Forum: good or bad for beginners?

[drathzel]

indeed... although I am not a beginner at ceroc anymore, I am a beginner on this forum and yeah, it's kind of scary to post stuff here, it seems like all you guys know each other so well and are all best pals and stuff... feels a bit like being an... 'intrusion'?
anyway I guess I'll get over that

I didnt get a chance to think that, i jumped in and started posting before i realised that everyone knew everyone!

[Gadget]

So it's now a bad thing for the teacher to watch the class, observe mistakes being made, and correct them? For one of the students to do a little self-reflection, to see if he or she is making the mistakes is now paranoia?

did I say it was a bad thing?
All I was doing was pointing out the inherent paranoia that I think most beginners have when they start:
...that everyone is watching me when I'm dancing,
...that all the mistakes the teacher is pointing out are directed at me personally,
...that my partner is judging me on what I'm doing wrong,
...that people sitting out/waiting to rotate are talking about me and laughing at my dancing,
...
As I said before; perhaps it's just me that's paranoid. But as being shunned for a dance can lead to self-improvement, so can paranoia.

{BTW For beginner dancers, most/all of the above are delusions: it's only once you start being quite good that people watch you - and then it's very unlikley to be for criticism}

[ChrisA]

did I say it was a bad thing?
All I was doing was pointing out the inherent paranoia that I think most beginners have when they start:
...that everyone is watching me when I'm dancing,
...that all the mistakes the teacher is pointing out are directed at me personally,
...that my partner is judging me on what I'm doing wrong,
...that people sitting out/waiting to rotate are talking about me and laughing at my dancing,

I may be wrong, but my perception of beginners, and how they act in classes, is that this is nonsense.

They're certainly feeling foolish when they can't get it straightaway, particularly the guys, and of course they deserve all the encouragement we can give them if we've been around for a while, since as you say,

{BTW For beginner dancers, most/all of the above are delusions: it's only once you start being quite good that people watch you - and then it's very unlikley to be for criticism}

But this taking it all personally is largely fiction, I'd say. Mostly, they're doing what they can, feeling a bit inept, maybe, but mostly having a laugh and getting on with it.

As I said before; perhaps it's just me that's paranoid.

stuff like "I see some of you doing this..." and you always think was that me? am I doing that? must be me.

This happened to me last night. Amir was teaching, said exactly that, and, DOH! ... it was me.

But it meant I could fix the problem more or less immediately - far less embarrassing than not fixing it and continuing to do it wrong.

Those that are prepared to look closely at what they're doing, and respond to what's being taught are going to learn faster.

[tomboh]

Those that are prepared to look closely at what they're doing, and respond to what's being taught are going to learn faster.

Right, and this forum will help those who can cope with all its content but it will hinder those who feel overwhelmed.

I've only been dancing a year and a half and I'm a slow learner. I recently discovered this forum and I've learned lots.

But it would have scared me if I'd found the forum a year ago: linking four beginners moves together confused me horribly for a long time. I've met some people who pick things up much quicker, though. The forum might have suited them as beginners, but not me.

Different people appreciated different levels of detail at different times.

I've spent far too much time online and I'm used to just joining in new groups, but others less used to the Internet may feel less comfortable. If someone decides to flame my spelling, grammar or my knowledge, I can deal with it. From talking to less net-savvy friends, I know we don't all deal with things the same.

[ChrisA]

Right, and this forum will help those who can cope with all its content but it will hinder those who feel overwhelmed.

I think it's only overwhelming if you put pressure on yourself to absorb it all straight away, or if, as a beginner, you feel that you still need to contribute knowledgeably to discussions where some of the material is relatively advanced.

There's no need to do either of these... it's a great resource whether you just want to say Hi, indulge in chit-chat and find out where the cool venues are, or whether you want to delve into the rarefied atmosphere of weight distribution on the rock step back

The important thing is to recognise that you don't need to learn any faster, or participate any deeper than you want to, and where the right balance is for you is no one's business but your own.

