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Thread: Dance levels: "Card" system?

  1. #21
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    David - you had been doing so well. You hadn't had a go at competitions for a few days now.
    I know, I'm very proud of myself.

    But to be fair to me (!), I'm making that judgement based on
    • what I think is the consensus from the Australian forum (for example, this post)
    • MsFab's comment "whereas in Oz its mostly about competition" - OK, that's only her opinion, but I think there's some element of truth there,
    • What people said in the "What is Aussie style" thread...

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    This thread seems determined to stay on topic so I'd better join in.

    David James says Ceroc don't support you past beginner. This isn't entirely true. But David thinks it so this must be true to him. If you're not learning anything new my advice is to stop going to Ceroc.

    On the subject of coloured cards I think they won't work. What we need are marbles. The better you get the bigger your mable. Guys carry the marbles in their pockets and girls pop them in their bra cup. You'd be able to tell how good people are by the size of their bulge The we can say "he must be good, that bulge is massive"

    Soeaking personally, I can usually tell how good somebody is by watching them dance. All a card would do would tell you how good they were when they weren't dancing - and it doesn't really matter how good a dancer they are when you're chatting in the bar or takeaway

    There seems to be some contention that Aussies are good dancers. We are pretty certain that the ones who travel half-way around the planet to dance in the UK are great dancers. But what about the ones they leave at home?

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    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    There's an interesting discussion in the " Gender Balance?" thread on www.cerocforum.com, which got me thinking about the whole "blue card / gold card" system some venues (most? all?) in Australia use.

    AIUI (and I could be wrong) a Blue card is given to (ed.) advanced/intermediates, and then a Gold card to more advanced dancers? I vaguely knew that - but what I didn't know was that there are separate "Blue Card lines" and "Gold card lines" in classes themselves.
    << snip >>
    In Japan they have exams, then place you in one of five colour-gradings for your competence in queueing for, then forcing yourself on to, the rather busy buses
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Most advance classes I've done are just moves where 95% of them you would need to practice with your partner for say part of a cabaret act. They have no practical use in freestyle with a unknowing partner
    I know we've had the discussions 'what is an advanced dancer/dancing' - have we had one on 'what is an advanced class'? It sometimes is just more complicated moves, but IMO (and hopefully others) it should be one in which any moves taught are simply a tool to teach a technique, or to enhance your skill or style.

    Clive -

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    On the subject of coloured cards I think they won't work. What we need are marbles.
    Can we have badges instead? Different colours to indicate the different skills we've mastered.

    Of course, the ultimate will be a black & white badge.

    This will enable you to sit by the stage, regard all other dancers with (justifiable) contempt, and allow you to be rebuked with those badges ESJ, DavidJames & all designed for hotshots...

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    My views on exams and qualifications to dance are well documented in various posts, but for continuity, here:
    Ceroc Exams.
    Basically, I think that it isolates and segregates. Especially new people, who are the ones you want to welcome.

    I won't go over too much old ground, but grrrrr. Bad idea.

    Re: separate lines of pupils depending on ability. IMHO This practice only has redeeming features for completely self-centred individuals. I can think on few better methods of forming an isolated clique

    An argument may be put forward that the lower levels can look up to and aspire to be in the top group. This would give them a goal to aspire to and drive them to be better dancers. But if everyone in that top group was in a general class, then they may realise that they already arein a great group.

    Inspiration should be drawn from "I want to dance [b]like[b] them". Not "I want to dance with them."
    What gets confused in the lines of differing abilities is the assumption that to dance like them, you have to dance with them. If this holds as true in your mind, then it's a circular process with no escape.

    I also think that the teaching would be quite patronising to the lower levels (or you would have to be a damn good teacher for it not to be). It introduces the concept that you have to be this good before you can learn style or technique.

    Advantage: at an I/A class those in the blue card line know that they are dancing with people capable of doing the routine; they don't have to worry that their partner just came up from beginners last week. This makes it easier for them to learn the move and any style taught with it.
    Grrrrrrr... so many issues with this...

