There's an interesting discussion in the " Gender Balance?" thread on www.cerocforum.com, which got me thinking about the whole "blue card / gold card" system some venues (most? all?) in Australia use.
AIUI (and I could be wrong) a Blue card is given to intermediates, and then a Gold card to more advanced dancers? I vaguely knew that - but what I didn't know was that there are separate "Blue Card lines" and "Gold card lines" in classes themselves.
As this post makes clear, the advantage is that the more advanced lines can try out variations, work on styling, and so on.
Of course, there are disadvantages as well...
So, do people think such a system would be useful in the UK?
Yes its called Ballroom dancingOriginally Posted by DavidJames
Our fore farmers of ceroc would turn in their graves if they were dead
The day they grade and or give out cards is the day ceroc dies
maybe we could have blue line across the floor to devide them and us. good dancers this side and bad dancers other side and those that dont know dance in the middle
Are they the ones that danced to "I've got a new combine harvester" or "She thinks my tractor's sexy"?Our fore farmers of ceroc would turn in their graves if they were dead
Are you saying things change ?
Bring back Meta Max
Sorry, but I think is this a very bad sounding system.
The different levels of dancers should be able to learn/teach each other, other wise how is a not so confident dancer going to improve!
And who judges which colour you belong to?
Dancers that want to try out variations/style should be able to try things out in any line. And Im sure people wouldnt mind trying things out after the lesson.
I really dont think its good practice to label dancers, 'Oh cant dance with you're not good enough!' 'Oh no scary dancer, im not good enough to dance with them!' Its the perfect way to give people complexes!
I cant think of any good points to this colouring/grading system.
Has any of this made sense?
It reminds me of a salsa class I've been to, with four different classes going on in the same hall simultaneously, according to 'ability'. (although doing different moves in that case). The whole place is a snobby nightmare of "who's good enough to deserve a dance with me?". That could be because it's Salsa, but formally categorising people as soon as they walk in the door can't really help much. Unlike most salsa classes, it's very busy - but, like most salsa classes their beginner retention rate is about 0.000002%.
Also, mostly, people end up in the wrong class for their ability. Except for the top grade, which is by invitation only - and just you try asking one of those people for a dance in freestyle and see what look you get!
Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 13th-January-2006 at 12:38 PM.
.. an' I'll give you the key.
Come on now let's get together
In perfect harmony
I got twenty acres
An' you got forty-three
Now I got a brand new combine harvester
An' I'll give you the key
This brought back many memories for me. When I was in my teens I had a job as a glass collector and washer upper at the White Buck in Burley in the New Forest. Every summer we had Adge Cutler and the Wurzels alternating with Acker Bilk.
I need to play some interesting music to get that song out of my head.
Have I taken this silly idea far enough off topic yet? Modern Jive/Leroc* is an inclusive dance. We don't need something as divisive as streaming.
*and Ceroc is a brand name for Modern Jive it's not the dance at all. How could it be when they teach Cha Cha Cha and other dances?
..Aahh yu're a fine looking woman and I can't wait to get me 'ands on your land
This is very similar to the footwork debate. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages, and associated with that their supporters and detractors. Both ways undoubtedly work - otherwise there wouldn't be Ceroc in both countries.
I don't thing anyone has the right to tell anyone else how they should learn something. I just wish the choice of class style was simpler than going from one end of the earth to the other.
You used to have to get James or Janie to agree to you moving up from beginners to intermediate, and then from intermediate to advanced.
Way out of my depth here, it's not a system I'm familiar with... But, the
"Getting a Blue Card" bit of the CerocWiki seems to cover this - there's even an assessment form if you want to fill it out
You think those labels don't exist in the UK, simply because we don't have a card system?
Well, except that it works for them - which, frankly, seems to be the killer argument.I cant think of any good points to this colouring/grading system
I guess you always like the system you know, but it's useful to consider why it works there - is it simply because that's the way it is? - and whether it would work here. Innovation and changes aren't always bad, and it's a shame if people always think so.
However, one clear argument for supporting this system is that it provides a clear and transparent definition of different levels of ability, which to me is a damned sight better than our current "You been dancing 6 / 12 weeks? OK, you must be an intermediate then." system.
