Page 3 of 12 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 230

Thread: Dance levels: "Card" system?

  1. #41
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    ascot
    Posts
    815
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    I can see the pro's and cons to this arguement but I'm going to stick my neck on the line and go 'pro'.

    Through all the posts I'm not sure that I've seen any mention that despite the fact Australia have a card system, there must still be paying punters attending who go purely for the social enjoyment side of things...aren't there?


    I also think that if a class has a designated beginner/improver, intermediate/advanced line then it gives a wee bit more clarity to the teacher over who may need some extra help.


    I would also say pro

    Having taught at both venues that are now holding advanced classes, i would have to say that the vast majority that attend are just not advanced dancers.
    A couple of points advanced lessons should not be about more complicated moves or routines, instead this lesson should comprise of tension, musicality,good leading and improvement of following. Once these have been mastered then move's become easier to lead and understand...

    But here is the problem can you do this on a mass...

    No i dont think so ...

    I prefer to feel there lead to witness there following, it is so easy to follow instruction but to understand why is the real lesson.

    A card system for me would be a venue driven system specific for that venue only and would just give a guide of the dancers experience and capability to comprehend the class they are to attend.

    No other reason.

    I have danced with many dancers who may well be brand new to Ceroc but have such great awareness of there frame and musicality that they can follow an intermediate class whithin two to three weeks.
    On the other hand some that have danced for years are exactly the opposite,
    Nicole feels the same with the male leads.

    It would be good for the uk jive dance scene to have a true grading system which could potentially raise the profile of jive/Ceroc to be accepted as a formal dance.
    But I think the first step would be a venue driven grading system simply to raise the teaching levels.

  2. #42
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Amongst those that are so against the Blue card system, there seem to be some rather flawed assumptions.

    1. That having a blue card means that you'd be less likely to want to dance with non-blue card holders in freestyle.

    I can't see why this would be any more likely with the system than without it. All the arguments we have about hotshottism, would apply equally. There can be no more justification for not dancing in freestyle with a non-blue card holder solely because they don't have a card, than there is for not dancing in freestyle with a less good dancer solely because they're a beginner or deemed not as good.

    I think James hit the nail on the head when he said

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveBrummie
    I also feel that if a card system was introduced, it wouldn't necessarily be the people utilising it that would be the problem, rather those outside of the system that sometimes unfairly label people in it as being hotshots or dance snobbish! Believe it or not most folks characters don't tend to change on the grounds of how good they dance.
    The other assumption seems to be:

    2. That for a non-blue card holder to get better requires dancing with blue card-holders in the I/A class.

    What usually happens in a difficult class that is significantly beyond the ability of several of the attenders is the following:

    - The guys that can't get it, limit what the girls (that can get it) can get out of it, since they can't provide the lead that the girls need.

    - The girls that can't get it make it impossible for the guys (that can get it) to achieve more than the basic "getting through the routine" aspect, since they are incapable of following the more subtle aspects that usually depend on a good connection, frame and balance.

    Now none of this says that there is no benefit at all to gain from doing a class that's beyond you, just that it's a very inefficient way of learning, and people would be much better served by classes that are only a little bit beyond what they're able to achieve.

    I've been in classes where I've learned a difficult routine with someone that could get it - and later been much better able to lead it with someone that couldn't (and help them with the bits they were finding difficult), than I would have done if I'd done the class with people that stopped me learning it properly.

    So not only was it a benefit to me to do the class with someone that could get it, it was also a benefit to those I danced it with in the following freestyle.

    In general, I think the level of MJ teaching in UK is often very poorly matched to the level of its students, and we'd do well to address this.

    Whether the separate rotations in the normal class is the best way of achieving this, I don't know. I think if we in the UK were to move to a more formal assessment system, it should start where there are currently advanced classes on offer.

  3. #43
    Papa Smurf
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Planet Scathe
    Posts
    12,528
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Yes its called Ballroom dancing

    Our fore farmers of ceroc would turn in their graves if they were dead
    I vote for more incoherence

  4. #44
    Registered User Tessalicious's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Kentish Town
    Posts
    1,650
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I'm fascinated by what both Simon R and Chris A have had to say on this - which seem to me to be the most carefully-considered thoughts about how this system could be used in the UK, without the reflex 'oooh, divisiveness, must be bad' that some others seem to display.