    OK, Why does it make it easier to learn the move if the people you are dancing with are judged "capable of doing the routine"? What I mean is that I would expect to get more partners backleading me in the 'advanced' line. I would have little chance to discover where the move could go wrong and what/how to correct it. Good technique should not be dependant on the ability of your partner - it's about you. (Although I concede that any 'style' being taught may be difficult to implement with a partner of lesser ability.)

    Why should people worry that their partner is a (relative) beginner? What is there to cause concern or worry about? The only thing I can think on is loss of "face" or injury.
    - In the MJ world, I think that there is very little a dancer could do in class to cause their partner unending embarrassment.
    - Injuries... well, I assume that we are talking about an intermediate class; most folk by that time should have had the basics instilled in them and only a very small minority would have the possability of injuring you. {On this note I've started a new thread}

    oh, just why, why, why??...
    <hr>

    I only read about the first page of the Auz thread because I was starting to talk at my monitor and frown lots. {I post enough here; no need to inflict myself on anyone else }

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    Sorry, but I think is this a very bad sounding system.
    The different levels of dancers should be able to learn/teach each other, other wise how is a not so confident dancer going to improve!
    Absolutely! Mostly this happens over here, occasionally (once a month at most venues) we do something different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    And who judges which colour you belong to?
    Well me, for one. I'm not claiming to be the best dancer or judge of dancing, but I can tell when a girl does good balanced free double-spins, follows new stuff without trying to guess/anticipate, and has good dip technique (which is pretty much all we're looking for for I/A girls).
    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    I really dont think its good practice to label dancers, 'Oh cant dance with you're not good enough!' 'Oh no scary dancer, im not good enough to dance with them!' Its the perfect way to give people complexes!
    I'm pretty sure this sort of thing would go on with or without separate streams for some classes. Unless you're saying it never happens in the UK?
    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    I cant think of any good points to this colouring/grading system .
    The main good point to my mind is that I/A girls get to attack a trickier routine occasionally with guys who have a much better chance of leading it properly. It's not such a big win for me personally (although I hear that it is for some of the guys as well).
    The main bad point for me is that I occasionally have to explain to some girl what she needs to improve to get a card, and I hate disappointing folks.
    Quote Originally Posted by MsFab
    When I was over there (sydney and melbourne), I didnt think they were any better than the lovely dancers in the UK. I found, We over here like to enjoy our dancing whereas in Oz its mostly about competition (pleasing the crowd!) This is only my opinion
    How bizarre. There are only three or four comps a year, it'd seem weird to make the whole year be mostly about that. It also seems weird that we'd spend our time doing something we don't "like to enjoy"??

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    I'm another "no" when it comes to cards, but as I've said before, better assessment than "has been dancing 6 weeks" is needed - even encouraging a culture where people ask the teacher before they 'move up' would be an improvement.
    That sounds like you want exactly the system we have now, just without that final step (where after the teacher says "yes, you're ready", the teacher hands you a card (which is almost never checked for in any case)).
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    As MsFab point out, the Australian system is (from what I can tell) based around a "career progression", the end point of which is competing and winning competitions.
    a) most people don't compete. b) those people who do compete often start competing as beginners, not as some end point, c) of those who compete, most of them don't take it all that seriously (although we all try to do as well as we can, I guess)
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Speaking personally, I can usually tell how good somebody is by watching them dance.
    To get an accurate idea of how well someone is following and holding their own weight in dips, it's better to dance with them, but basically I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    All a card would do would tell you how good they were when they weren't dancing - and it doesn't really matter how good a dancer they are when you're chatting in the bar or takeaway
    The card (or more, the test to get the card) is not to tell others "hey, look, I'm good!", it's to give each person (who asks for it) an accurate idea of their own level. It's irrelevant to anything except "should I join the I/A stream or the I stream for these specific classes".

    There seems to be some contention that Aussies are good dancers. We are pretty certain that the ones who travel half-way around the planet to dance in the UK are great dancers. But what about the ones they leave at home?
    Ooh, much better


    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    My views on exams and qualifications to dance are well documented in various posts, ...
    Basically, I think that it isolates and segregates. Especially new people, who are the ones you want to welcome.
    I guess it depends on what you call "new". Beginners won't even know about it, until they start doing intermediate classes.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I think, generally speaking, the card system is not a bad thing.