I've only been dancing a year and a half and I'm a slow learner. I recently discovered this forum and I've learned lots.

Hey, and welcome
But I bet you're quicker than I was. I'd done three classes by the time 18 months had elapsed after the first one I went to, and I was still so rubbish that I could barely bring myself to go at all...

If someone decides to flame my spelling, grammar or my knowledge, I can deal with it. From talking to less net-savvy friends, I know we don't all deal with things the same.

Fair point. But I think you'll find that it's not the newbies whose spelling and grammar get flamed. In actual fact, it's just a very few people, and they've been around for ages, post at length and in great detail about some quite advanced topics.

The reason they get taken to task over it is nothing to do with the odd typo - it's to do with the fact that even with long, detailed posts about a topic that might be quite difficult, they still can't be bothered to take the trouble to make it easy for the audience (ie us) to read it, by ensuring that the spelling and grammar are reasonably Ok. This communicates an attitude that says "my typing time is more valuable than your reading time" - which if someone is trying to communicate something, tends to get people's backs up.

Anyway, be all this stuff as it may, welcome again. This place is a great resource, and there's plenty of variety. So just dip into it as much or as little as you like.

[tomboh]

I think it's only overwhelming if you put pressure on yourself to absorb it all straight away, or if, as a beginner, you feel that you still need to contribute knowledgeably to discussions where some of the material is relatively advanced.

...

The important thing is to recognise that you don't need to learn any faster, or participate any deeper than you want to

True, but it's much easier to state things like that after the event. Almost everyone I've danced with in their first few weeks seems very nervous, and that reminds me of how I used to feel.

There's so much to learn: it's like drinking from a firehose. A slower, consistent feed of information makes it easier to take in. Until you're ready to drink it all!

and where the right balance is for you is no one's business but your own.

I wonder what Bruce Lee would have to say about that.

Thanks for the friendly welcome

[Lory]

I'm not sure it's ALL positive.

Let me explain... When I first started Ceroc, I went to my local venue for 6 months, without the foggiest idea anything outside that club even existed And I was extremely happy.

I was grateful to everyone who danced with me and anyone who'd been dancing 3 months longer than me was an expert in my eyes I looked up to everyone.

Occasionally a 'really' good dancer would visit and i'd be in awe of them (man or woman) and each week as I got better and my confidence grew, I'd set myself little tasks, like i'm going to ask 'Joe bloggs' to dance... but not just yet , as I didn't feel good enough and felt I needed to get better to earn my dance, then when the day came, I was elated...

The next BIG thing.. someone mentioned an Ashtons freestyle... "all the good dancers go" "you have to be really good" etc. I can remember so clearly the excitement, everything was new, different music, a proper bar and woo hoo.... new faces.. I was like a kid in a candy store.

Each new stage was exciting, and little by little more exciting things were revealed.......Weekenders for example!!

I didn't have the views of any teachers, competition winners or dance gods to influence me, what was good, bad, cool or desirable, was totally in MY head.

I didn't know there was such vast differences in music styles, I had nothing to compare and I lived in blissful ignorance....

....until i discovered the forum!

BUT I think the timing for me was brilliant, i'd had my 'grounding' and was ready to have my eyes opened to a whole new world, (Wow, even people in Scotland dance Ceroc??? )

I'm really glad I didn't leapfrog all those special times I had in the beginning.

.................................................. ..............

Before I go on, I don't want ANYONE to take anything I say in this bit personally!!!!


Yesterday, I had a thought provoking conversation with another female forumite, who's been dancing considerably longer than me and we agreed, the ladies who join the forum very soon after starting Ceroc, can very quickly make friends and be dancing with the 'very best of the best', which I suspect would have rarely happened otherwise, just because they're members of the forum, not because they've worked their way up through the ranks, so to speak (which is brilliant for them ) BUT my worry is, that it's very hard to be satisfied with the local newby after...