One of my many hobby-horses is the lack of support Ceroc UK provides for developing dancing beyond intermediate level, or for providing regular styling classes for those of us who want to develop our dancing this way. This system in Oz ssems to provide a format for this.
Having said that, don't get me wrong and assume I'm proposing this or even supporting it. But some open debate wouldn't kill us.
And if Ceroc Australia are using a system that generates good dancers (and they are, I think), then maybe we could learn from them? I know, crazy talk...
But they are starting to, aren't they? There's an advanced class at the Jive Bar, another at Fulham Town Hall, and there are lots of styling workshops.
On the subject of cards: maybe if hotshot people *were* graded in some way, they'd be even less snobby about dancing with 'beginners' - since ostentatiously having a more sparkly card meant they didn't have anything to 'prove' by who they were seen dancing with? Maybe it would actually help things along?
True - it's so frustrating having people who are convinced that after 6 weeks they must be doing all the beginners' stuff right so they can move up, when actually they haven't yet noticed that their followers are always losing their balance (must be her fault, right?) or that they're not actually doing the moves they're being led to do.
I went to Amir's advanced class at Fulham last night and there was a first-timer - yes, you heard right, it was his first ever night dancing - doing the Jango-taster-advanced class, including ochos in sway position and a gorgeous but very hard slide/lady-forward-lean/leg-sweep thing. Funnily enough he found it a bit tricky
Not sure what I think about this, I'm not totally for it or against it. Personally I do like the idea of some sort of 'standard' to measure my own ability up to. But I also love the 'dance with anyone' attitude of MJ (OK, most of MJ, most of the time).
I do think that for workshops, there should be some method of measuring ability to ensure the person is of an ability level where they can do the workshop. If someone isn't at the right level for a workshop then others get frustrated with them and the individual gets discouraged, and doesn't really benefit very much.
I seem to have been taking exams all my life (just took another one yesterday). Some people are put off by the pressure of having to learn something and then being judged. I have always felt the pressure of having to perform well in an exam and the relief when all has been passed satisfacorily. I have also felt the disappointment and feeling of failure when I haven't passed an exam but that has only made me more determined and focussed if I have the opportunity for doing a retake.
For me, exams work well. They lay out what knowledge or skills I need to obtain and have an objective set of tests to show that I have done so satisfactorily. They focus my mind wonderfully on the task ahead and provide a deadline that keeps my mind focussed.
So for me I think this "blue card" system would have worked well. I do understand that there are some people that are not like me and react very badly to the stress of examinations of any type and that stress stops them being able to perform to the best of their abilities. I don't think the pass/fail critera have to be very high in the first instance since the first level should be looking at stopping people being reckless with the safety of their partner, those around them and themselves. At least this is what the blue card assesment form refered to in earlier posts looks like to me.
MJ has a reputation for being fun and acessable and this is partly achieved by refusing to discriminate on the grounds of ability. So we can have the situation where a person who has never danced a step in their life can ligitimately plonk themselves in an advanced class.
MJ is the only enviroment where I have not been put into abilty streams since school at the age of about 12 or graded at the end of the course.
Well its obviously a silly variation to be doing then!
You think those labels don't exist in the UK, simply because we don't have a card system?
I assume youre talking about hotshots and alike? I know it does, but its not good and we complain about it. So is making it offical any better?
There are plenty of workshops from various teachers you can go to to improve/develop your dancing - you dont have to have coloured cards for that!
It depends what your definition of good dancers is? When I was over there (sydney and melbourne), I didnt think they were any better than the lovely dancers in the UK. I found, We over here like to enjoy our dancing whereas in Oz its mostly about competition (pleasing the crowd!) This is only my opinionAnd if Ceroc Australia are using a system that generates good dancers (and they are, I think), then maybe we could learn from them? I know, crazy talk...
If you really want to be graded, there are plently of competitions you could enter to compare yourself with others and assess your dancing ability!
Correction: blue card is not intermediate, it is intermediate/advanced
Intermediate is still "done at least 8 weeks of classes and able to confidently and competenly freestyle", and is self-assessed by the student.
Criteria for a blue card are on the ceroc wiki, and in several threads on the Australian forum. Having a blue card is required for learning some routines, and may be required for some workshops.