    Pro:
    Most of us have been to classes when there were one or two people that simply could not hack it and the teacher either had to ignore that fact or drop a move or two off the routine. The danger of hat happening is bigger downunder because the routines consist of more moves. Having a card system for the odd 'special' class hence will make those dancers that really want to learn more complex stuff happy because a decent pace can be maintained.

    Con:
    The downside, obviously, is, that people may use this for a p*ss*ng contest. Due to the additional group you will have one more group that sees itself above others. This sort of arrogance happens everywhere, unfortunately even here in the UK, just not as 'frequently'. If somebody came up to me and said 'you have got the blue card with the red ribbon and the sparkly bits at the side, let us have a dance' I'd probably just laugh and walk off. But I'd do the same thing if somebody said 'you are an advanced dancer, I can dance with you'. Well, perhaps I'd show them that they can't But point is, the card system is not really much worse than grouping people in 'beg', 'int', adv'.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    The day they grade and or give out cards is the day ceroc dies
    with out clear development ceroc will die anyway

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    *snip* The different levels of dancers should be able to learn/teach each other, other wise how is a not so confident dancer going to improve!
    surely those higher than a begnnier shouldn't be denyed the chance to learn in a class of their peers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    And who judges which colour you belong to?
    teachers of course Duh
    Quote Originally Posted by Msfab
    I really dont think its good practice to label dancers, 'Oh cant dance with you're not good enough!' 'Oh no scary dancer, im not good enough to dance with them!' Its the perfect way to give people complexes!
    it attaches no more labels than are already applied - oh they compete at advanced I can't dance with them ....

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Personally I like the card system as it gives those that want it a way to measure their skill.

    Not eveyone competes - in fact I would hazard a guess that most people don't and the card system gives them a way to have their development judged with out competing.

    It is a bit daunting having an assessment done - I remember getting my blue card - I was very nervous - but am glad I got it - the teacher assessing me told me after he thought it was funny that I got so nervous over the blue card - when I really should be going for my gold card.

    I don't think people use the cards as a judging others dancing ability in general - have never heard anyone walk up and say - if you have a blue/gold card I would like to dance with you.

    I have enjoyed the advanced classes I have attended in Sydney - knowing that everyone in the line I was rotating in had a gold card or equivlant (being from interstate my dance partner at the time and I being advanced level competetors were permitted into the gold card rotation) gave me the confidence to try the complex moves only really worrying about what I had to get right. Given my chronic injuries and weakness i wouldn't have attempted the class in a normal mix.

    The cards also mean that workshops can be taught - with an assumption of knowledge - if the workshop if for blue cards they will know/be able to to do x & y if it's for gold cards they will know/be able to to do x,y & z

    These cards are something that people choose to do - and if you don't have a card it's not like you are excluded from the class

  12. #32
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander, as to who judges
    teachers of course Duh
    In fact it's not "Duh" at all. Teaching and examining are two separate skills. Driving instructors don't judge your driving test. School examiners are different, usually more senior (or specialist) teachers than those teaching the class. Universities have external examiners to ensure high standards. So it would make more sense (logically, if not logistically) to have a separate cadre of trained Ceroc examiners to assess what level each dancer should be in.

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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    (logically, if not logistically)
    And isn't that the point? What value is there in training and employing people purely as examiners, when there is the teacher who can be trained to do it, and has already been paid to be there?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    I can see the pro's and cons to this arguement but I'm going to stick my neck on the line and go 'pro'.

    Through all the posts I'm not sure that I've seen any mention that despite the fact Australia have a card system, there must still be paying punters attending who go purely for the social enjoyment side of things...aren't there?

    Competition in Aus is encouraged if you chose to follow that path, from beginner level...over here it's labelled by many as being something undertaken by those who feel they have something to prove. (Blackpool soon, the UK's premier competing event...get your entries in fast! )

    I also think that if a class has a designated beginner/improver, intermediate/advanced line then it gives a wee bit more clarity to the teacher over who may need some extra help. To explain, at last years BFG, I had the pleasure of teaching an advanced class. Not technique, nothing to heavy or deep and meaningful but purely some advanced moves (as that was what it was advertised as). In the first class of the two there was probably just one person who couldn't cope with the moves, had we had the 'card system' this would not have happened. As it turned out I had to spend more time with this person than others in the class, overall slowing down the pace and potentially stopping me from getting through the routine I'd constructed. In the second class however, we had a room full of what I would describe as advanced dancers. Yeah sure, there were some problems but they 'got' the routine in such a short time that we had a chance to freestyle the moves we'd done and then ask the odd question about different things to do with the moves and even take a look at some more advanced technique type stuff. If you're an advanced dancer do you need to be told of all the in's and out's of a move or should you not be able to see them for yourself? This is a genuine query by the way not a wind up.