Now, as I said, that's great for those women BUT the same doesn't work for the 'newby' man!

[WittyBird]

Yesterday, I had a thought provoking conversation with another female forumite, who's been dancing considerably longer than me and we agreed, the ladies who join the forum very soon after starting Ceroc, can very quickly make friends and be dancing with the 'very best of the best', which I suspect would have rarely happened otherwise, just because they're members of the forum, not because they've worked their way up through the ranks, so to speak (which is brilliant for them ) BUT my worry is, that it's very hard to be satisfied with the local newby after...

Now, as I said, that's great for those women BUT the same doesn't work for the 'newby' man!

I would totally agree with that. In fact I am probably one of them. I have been blessed with dancing with some pure 'gods' to which I am eternally grateful, which I doubt would've happened if I wasn't on here. I have met some fantastic people (not mentioning names). I cherish every dance I have. I always make an effort to dance with all the beginners as well and I really enjoy it. I think everyone needs encouragement no matter what level they are at.

[bigdjiver]

So, should I just tell the ladies that the forum exists?

[David Bailey]

So, should I just tell the ladies that the forum exists?

Yeah, 'coz what we really need is less men improving, there's too many of them anyway.

I think the only significant problem with the forum from a beginner's perspective is that it sometimes gives a distorted view of what the MJ world is really like. Forum posters are unrepresentative of a normal MJ crowd, and may (do) have different opinions from most MJ dancers in some areas (for example, music tastes).

Experienced dancers will know more about the scene, should hopefully be aware of this distortion and make allowances for it. Beginners may not.

So it's possible that some people who encountering the forum first (before dancing), or whilst just starting out to learn, may get the wrong impression.

[robd]

I joined the forum on 11th May last year which was about 4 months on from my first class - I must have picked up more of an interest in dancing by this point since I remember discovering the link for the forum whilst searching for Ceroc DVDs on Google. I also remember (due to the link I followed from Google which then went into my Favourites) thinking that the forum contained only the 5 subforums under Ceroc/dance technical discussions (No chit-chat or Social Events!) until I posted my impressions of MJC in the wrong subforum 2 months later.

I found the forum useful initially for advice on technique and for realising that others had experienced the same issues I was facing as I tried to improve my dancing. However I have never tried to push the forum to others at my regular venue as I believe that anybody who is likely to want to use an Internet discussion group about Ceroc really should have no trouble finding it.

Robert

[LMC]

I don't believe that beginner dancers have a problem getting dances. But "lower-range" intermediates frequently seem to. Everyone wants to encourage beginners. They usually haven't managed to acquire deeply-engrained bad habits and even someone who's been dancing less than a year, like me, can be confident enough to feed back to them about improvement areas. I never have a problem dancing with beginners.

But I freely admit that I often avoid asking some lower-end intermediates (although will never refuse them), even if I sought them out just a few weeks before when they were beginners. "New intermediates" are often anxious to acquire and practise as many moves as possible, some of these moves are at least painful and at worst dangerous when led incorrectly, and they are harder to 'break' of habits such as gripping or bouncing hands (and they have enough experience to say "no-one else has complained" ). I would rather dance a favourite track with an absolute beginner or sit it out altogether than be dragged through a series of poorly led pretzels. Some "lower intermediates" are a pure joy to dance with in comparison. But I think that they can miss out if there are a lot of beginners and/or a large number of better leaders at an event as it's the beginners and advanced dancers that women will seek out. (Would be interested to hear from the guys on this, apologies in advance if this perception is mistaken.)

Before I go on, I don't want ANYONE to take anything I say in this bit personally!!!!

((Lucky beginner women finding the forum ))

Actually, I do take this "personally". Because it's spot on, well said Lory.