I don't know the criteria for Gold card, and it will be a long time before I need to worry about them.
For classes, most venues have an I/A class once a month (one venue has it 3 times a month). At these classes there are two rotations: blue card and non blue card. The classes are taught at the I/A level, with advice for simplifying the moves for the non blue card line (for example, a normal class might have a single spin and the teacher will say "more advanced dancers can try a double spin". I/A classes would have a double spin, and the teacher would say "non-blue dancers can do a single spin").
Advantage: at an I/A class those in the blue card line know that they are dancing with people capable of doing the routine; they don't have to worry that their partner just came up from beginners last week. This makes it easier for them to learn the move and any style taught with it.
Disadvantage: one major advantage of the rotation system (in my view) iis that less experienced dancers get to try the move with people who know and can do it. The blue card system takes those dancers into a separate group just when a more difficult routine (for which the less experienced dancers most need help) is being taught.
I do not have a blue card. I hate performing, and dancing with a teacher to get a blue card comes under the category of performing for me. Most of the time I have no trouble with the I/A routine in the non-blue line. When I do have trouble, I usually know it's my problem and work on trying to fix the problem. In one class I felt the only reason I couldn't get the routine was because I had partners who weren't capable of it. At that time I complained on the Australian forum. The general response was that I should just get my blue card.
Overall, I don't like the blue card system. Firstly, I hate the idea of having to ask a teacher to judge my dancing (that's just a personal foible. I realise other people would have no problem with it). Secondly, I think it is better for everyone to dance with people of all levels, and the separate blue card rotation prevents this.
I think I/A classes should be advertised as I/A, taught at I/A level, but with only one rotation and let people choose whether they should attend (this assumes that [as in Sydney] there is more than one ceroc venue each night, so people do have a choice of venues).
I'm just talking about classes and other learning environments - I think maybe you're talking about freestyles? If you think I support any labelling system or segregation system in freestyles, I can only surmise you've missed the several hundred rants I've had about how much I dislike this sort of thing...
But I want a pretty coloured card
And a pony.
Seriously, as ESG also pointed out, advanced classes are springing up - but they're not standardised and not spread out, so unless you live in a good patch, you're likely to miss out.
Fair enough, but I've seen nothing to indicate that they're any worse either, which is what my statement said.
Yep, I'm a well-known big fan of competitions in MJ, I think they're just great - ask anyone.
Thanks - it's good to have someone with actual knowledge contribute (rather than me, as I'm pretty much just making it up as I go).
Or possibly "more advanced dancers can try doing it better"
From that I assume that the card system is reasonably well-accepted in Australia?
I'm another "no" when it comes to cards, but as I've said before, better assessment than "has been dancing 6 weeks" is needed - even encouraging a culture where people ask the teacher before they 'move up' would be an improvement.
I'm not convinced that the "new night" at the JB will address the issue of provision for more experience dancers. AIUI, the evening will be an intermediate class followed by an advanced class.
Once a month, Stevenage follows this format, and I hate it - the advanced class is just another intermediate class with more difficult moves, some of which are dangerous when performed by some people who do not have the skills/experience necessary. I would include myself in those numbers for the drop that Adam saw fit to teach in the last advanced class that he conducted at Stevenage (I bailed and watched - it was scary - most of the people in the class were simply not up to it). No technique/style pointers are included - it's just more moves.
I hope the Jive Bar Wednesday nights are not going to be like that - it's pointless. More style/safety/technique needs to be taught in regular classes. Unfortunately, although they are, as ESG says, readily available, weekend workshops have a very low attendance.
I don't care about cards per se, and I dunno if such a system would work in the UK.
As MsFab point out, the Australian system is (from what I can tell) based around a "career progression", the end point of which is competing and winning competitions.
But whilst I'm not a big fan of that particular path, at least there is a path, and dancers are encouraged to develop at all levels. Rather than the attitude of some franchisees over here, which has been expressed as "Don't bother with the advanced dancers, they'll only go over to salsa once they're bored anyway."
David - you had been doing so well. You hadn't had a go at competitions for a few days now.
Agree ,also
Most advance classes I've done are just moves where 95% of them you would need to practice with your partner for say part of a cabaret act. They have no practical use in freestyle with a unknowing partner
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