    I also feel that if a card system was introduced, it wouldn't necessarily be the people utilising it that would be the problem, rather those outside of the system that sometimes unfairly label people in it as being hotshots or dance snobbish! Believe it or not most folks characters don't tend to change on the grounds of how good they dance. If they're arrogant or snobs they are normally like this from beginner level.

    Beginner hotshots eh? Now there's a thread!

    j.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    David James says Ceroc don't support you past beginner. This isn't entirely true.
    Absolutely correct; it's not true that I said Ceroc don't support you past beginners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    If you're not learning anything new my advice is to stop going to Ceroc.
    Well, thanks for that constructive advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Soeaking personally, I can usually tell how good somebody is by watching them dance.
    If you can do that to a class of 60 people, sort them appropriately, and also teach a class in under 40 minutes, then I'd be officially impressed.

    Again, people seem to want to talk about freestyles - I'm not, I'm talking about what can be done to standard class structure to support a greater level of "career development" for dancers in a Ceroc environment.

    And the card system seemed to be one possible solution

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    There seems to be some contention that Aussies are good dancers.
    Again, a slight misunderstanding. I said that I'd no evidence to assume they are worse dancers than the dancers in the UK - the implication being that a card system doesn't seem to have turned out Bad Dancers. I'm happy to consider any actual information to the contrary.

    I'm somewhat surprised (only somewhat, however, knowing some people) to see the vast amount of negativity generated by simply telling people about an alternative system, which for all its faults (perceived or otherwise) does address an area I think Ceroc UK doesn't - providing good higher-level intermediate support.

    The card system seems to help enable teachers to teach at a higher level, rather than having to cater for a range of dancers - being forced to go at the pace of the slowest means you necessarily don't give much to those with more experience.

    I'm also glad to see this has drawn the Aussies out of the woodwork a bit

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi
    And isn't that the point? What value is there in training and employing people purely as examiners, when there is the teacher who can be trained to do it, and has already been paid to be there?
    Oh, no value at all - but I'm of the opinion that there's not much value in training teachers to examine people in Ceroc either. I just didn't think it was as dumb a question as Yliander made it sound.

    To address DavidJames' and others concerns about providing a career progression, Ceroc (London) has been providing 'advanced' classes at various venues as mentioned, and while there are plenty of people attending, I don't think anyone's noticed an overwhelming tidal surge of customers towards them.

    I just don't think that Ceroc in the UK attracts a lot of people who really care very much about the standard of their dancing. There are a (very vocal) few - and I say that without a hint of complaint - but I don't think most people would be impressed with or enjoy a card system. That's pure conjecture on my part, I know.

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    Beginner hotshots eh? Now there's a thread!
    I was a beginner hotshot... (Some might say I still am! )

    Anyway, I think I agree with you James, after reading Gary's explanation of how the system works, I don't think the down-sides are so bad... But then I think I've always been in favour of some sort of system that would allow a dancer to know just how good he/she is...

    I've been to a few "more advanced" workshops, and even a couple that were labelled "advanced", but I've always tried to ask the teacher or organiser if they thought I was capable first, before signing up/going along.

    Despite that, I've found myself once or twice out of my depth. And I've hopefully always had the good sense to step aside and let the others get on with it...

    Having some grading system would give me greater confidence in my abilities, would mean I'd go to the classes and workshops designed for me, and with something like the unofficial assessment form that DavidJames pointed out, I'd also know what I should be trying to improve...

    It's entirely up to the holders of the cards who they choose to dance with. Even if I had a gold card I wouldn't look down on the blue-card dancers and refuse them dances – I'd just be missing out. Same goes for the full range of abilities from promising beginner all the way up to who-ever is our current choice of dance-god this week.