I was fortunate enough to dance with some amazing dancers and get lots of help from the wonderful people on here, all of which has improved my dancing no end. So occasionally, I feel quite dissatisfied with some of my local venues - never to the extent that I get hotshotty and turn people down, but although I never regret going to a regular class night, I sometimes go home feeling like I've "missed out". I recognised this in myself a couple of months ago now and deliberately cut down going to events where a large number of forumites would be present. As a result, I'm much more tolerant and patient with lower-range intermediates than I was two months ago. I don't want to get into the place where I'm dissatisfied with a "normal" night because I've been spoiled by fabulous events with large numbers of forumites present.

Now, as I said, that's great for those women BUT the same doesn't work for the 'newby' man!

I agree that they are more likely to be intimidated by dancing with a great follower where a follower would be inspired by dancing with a great leader. But I would really like to hear an opinion from more of the guys who did join the forum as beginners - because as a "lower intermediate", encouragement from people on here may be what made all the difference to them and have turned some of them into the lovely leads that they are. Some have discussed their beginner experience - but the more I think about it, the more I am convinced it's new-ish intermediates who fall by the wayside.

[MartinHarper]

My first post was shortly after I made the transition from JazzJive to Ceroc, so I was unfamiliar with Ceroc, and relatively unfamiliar with dancing. My recollection:

Too scary: all these godlike dancers talking about center of gravity and funky things

Didn't bother me so much. There's normally someone restating such things in simpler terms, and if not there's always the option to ignore it and wait till later.

Not relevant: nothing much to tell me about getting started

Nah, seemed to be plenty of well-meaning advice about getting started. Maybe not that good, coming from folks who started decades ago, but it was there. And folks did answer questions I had about transferring over.

Too nasty: all these vicious flamewars (OK, I exaggerate, sue me)

Yeah, this bugged me.

Too cliquey: all these people talking about, ahem, cliquey things

This, not so much. Back then, I mostly read dance-related ancient threads, and threads I'd started, so it seemed a small thing, proportionally.

From experience I know that you have to be thick-skinned if you dare to express a naive opinion you've formed. People who might have forgotten what it's like to be a beginner are liable to put you back in your place sharpish.

Well, yeah that. The big deterrent, for me, was the feeling that I was intruding on the discussion of uber-dancers. I felt like I needed a standard disclaimer on my posts - "just a beginner, wrong about everything, don't listen to me, listen to the clever guy who will post next."
No doubt I make the same mistake now I've been on the forum a bit longer.

[MartinHarper]

...that everyone is watching me when I'm dancing.

Generally not. Thinking that I'm being watched really messes up my dancing, though. Maybe I should enter some competition to help fix this.

...that all the mistakes the teacher is pointing out are directed at me personally

Sometimes, but rarely. I recall one teacher saying "not you", and feeling relieved.

...that my partner is judging me on what I'm doing wrong

Yep. I still sometimes feel like that when I dance with someone I've not danced with before.

...that people sitting out/waiting to rotate are talking about me and laughing at my dancing

Definately. I still feel that from time to time. Not all of them, all the time, but maybe a few, some of the time.

[ducasi]

Now, as I said, that's great for those women BUT the same doesn't work for the 'newby' man!

It worked for me... I had a few of the best ladies in Glasgow chasing after me to dance with me. That wouldn't have happened had I not joined the forum...

[Lynn]

I mentioned the forum to a beginner friend when chatting over dinner this week and they have joined - will be interesting to get their opinion on its usefulness as they start to attend beginners classes.

[Lee]

The forum is a terrible thing for productivity at work.

Bad with a capital D

The forum should be kept a secret until pass their exams

Lee

[TheTramp]

The forum should be kept a secret until pass their exams

Tell me about it.

Though, I did just find out that I passed them all last semester

[drathzel]

I mentioned the forum to a beginner friend when chatting over dinner this week and they have joined - will be interesting to get their opinion on its usefulness as they start to attend beginners classes.

Which one? I take it we are talking about Ceroc N.I member? (sorry i just had to get that in there)

[Lynn]

Which one?

Hopefully she will post soon (if we haven't scared her off already!).