View Poll Results: I have...

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  • ...been seriously injured as a result of my partner overestimating their abilities.

    9 23.08%
  • ...had one or more minor injuries as a result of my partner's misjudgment of their own ability

    17 43.59%
  • ...never been injured because my partner thought they were better than they were.

    13 33.33%
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Thread: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

  1. #1
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    I know Gus feels strongly about this question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    I would like to see dancers vetted before joining 'advanced' classes. It would save a lot of injury and wasted time as well as putting a few egos back to the level they should be at.
    I'm curious how many people have found themselves injured as a result of someone else misjudging their own experience level. I suppose I mean how many people here have been injured because the person they were dancing with over-estimated their own abilities? That excludes being kicked, or stepped on during a dance, and excludes being hurt in a situation where you were responsible for the error.

    For the sake of argument, let's say that a serious injury is one that was still causing pain a week later, or needed professional treatment.

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I know Gus feels strongly about this question:I'm curious how many people have found themselves injured as a result of someone else misjudging their own experience level. I suppose I mean how many people here have been injured because the person they were dancing with over-estimated their own abilities? That excludes being kicked, or stepped on during a dance, and excludes being hurt in a situation where you were responsible for the error.

    For the sake of argument, let's say that a serious injury is one that was still causing pain a week later, or needed professional treatment.
    No serious injuries, but I've had plenty of minor ones. I've also had old injuries aggravated, such as back pain caused by ladies throwing themselves into unled drops. That has sometimes lasted several days. I've had my arms hurt by ladies turning anti-clockwise when I'm leading them clockwise, and by ladies holding my hand too tight in a turn (and that's not just from raw beginners either).

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    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    No injury from any one specific incident/event or action. However, I was sustaining some manner of damage to my left shoulder, almost certainly due to (mostly) inexperienced ladies pulling back on their step back ... and also, trying to assist beginner ladies in their turns, etc .... especially those (thankfully few) who move very little.

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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I'm curious how many people have found themselves injured as a result of someone else misjudging their own experience level.
    I may have inadvertantly been the person to inflict damage on someone; basically in over-leading (ie being forcefull) a second turn instead of leading it properly and letting the lady turn in her own time. I really hope her shoulder recovered quickly and it wasn't too damaging - but it shook me up a bit and made me a bit more attentive from then on.

    I've had lady's try and throw themselves into dips, but can usually abort the move before "the point of no return" where you have to let her fall or take the weight un-prepared.
    Setting up of any move that will take a proportion of the lady's weight is vitally important ~ If I don't have the preperation done, I don't do the move.
    In these sort of moves, I trust the lady to trust me: she should feel support and "give herself" to it following the same lead/follow rules as the rest of the dance - equal the pressure and feel the tension. I will lower her in my time: if it's slow, she will feel me supporting her and lowering her. If it's quicker, the lead is the same, but the support is matching her momentum and working as a cushoned hault to the descent.
    In the same breath, the lead is still maintained through a connection - a two way connection. If the lady is not trusting (or does not want to be put into any dips), then the connection will lighten instead of firming up and the move is finished there or aborted into another move.
    {If the lead maintains the same connection without lightening or firming up, then the follower is taking her own weight and the lead changes to a "support" frame for her balance rather than a "strong" frame to take her weight.}

    For any excessive pulling or pushing within the connection, there should simply be a "tensile breaking point" that the grip slips and connection is broken.

    For 'gripping' hands, use the last two segments of the fingers for the connection, some virtual grease and occasionally your own thumbs on the inside of your hands to prise the lady's grip away.

    I've wrenched my own shoulder, and tried to spin on sticky floors, but so far my sense of self-preservation has kept me from anything worse than leading the ladys to tread on my toes. {touch wood }

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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    I do not like the "because" element of the questions. It calls for a judgement on what my partner was thinking / feeling, and those judgements can be very unreliable, especially when one is in pain or bleeding. Ladies have drawn blood with sharp nails, once worryingly near to my eye, but I just take it as part of the scene. They learned, I learned, and I take my opportunities, like now, to point out that long nails can be dangerous.

    The dance with the blonde that cut me near my eye was one of my Ceroc high points. We were both going for it big-time, and I just hoped, in vain, to meet up with her again. She said "No pain, no gain", a bit hard, I doubt it would have been that way if it was her bleeding, but that is the truth of the matter if you try arials.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Quote Originally Posted by gus
    I would like to see dancers vetted before joining 'advanced' classes. It would save a lot of injury and wasted time as well as putting a few egos back to the level they should be at.
    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I know Gus feels strongly about this question:I'm curious how many people have found themselves injured as a result of someone else misjudging their own experience level.
    Note that Gus is talking about advanced classes (whatever they are). I don't think there's a huge problem in normal intermediate classes (though accidents definitely do happen). With classes outside of the norm, here's some of what I've experienced:

    (a) Dips/drops workshops. You are very limited in what you can teach unless you can assume people are reasonably good at the basic mechanics (i.e. supporting and taking weight). It's why I'm really unconvinced about doing these in rotation - at some point you get someone who really doesn't understand their part, and you can easily get hurt.