    The only time I'd be interested in the colour of someone's card would be if I'm looking for a partner for competition or similar, where I'd want to team-up with someone of similar ability.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    OK, Why does it make it easier to learn the move if the people you are dancing with are judged "capable of doing the routine"? What I mean is that I would expect to get more partners backleading me in the 'advanced' line. I would have little chance to discover where the move could go wrong and what/how to correct it. Good technique should not be dependant on the ability of your partner - it's about you. (Although I concede that any 'style' being taught may be difficult to implement with a partner of lesser ability.)

    Why should people worry that their partner is a (relative) beginner? What is there to cause concern or worry about? The only thing I can think on is loss of "face" or injury.
    From a follower's point of view, I'll take slight issue with this one. I am even more rubbish at following leans, dips, seducers in freestyle than I was 3 months ago, because my confidence has been destroyed by a few bad experiences in lessons (think I might need another workshop). It would be lovely to be more certain that a leader in a class line up is not going to "drop" me when he dips me, so I *can* keep my own weight (unfortunately, I'm not that good at dips/seducers, so there is a point of "no return" for me). It would be lovely not to be yanked through a pretzelly type thing with thumbs gripping on or in the wrong direction - even if the follower is not anticipating, when their weight is in one direction, that is the way they need to be led in some of the pretzel moves, or it hurts.

    I disagree with separating dancers by class lines, as many have said, this is divisive and unhelpful to newer dancers. And the current beginner -> intermediate route that is Ceroc policy evidently works remarkably well - on a commercial basis at least. I have no problem with separate classes for advanced dancers - and if the moves are potentially dangerous if done incorrectly then there should be some means of assessing whether someone is capable. FWIW, I don't believe that I would qualify - yet.

    Some franchises (Ceroc London is one) will actually say that they want you to have done a certain amount of dancing at intermediate level before you sign up for some workshops. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any means of "checking" this, nor does it take into account that some people can do two years of intermediate lessons and still not be capable of doing the workshop. If workshops organisers are going to "discriminate" on grounds of ability, it would be nice if they did it properly.

    Perhaps there could be a route for teachers and some of the more experienced taxi dancers to qualify as an "assessor" - where they have a couple of dances with someone in freestyle and give them a yea or nay for doing advanced classes or certain workshops. Nothing pressured like being 'watched' and obviously voluntary on the part of the punter.

    IMO, most punters would be perfectly happy without an advanced class the way they seem to run at the moment (more moves, just that they are more complicated).

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    One of the very first questions I got asked last year when I got to Oz, was why if I thought that there was a reason why modern jive was bigger in the UK than in Oz.

    Looking around, at a lot of classes over there, the general 'feel' is that what is being taught is a lot more technical, and there is less interest in purely having a social night out, as is the case over here.

    I suggest that a lot of people who come to modern jive in this country would not 'survive' in classes in Oz, and would not keep coming.

    I'm not sure that the card system maintains this difference. But it may possibly contribute.

    I'm sitting on the fence regarding the cards. I can see the advantages of trying to ensure that people are doing classes appropriate to the level of dance that they have achieved. I'm just not sure that I'd want to see it at 'regular' class nights. I think that those should be available to all, as they are over in this country. And hence bringing along people that just come for a social night out (you know, the people that we like to talk about and criticise on this forum!), without really wishing to become fantastic dancers. I think that one of the great things about modern jive (in the UK) is that it gets people into dancing, who probably wouldn't be dancing otherwise.

    Like me for example

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    Re: Dance levels: "Card" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    Perhaps there could be a route for teachers and some of the more experienced taxi dancers to qualify as an "assessor" - where they have a couple of dances with someone in freestyle and give them a yea or nay for doing advanced classes or certain workshops. Nothing pressured like being 'watched' and obviously voluntary on the part of the punter.
    Thats pretty much what it is like - you speak to an appropriate teacher they dance with you - knowning that you want to be assessed and do so, based on the criteria - in addition if the result is a nay then you will recieve helpful hints and advice on what to work on so that next time you will get a yea.

    The only pressure involved is that which you put on yourself *gulp* which was a lot in my instance

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