    IMHO, the minimum that is really needed is for there to be an informal 'audition' before taking part in Advanced classes such as those held in London at Jive Bar or Fulham, on weekenders, and elsewhere I'm sure. Otherwise it simply isn't fair on those who want to really learn something, or on the teachers of these classes who have to wait for one or two people to get the slightly more complex concepts. This is venue-specific, as Simon said, and obviously optional as it is up to each individual whether they want to do advanced classes or not.

    To go hand-in-hand with this, to stop it being 'divisive', it should be possible to tailor a monthly workshop to those individuals who want to be able to go to Advanced classes, but were deemed 'not ready' by the teacher who auditioned them. This can teach whatever aspects are missing from the dancing of the individuals who are there, such as lead-and-follow, frame and tension, posture, etc.

    A few people have mentioned that MJ will become like the ballroom scene with people practising for moving up a leve if this scheme is brought in - but I wonder how many of you are aware that there are already MJ medal tests you can take, related to the Ballroom and Latin medals? I'm not sure of the details, but I have friends who have taken these - and as far as I can tell they have not had much of an impact on the fun rather than competitiveness of social MJ. Why should cards to qualify for advanced classes, if brought in, make any more of a difference?

    Gadget, can I just say to the idea that the vast majority of people in an intermediate class are past the ability-to-injure stage - - I need to come to Scotland!

  5. #45
    The Forum Legend
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Nottingham
    Posts
    10,672
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious
    I need to come to Scotland!
    So true!!

  6. #46
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious
    To go hand-in-hand with this, to stop it being 'divisive'
    This whole "divisive" thing puzzles me... I don't even understand why people think of it as such.

    It's not divisive to expect people to do GCSEs before A-Levels, and A-Levels before doing a degree.

    So why should it be divisive to be expected to learn basic, intermediate, and advanced dancing in that order?

    Recognising where someone is at doesn't stop you having a fun dance with them in freestyle, so where's the issue?

    The only reason I can see for people seeing it as divisive is that they don't like having to recognise that they aren't as good as they'd like to be - or maybe as they think they are.

    Am I missing something? Is there another reason?

  7. #47
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In the corner
    Posts
    4,508
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    x a LOT

    I'm getting a sense of deja vu here...

  8. #48
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,881
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessalicious
    IMHO, the minimum that is really needed is for there to be an informal 'audition' before taking part in Advanced classes such as those held in London at Jive Bar or Fulham
    What would you do if not a single person who wanted to attend passed the audition - and all those who are good enough aren't interested in attending?

  9. #49
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    I'm getting a sense of deja vu here...
    Indeed.

    Wouldn't it be lovely if we could have a disussion about how best to actually get people to learn stuff, without it becoming a trigger for all the axes that need grinding to be brought out.

    I might add, as I think Tessa was suggesting, that if there are those that want to bridge the gap between lessons they can handle, and lessons that they can't, the quality of the teaching provision for them also needs to be addressed.

    Lead/follow, frame, balance all become increasingly vital the more advanced it all gets, and mostly they are hardly taught at all.

    The thing that got me on the road to starting to become a better lead wasn't doing classes with brilliant dancers at all. It was recognising that my lead was poor (and gawd - was that painful ), and starting to work out for myself (mostly in freestyle) what I needed to do to improve it. I'd have improved a hell of a lot faster if I'd actually been taught.

  10. #50
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    What would you do if not a single person who wanted to attend passed the audition - and all those who are good enough aren't interested in attending?
    You'd cancel the class, and put on another one at a level more appropriate for the people that did want to do it.

  11. #51
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In the corner
    Posts
    4,508
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I agree with Tessalicious, so since the question is on open forum, I'll bite...

    First I would laugh.

    Second, if I had any say in the matter, I would review what I was offering, possibly by asking the people who had "passed" the audition but decided not to attend. Looking at the Ceroc London website "There will be emphasis on musicality and technique" sounds a bit vague to me. I expect I will go along at some point when I'm not on taxi duty and 'investigate'.

