odd times from a distance at MJC last year was hard work...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Emma Pettit regularly teaches a set routine in her workshops. She has been for years!

OK, Emma Pettit, Trampy ... and, who else was that?

Seems pretty much pervasive in Australia (if the Ceroc Australia websites(s) are anything to go by) and not what you'd call all-the-rage here - at least not yet. Any going on in London? (which is widely acknowleged by all Forumites to be the centre of the dance universe... )