    (b) Aerials. First off, I'll admit there is undeniably an element of risk doing the larger aerials however you teach and vet the students. Having said that, most accidents are avoidable. Most injuries I've seen in classses have been due to poor spotting - where the spotters just stand there while the girl they were supposed to be protecting crashes to the ground. Call me selfish, but I am much happier when I can get an experienced couple to spot for us. But the more frustrating thing in terms of teaching is that even if you say you'll be teaching "Advanced Aerials", you will get people turning up (anecdotally, in high heels ) who have never done an aerial in their lives.

    (c) WCS Classes. This has actually got a bit better, but a couple of years ago when WCS had just started it's resurgence, the intermediate WCS class would be plagued by MJ dancers who decided to skip the beginner class. They wouldn't know any of the basic moves, they would ignore/mutilate the timing, and they would bounce (again with incorrect timing). And I would then have to apologise to the next 2 follows because it would take me that long to "un-MJ" myself again. [N.B. this is the "waste of time" category, rather than injury].

    It's not a huge list - but then there aren't that many "advanced" classes around. And part of the problem Gus is citing is that it's really hard to plan a safe, useful advanced class when you have no real control over the people who turn up.

    Looking at the parent thread about testing, one thing that hasn't been brought up with regards to Australia is that from my experiences in Sydney, at any rate, the beginners class is considerably more difficult than it is here - the class did pretzels and leans, for example. So having tests to go into intermediate in Australia is more akin to tests for advanced over here. And I think there's a much clearer motivation for testing at that point. It means they are able to teach the intermediate class in a way that would have people dropping like flies over here! [I recall a very crowded class in Mosman, where a deep seducer-type drop was taught. The only reason there was space was because everyone did it in sync - a bit like domino-toppling except we all got up again! Not sure I approve of that under any circumstances, but it would have been crazy to even consider it in the UK].

  7. #7
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I do not like the "because" element of the questions. It calls for a judgement on what my partner was thinking
    Very true and it's not a very scientifically posed question. I just wanted to make a an effort to count the number of times people have been hurt and felt it was down to someone trying and failing in a move that they should have known better than to try. I don't think the results go to show very much except to satisfy my curiosity.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Note that Gus is talking about advanced classes (whatever they are).
    Yes, he is. I don't think he's necessarily wrong, either. But there's no cast iron distinction between an advanced class or an intermediate class. If people are being hurt because of standard 'mismatches' or 'misunderstandings' then there's a more urgent cause of action than otherwise.

  8. #8
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    But there's no cast iron distinction between an advanced class or an intermediate class. If people are being hurt because of standard 'mismatches' or 'misunderstandings' then there's a more urgent cause of action than otherwise.
    [META]
    Seems awkward discussing this in two places. I'm going to continue any discussion of testing, intermediate/advanced etc. in the parent thread.
    (Probably should have done that in the 1st place - sorry ).
    [/META]

  9. #9
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Had my right second finger pulled by a clingon damaged tendons up to the elbow. pain for a week defensive for months and still wary.

  10. #10
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Very true and it's not a very scientifically posed question. I just wanted to make a an effort to count the number of times people have been hurt and felt it was down to someone trying and failing in a move that they should have known better than to try. I don't think the results go to show very much except to satisfy my curiosity.
    I think the number of people who can pinpoint such a serious injury down to a single cause will be small.

    However, lots of people I know have had injury problems with shoulders and backs - and if they're dancing properly, with experienced leaders / followers, they shouldn't have such problems.

    So it's more of a long-term problem, which gets incrementally worse every time your shoulder gets wrenched back - you won't be able to say "It was HIM / HER that did it", but you can make a case for saying "it was THEM". If that makes sense...

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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    It would be (moderately) interesting to see if the figures were different for men vs women, and whether they were different for intermediates vs advanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Dips/drops workshops. You are very limited in what you can teach unless you can assume people are reasonably good at the basic mechanics (i.e. supporting and taking weight).
    I had always assumed that if I wanted to learn dips and drops properly, I would be best served by going to a dips and drops workshop. It seems I should re-evaluate this assumption. Where should I learn the basic mechanics of dips and drops, if not at a dips and drops workshop?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    The intermediate WCS class would be plagued by MJ dancers who decided to skip the beginner class.
    Sometimes there is a little confusion in class names. For example, does "West Coast Swing - Intermediate" at an MJ event mean a basic class in WCS for intermediate level MJ folk, or does it mean an intermediate class in WCS for intermediate level WCS folk?
    In my experience, it could mean either, and dancers have to guess based on what other classes are being offered. This sort of problem could be avoided if organisers provided proper descriptions of their events.

  12. #12
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    I have damaged my knee in an advanced class once ... pretty badly too. But it was also my fault. I had seen that the other person ould not do that required 'flip' in the move beforehand and still tried it. Annoying was that she (pretty large person) did not actually realise that she was slowly killing the male attendance of the class. But everybody (incl. me) could have jus said: no, I'll wait that one out. So in a way it was my own stupidity.