  12. #52
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    This whole "divisive" thing puzzles me... I don't even understand why people think of it as such.
    Me neither - as I said, I'm surprised by the vehemence of some reactions. I guess you can never tell what sets people off.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Am I missing something? Is there another reason?
    Dunno, but if you find out, please let me know

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Wouldn't it be lovely if we could have a disussion about how best to actually get people to learn stuff, without it becoming a trigger for all the axes that need grinding to be brought out.
    Hmmm... how about if we talk about assessing teacher levels? That shouldn't be controversial should it?
    Last edited by David Bailey; 14th-January-2006 at 03:34 PM.

  13. #53
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Hmmm... how about if we talk about assessing teacher levels? That shouldn't be controversial should it?
    Can you believe that was the thread in which the term "Harperlink" was invented?

    Feels like a lot longer ago than that to me.

  14. #54
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    3,045
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I am firmly in the 'no cards', 'no exams' camp.
    I don't think the card system is all evil, and reading this thread, there are many good things that would, in theory, be beneficial to our current classes. The devil, however, is in the detail, and in particular:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary
    The main bad point for me is that I occasionally have to explain to some girl what she needs to improve to get a card, and I hate disappointing folks.
    . Everyone learns differently, and at a different pace. Maybe half of the people who attend an MJ class would respond well to some form of assessment, they love to be able to grade themselves, need to have their progress formally recognized, etc...
    The other half (ok, it might be 60 / 40 spit either way ) would resent the pressure and possibly never come back. Many would argue that is not a bad thing, but some of those people who were not put off in their first few months are now great dancers, and if we had scared them off, they would not be here.
    As mentioned in the thread already, those that want to have some form of assessment are already able to ask taxi-dancers, teachers or indeed enter competitions, to find out where they belong.
    Institutionalizing cards and assessment would put pressure on the people who dislike the idea, and I believe (not just guessing but from actual database information) eventually stop them coming.

    MJ is, in my opinion, the last resort for someone who wants to learn to dance! By this I mean that if we fail, then they will not succeed in any other dance class as the entry bar is usually higher. I have seen too many poor beginners transform into brilliant dancers (sometimes after years) to just give up on them or introduce hurdles.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

  15. #55
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Norf Lundin
    Posts
    17,001
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Can you believe that was the thread in which the term "Harperlink" was invented?
    I just re-read it. Good thread, I thought (biased, moi?), despite the controversy. And, unusually, everything I said 8 months ago, I'd agree with now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Feels like a lot longer ago than that to me.
    Probably because that was the last time we had a serious agreement

  16. #56
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    but some of those people who were not put off in their first few months are now great dancers, and if we had scared them off, they would not be here.
    ....
    I have seen too many poor beginners transform into brilliant dancers (sometimes after years) to just give up on them or introduce hurdles.
    Franck, this is the same argument we hear all the time, and with respect, it's irrelevant.

    Nobody is arguing that the bar should be raised for beginners. Nobody at all.

    This is about finding a mechanism for ensuring that people that are simply not ready for Advanced classes don't go to them, and thereby risk:

    - hurting themselves and others
    - getting bogged down in stuff that's too difficult, thereby getting discouraged unnecessarily
    - hindering the progress of those that can cope with such classes, and would benefit themselves and others more by learning more in them.

  17. #57
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    On another note...

    Let's look back a few years. There were no Advanced classes. Only moves were ever taught. Those that got to be advanced dancers did it by having a lot of natural talent, and practising with the in-crowd. Those without the raw talent stood no chance, since they weren't taught, and they weren't good enough to be 'in' with the people that would facilitate the skills transfer.

    Nowadays, there's some advanced teaching for those that can cope with it (and the definition of "Advanced" is very variable), but very little solid teaching of intermediate dancing.

    By 'solid', I mean teaching in such a way that actually brings people into contact with what they need to change so that they are not just doing moves.