  13. #13
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Dips/drops workshops. You are very limited in what you can teach unless you can assume people are reasonably good at the basic mechanics (i.e. supporting and taking weight).
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    I had always assumed that if I wanted to learn dips and drops properly, I would be best served by going to a dips and drops workshop. It seems I should re-evaluate this assumption. Where should I learn the basic mechanics of dips and drops, if not at a dips and drops workshop?
    Simply put, in a "beginners" dips/drops workshop (where you would expect the teacher to concentrate on basic technique), rather than an intermediate or advanced one. I also think the more difficult drops are best taught with a fixed partner.

    Note that I wasn't saying "dips/drops/aerials workshops are bad", just making the observation that at those kinds of workshops you see lot of problems with people doing them who aren't really ready for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    I have damaged my knee in an advanced class once ... pretty badly too. But it was also my fault. I had seen that the other person ould not do that required 'flip' in the move beforehand and still tried it. Annoying was that she (pretty large person) did not actually realise that she was slowly killing the male attendance of the class. But everybody (incl. me) could have jus said: no, I'll wait that one out. So in a way it was my own stupidity.
    This is another good reason for fixed partners. Much, much easier to decide "this move isn't for us" when you're not rotating.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Sometimes there is a little confusion in class names. For example, does "West Coast Swing - Intermediate" at an MJ event mean a basic class in WCS for intermediate level MJ folk, or does it mean an intermediate class in WCS for intermediate level WCS folk?
    In my experience, it could mean either, and dancers have to guess based on what other classes are being offered. This sort of problem could be avoided if organisers provided proper descriptions of their events.
    I would say if you have several classes scheduled over an event, starting with "beginner WCS" and going through "improver" to "intermediate" it's actually pretty obvious. And usually the beginner class says something like "for those new to WCS", which is a fair clue. But however you describe the classes, for a sizeable proportion of people, it won't make any difference - the "I'm an advanced dancer - I can pick it up" mentality is pretty common.

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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    A few years ago I'm sure I hurt a follower when I lead a backhander badly - I raised her arm at the wrong time on the turn out. I felt the wrench, so Lord knows what she felt. I apologised profusely, she said she was OK and we continued the dance. Afterwards she left the floor rubbing her shoulder and I don't remember seeing her dancing again that evening. It really shook me up and I got Nelson to run me through backhanders the following week - even so, I don't use the move very often.

    A lobster once put me into an aikido wrist lock - her 2nd or 3rd week I think and we'd just done the catapult in the beginners class. I swept her behind me and she held on, and held on and held on, refusing to let my hand turn in hers. It was a very effective lock and I didn't dance for 3 weeks afterwards.

    The only time I've been hurt in an advanced class was my own stupid fault; not listening to teacher and getting my hand in the wrong position for a drop. I'd done the move before and thought I knew what I was doing - that "advanced" mentality is dangerous. No harm came to the follower but it certainly hurt me. When Nelson is teaching that drop now he uses my stupidity to emphasise the importance of listening and watching!

    The only other injuries I've seen in one of Nelson's advanced classes was when Tina kicked Phil between the eyes and subsequently kneed him in the groin in the course of a single aerials workshop. ("charleston handstand" followed by the, not so advanced, "rock & roll split jump"). It was impressive stuff but no serious damage done! Tina was just having an "off day" I think and didn't do what we'd been told and practiced before doing the moves in real time. Phil was walking normally again in no time.
    Last edited by JonD; 14th-September-2006 at 09:56 AM. Reason: must remember the difference between singular and plural

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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Iam gonna come at this from another angle, I know the questions are geared to toward partner misjudgement but I want bring in the concept of overuse injury. This type of injury is usually related to sports however in the advanced/competition dancer category it is much more likely to happen.

    For starters they will be dancing/practising more times a week than youre average punter, they will likely be practising moves that are more complex and
    may require lifting, dropping or counteracting the movement of a mass.

    I am sure there is a pre-disposition to certain injury types, should we just accept that those who dance in this category will at some stage be at the physio and that some suffering for ones art/sport is inevitable.

  16. #16
    TiggsTours
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    Whiplash and concussion from someone doing a very fast seducer on me, who for some bizarre reason also decided to bring his knee up in the air at the same time!

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    Registered User Daisy Chain's Avatar
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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    I'm currently suffering from a bruised coccyx caused by a very enthusiastic man slamming my bony @rse into one of those naff "sit" moves. All I can say is that I must have sat on something really hard.

    Daisy

    (An Uncushioned Little Flower)

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    Re: Have you ever been injured because of someone's (avoidable) inexperience?

    There is a responsibility on both parties when it comes to exisiting injuries. I was dancing with a lady who I'd danced with regularly and I knew she liked drops. Maybe I should have asked if drops were OK but in my defense we'd danced many times and done all sorts of complicated moves. I put her into a drop and she screamed with pain. I immediately stopped and she explained she had an injured shoulder. My point is she should have told me and I wouldn't have done the move.

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