    Because intermediate classes are, almost without exception, still just moves. You do get hints about technique and style from some teachers, but a) they are few and far between, and b) most of the people in the intermediate classes have absorbed far too little of a 'learning culture' to be tuned into such points. They are still caught up in the 'fun' of not listening to the teacher, chatting to the partners, yanking, anticipating, etc, etc, etc.

    I want to see the quality of the teaching improved, so that people can learn the right stuff at late beginner / early intermediate level.

    Because only then will there be a genuine development path, where progressively more advanced techniques can be taught to people that have the ability to learn them, but not so much ability that they can invent/discover them for themselves.

    That, far more than this laissez-faire attitude to who should do which classes, will start breaking down barriers and getting rid of hurdles.

    What's the phrase? Oh yes...

    ... and I want a pony...

  18. #58
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    3,045
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Nobody is arguing that the bar should be raised for beginners. Nobody at all.
    My point is that a card or assessment system would implicitly raise the bar for beginners and early intermediate (and my definition of the above would include someone who has been dancing
    less than a year). There is already a divide, between the beginners and intermediate class, and in some cases and advanced class. I just would resist any introduction of a a more formal system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    This is about finding a mechanism for ensuring that people that are simply not ready for Advanced classes don't go to them, and thereby risk:

    - hurting themselves and others
    - getting bogged down in stuff that's too difficult, thereby getting discouraged unnecessarily
    - hindering the progress of those that can cope with such classes, and would benefit themselves and others more by learning more in them.
    I am also looking for a solution to the above problem, and wanted to express my view that cards and systems would cause too many undesirable side-effects.
    My current solution to the above is to offer more technical teaching, both via workshops (and focus classes) and at regular weekly classes, where teachers are more aware of connection and basic Lead & Follow so improve everyone at the same time!

    As an example, during my Sunday Focus classes, which can be quite intense and technical, I welcome all level of dancers, from beginners to extremely competent. My view is that you don't have to be an 'advanced' dancer to benefit from good solid technique, and often beginners are as receptive to learning so-called 'advanced concepts' and don't need a blue card to attend. What they need is a willingness to learn, something no Gold card can provide.
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

  19. #59
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    3,045
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    I want to see the quality of the teaching improved, so that people can learn the right stuff at late beginner / early intermediate level.

    Because only then will there be a genuine development path, where progressively more advanced techniques can be taught to people that have the ability to learn them, but not so much ability that they can invent/discover them for themselves.

    That, far more than this laissez-faire attitude to who should do which classes, will start breaking down barriers and getting rid of hurdles.
    We posted at the same time and seemingly agree!
    That's exactly what I would like to see more of, which would solve many more problems, so
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

  20. #60
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In the corner
    Posts
    4,508
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Because only then will there be a genuine development path, where progressively more advanced techniques can be taught to people that have the ability to learn them, but not so much ability that they can invent/discover them for themselves.
    Which is probably at least 80% of us (the remainder being naturally talented dancers and even fewer who may never "get it").

    Unfortunately, 80% of the 80% are just not interested

    NB Statistics unsubstantiated, I just liked the sound of the numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    My current solution to the above is to offer more technical teaching, both via workshops (and focus classes) and at regular weekly classes, where teachers are more aware of connection and basic Lead & Follow so improve everyone at the same time!
    THAT'S IT.

    I'm emigrating.

    Do I need a work permit for Scotland?

    Thinking again about my spurious statistics and the gratitude of some beginners for even the very very basic advice that I can pass on (most of which has been learned from people on here or my own research): perhaps the teachers who do not regularly and comprehensively cover technical teaching are *under*-estimating interest. If you ask someone whether they want to learn technical stuff, they would probably go "? no way, I just dance for fun" - but if you asked them if they wanted to improve their dancing...

    *lights blue touch-paper and runs*

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 141
    Last Post: 3rd-January-2006, 01:45 AM
  2. Dance teaching that "draws out" rather than "imposes"
    By Clive Long in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 21st-December-2005, 11:46 AM
  3. "Follow the Fleet" & "Shall we dance"
    By Stuart in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 2nd-August-2005, 09:37 AM
  4. Saturday In Dartford "dance Riviera"
    By Mikey in forum Social events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 18th-May-2004, 09:53 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •