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Thread: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

  1. #41
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    OK, here's serious response to make up for my earlier frivolity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    To clarify, if a teacher persistently talks about not dancing with a shaped lead hand and utilising a more finger-tip-type-touch, then is it really their fault if people in the line's don't listen and continue to grip on for grim death?
    Good question.

    Pragmatically, no - in a typical large-class teaching environment (i.e. 50-100 pupils) there's no chance to correct individual mistakes. I imagine it's hard enough in that sort of environment just to move them along 10 women or whatever and stop the beggars chatting nineteen to the dozen.

    On the other hand, the teacher always has some responsbility, and a lot of influence, over the styling and dancing of the dancers at that venue - individual teachers often stamp their individual styles on classes over a long-ish period. So in theory, if there were a larger-than-average percentage of death-grippers in a particular class, then yes, the teacher would bear some responsibility for that.

    There's an analogy to the "It's always the leader's fault if it goes wrong" saying, to me - i.e. it's a simplistic statement, but there's some truth in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exaclty what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.
    I'd love a format where the teacher regularly spent a specific amount of time (say, 5 minutes in the middle of every intermediate class) simply demonstrating a single style point; handhold, compression, tension, frame, etc.. He/she could easily do this by only teaching 3 moves instead of 4 - and I think it'd make a massive difference.

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    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou

    ...... However, having been to his large Cheltenham class, I've encountered a larger proportion of grippers & dippers.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames

    ..... So in theory, if there were a larger-than-average percentage of death-grippers in a particular class, then yes, the teacher would bear some responsibility for that.
    No-one who has seen H teach and freestyle could imagine those bad habits would be due to his example. The man is the very picture of relaxed dancing and delicate hold.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    ...I'd love a format where the teacher regularly spent a specific amount of time (say, 5 minutes in the middle of every intermediate class) simply demonstrating a single style point; handhold, compression, tension, frame, etc.. He/she could easily do this by only teaching 3 moves instead of 4 - and I think it'd make a massive difference.
    I had the same brilliant idea some time ago, then realised that Michaela regularly suggested style points into a class. The extent of this method had escaped me (obviously )To those struggling with the moves it seemed to go down as "blah blah", and gave them an opportunity to collect their thoughts or chat with partner . To the more attentive it was an opportunity to improve their style. Certainly Marc and Paul of Ceroc Central also teach style along with the moves. Others may do so too, but my mind is usually elsewhere at other venues.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    However, if a teacher does a demo and then constantly overturns at the end to reflect 'their style' then I reckon they are then responsibly for their class all overturning. Without doubt, what people see happening on stage they try to reciprocate (sp?) on the floor, be it all good or all bad, in effect learning a teacher's bad habits!

    To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exaclty what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.
    I'm not sure that I agree with this.

    If a class never sees a 'style' being taught, then they never learn. It can sometimes be quite easy to spot people who predominantly learn from one teacher, by the style and moves they do (Viktor being a case in point - it has been easy to spot people who've only been taught by Viktor).

    But I'd say that this isn't necessarily a bad thing - as long as the teacher doesn't have that many bad habits (impossible not to say 'any', as we all have bad habits!). After all, isn't it better to have some style, even if it's copied off someone else, than to have no style at all?

    And also, what may be seen as 'bad' style by someone, may be seen as 'good' style by someone else. I remember one teacher in London (who shall remain nameless) who actively used to teach girls to turn and follow their arms (I believe that this is what you mean by 'overturning'), and there are plenty of other people who do it too. Because you or I or even the majority don't like it, doesn't mean that it's bad (yes, I'll agree that it might make the next move harder to lead sometimes, but I can live with that. Mostly!). It's all personal preference - if you like it, do it I say (within limits!)

    As people get better, and absorb more information from other sources, they will start to develop their own style, and decide what is right for them. But if they never got to see different styles being taught, then it may be harder for them to develop their own.

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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    It's all personal preference - if you like it, do it I say (within limits!)
    I can't see it this way. To reduce it all to some egalitarian "every subjective view is just as valid as every other" is to make any concept of "getting to be a better dancer" totally meaningless.

    I mean, you could argue that all the rhythmless - even beat-less - *******s - out there are just as good as the Nureyevs and Astaires of this world, just with different preferences.

    But it's your "within limits" that gives the game away - you're just as conscious of a blurred-at-the-edges-but-nevertheless-real objectivity as the rest of us.

    Funnily enough, there's a teacher whose style (in freestyle) is as unique as Viktor's yet teaches with no superimposed style at all.

    It's Amir.

    When James says:

    I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less'
    ... I think he's spot on.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard
    No-one who has seen H teach and freestyle could imagine those bad habits would be due to his example. The man is the very picture of relaxed dancing and delicate hold.
    The guy is so laid back, he never even looks at his partner!

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    I can't see it this way. To reduce it all to some egalitarian "every subjective view is just as valid as every other" is to make any concept of "getting to be a better dancer" totally meaningless.

    I mean, you could argue that all the rhythmless - even beat-less - *******s - out there are just as good as the Nureyevs and Astaires of this world, just with different preferences.

    But it's your "within limits" that gives the game away - you're just as conscious of a blurred-at-the-edges-but-nevertheless-real objectivity as the rest of us.

    Funnily enough, there's a teacher whose style (in freestyle) is as unique as Viktor's yet teaches with no superimposed style at all.

    It's Amir.
    Please don't be silly

    If everyone danced in the same way, and we were all clones, then it would be very boring. There are many styles which are different. But all equally valid in making people great, good, or even just average but acceptable dancers. And hence "every subjective view is just as valid as every other", within limits - the limits being those things that make a dance unpleasant - lack of timing, jerking etc.

    Nigel has a subjective view about the way he wants to dance. So does Viktor. So does Amir. So do you. So do I. We're not all the same. Does that mean that we're not all good dancers? Does doing things in our different styles make the concept of "getting to be a better dancer" totally meaningless?

    And I'm sorry, but you can't be serious about saying that Amir doesn't put his own style onto the moves he's teaching when he teaches. That's a ridiculous claim. You mean, when he teaches a move, it doesn't look like him teaching, could be any person up there on the stage. In that case, why do you keep on raving about him as a teacher? If all he's doing is teaching you moves, then it could be anyone who teaches moves. What he does, surely, is teach you how to do moves 'with style'. Which is obviously his style. Or does he teach you how to do moves in someone else's style? In which case, why not keep going on about the someone else?

    In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Amir is one of the most stylish dancers I've seen when he's teaching. Which is why I think that people like you keep raving on about his teaching....
    Last edited by TheTramp; 28th-December-2005 at 12:01 PM.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jive Brummie
    To a degree, I think the teacher needs to demo and dance on stage completely 'style-less' unless doing a style oriented class, in order for the students to really see exactly what they're s'posed to do in a clear concise way.j.
    Mostly agree with JB when it comes to teaching beginners. When it comes to the taxi refresher class, what you find (particularly with leaders) is that they start imposing some sort of 'style' of their own onto it right away, which is typically just bad execution on their part. Standing on your own and letting your follower dance around you could be called a style, after all, but most would agree it's a bad one. Likewise dancing big, taking huge steps and big lunges, is a style, but not a good one for the social dancefloor. Or am I now in the grey area between mechanics and style called 'technique' - see various old threads...and cue more Zen-like mysticism about the word 'style'

    I end up saying to dancers in the early stages (first half-dozen lessons) to think of things mechanically, e.g .with a return 'step in, hand up, lady returns, once she faces you, hand down, step back'. The word style never gets mentioned. As they get more confident with the mechanics, they relax, start fitting it to the beat better, and a genuine style might begin to emerge.

    In intermediate lessons, however, my (h) opinion differs. A teacher should then be able to demonstrate more than one style, surely, rather than simply none? That way, dancers learn how certain moves and techniques fit certain kinds of music.

  9. #49
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    And I'm sorry, but you can't be serious about saying that Amir doesn't put his own style onto the moves he's teaching when he teaches. That's a ridiculous claim. You mean, when he teaches a move, it doesn't look like him teaching, could be any person up there on the stage. In that case, why do you keep on raving about him as a teacher? If all he's doing is teaching you moves, then it could be anyone who teaches moves. What he does, surely, is teach you how to do moves 'with style'. Which is obviously his style. Or does he teach you how to do moves in someone else's style? In which case, why not keep going on about the someone else?

    In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Amir is one of the most stylish dancers I've seen when he's teaching. Which is why I think that people like you keep raving on about his teaching....
    I've obviously not been clear enough. But I'm not being silly, or making ridiculous claims. And no, of course I don't mean any of the nonsense words you've tried to put in my mouth above.

    Let me try and be a bit more specific.

    When he demonstrates the move he's about to teach, yes, absolutely, he dances it with his very unique style, and it's a joy to watch. And when he's dancing in freestyle, it's like that, but even more so.

    But when he breaks the move down for the purposes of teaching it, what he actually does is a very minimalist version of the move, with the technique points demonstrated and described, with the two matching perfectly. If he says take three steps, he takes three steps, and that's all he does. If he says to hold the lady with your arm all the way round her waist, then that's what he does.

    But what he does not do, and in my experience is one of a tiny minority of teachers who don't, is add in what I'm calling a superimposed style - where they do stuff in the move that they are not teaching.

    For example, some female Ceroc teachers I've seen will say "return and step back" at the end of the move, but they don't step back. They do a kind of twist and then step forward, and it can look very stylish, but it's not what they've just said, and it's not part of the technique they're trying to teach.

    All I'm saying about Amir, as I perceive what he does, is that he does exactly what he teaches while he's teaching it. It's still just as fluid and poised as when he's dancing it or demoing it, and you can call that part of his style if you like, and I wouldn't disagree. It's the add-on stuff that people do but don't teach (and often describe something completely different while they're doing it) that is entirely absent from Amir's teaching.

    I suppose I'm distinguishing too between technique and style, but that's a different argument.

    Edit: Actually I'm not so sure it's a different argument!
    Last edited by ChrisA; 28th-December-2005 at 12:54 PM.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.”
    Benjamin Franklin

    Most of the discussion on this thread seems to be about what the teacher demonstrates from the stage. Many of the replies point out that teachers do insert style and technique tips into their classes, but a majority of the class seem unwilling and/or unable to take in the teaching.

    I know that this harks back to previous threads but, unless the teacher and demo are prepared to get out on the floor after the lesson, dance with the class members and, most importantly, correct their mistakes, then most will not realise that they are making the mistakes that the teacher is talking about from the stage.

    This applies especially to dancing with the long-term intermediates currently being discussed on another thread.

    I have read what has been written about some teachers working the floor well but, in my limited experience, I have seen little hands on teaching of this sort.

    If it does not happen much why not? Do teachers not think it is appropriate to criticise in social dancing? Do teachers only tend to dance with the beginners, so not see the deeply ingrained mistakes intermediates are making?

    On a slightly different slant, much research shows that the most important influence on children's attitudes and behaviours is their peer group. An analogy of this in the dance situation would be that the most important influence on a dancers style is the people they dance socially with.

    To that extent you could say that the responsibility for bad habits lies with the peer group. However, the teacher would be able to influence the habits of the group as a whole by becoming part of the social dancing group and improving it from within. If they are not doing this, then the responsibility for any bad habits does indeed lie with the teacher.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Something I've just thought of....

    A teacher and his/her demo may, if they're lucky get around to dancing with everyone in the class once...possibly even twice during the night, depending on size of class. So say for example I or Melanie had 'adjusted' somebody and we'd had only one chance to do this all night...is it still my fault that they then revert back to their original self as soon as we walk away and dance with somebody else...or do the rest of the class members have a responsibility to ensure the 'new adjusted' standard is then maintained?

    We don't half rely on our long term intermediates don't we!!!!

    j.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I had the same brilliant idea some time ago, then realised that Michaela regularly suggested style points into a class.
    Yeah, but if it's to make a difference on a large scale, it would have to be mandated as part of the national "curriculum" thingy as defined every year by Ceroc HQ, rather than depending on the efforts of individual teachers.

    So my idea, which is even more brilliant ( ), is that Ceroc HQ puts this in as part of the standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard
    No-one who has seen H teach and freestyle could imagine those bad habits would be due to his example. The man is the very picture of relaxed dancing and delicate hold.
    I've not seen H (H? What sort of a name is that? ), so I can't comment - but yes, IMO, in theory at least, teachers have responsibility for the general actions of their classes, in MJ as in every other discipline.

    So, getting back on topic, my answer to the original question would be "Yes" - or, at least "Yes to a point".

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    {snipped}
    So, getting back on topic, my answer to the original question would be "Yes" - or, at least "Yes to a point".
    I assume then, that where one blames a teacher for a pupils "bad" habit, that conversely , you could praise them for the good habits ?

    The fact is that Ceroc caters for a mass market - there are many methods by which one can improve if one wants to . The number of times you can point out the same thing to the same people becomes a little tiring - as has been said earlier in the thread, if someone is happy with the way they dance then they'll keep dancing like that.

    Personally, I believe that a well timed verbal delivery from a dance partner has much more affect .. as in " OUCHHHH, that hurt - you shouldn't use your bloody thumb - you've been dancing long enough to know that!" would probably end up with a much longer term affect than the "There are no thumbs in Ceroc" patter.

    On that line it might be an idea for an example to be given in every beginners class - ie the ladies lead the men into a move whilst pinching down with their thumb - as they say "no pain no gain" !


    just my hapennies worth

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin
    I assume then, that where one blames a teacher for a pupils "bad" habit, that conversely , you could praise them for the good habits ?
    I think that's simplistic - but yes, a teacher has some responsibility for development and practices of the student's at that venue. As do the Taxi dancers, as does the demo, and even the experienced dancers at that venue.

    So you could quantify it as, for example only, for dancer styles:
    - 30% may be teacher-inspired
    - 30% may be down to individual disposition
    - 20% may be taxi-dancer-inspired
    - 20% may be inspired by other dancers

    So, the answer to the question is "30%" (or whatever the percentage is).

    If a particular individual is making a mistake, or is dancing well, it's impossible to tell why.

    But if a group of dancers at a venue are making more-than-average mistakes, or are dancing better than average, then IMO there's a chance it's down to the teacher, yes.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I think that's simplistic - but yes, a teacher has some responsibility for development and practices of the student's at that venue. As do the Taxi dancers, as does the demo, and even the experienced dancers at that venue.
    Isn't there a difference between the responsability and the contribution? The taxis may in a position to make a significant impact to the 'style' of a venue, but it's down to the teacher to ensure that they do.

    Conversely, the teacher doesn't automatically get credit for a very competant taxi crew who should be able to make up for a very 'average' teacher.

    Part of the 'problem' with diferentiating venues and blaming the teacher for bad habits is that there seems to be a very large overlap of punters between venues (at least round here) which must be a bit of a moderating factor...

    Sean

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Another grocer's apostrophe? - MODERATOR - someone is posing as DJ can't imagine why they would want to...

    Overlaps of punters at venues make it clear that it can't be all down to the teacher/taxis IMO. I think it's mostly up to the individuals themselves. If they are not getting what they need out of teaching at a venue and they really want to improve their dancing, they will - by going to different venues and seeking out different teachers/modes of teaching.

    That's what most of us have done after all.

    It's only mostly up to the individuals though - teachers/taxis do have to take some responsibility for making sure that the information people need is available to them - by actually teaching the correct handhold, for example (there are a number of venues that don't ).

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    I think it's mostly up to the individuals themselves. If they are not getting what they need out of teaching at a venue and they really want to improve their dancing, they will - by going to different venues and seeking out different teachers/modes of teaching.
    I think you'r'e' confusing the population on the forum with the general dancing population. There might be a few bad habits in here, but the whole forum's probably got about 1 venue's worth of bad habits between them!

    Sean

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Nope, IMO any learning has to be the responsibility of the individual more than the teacher - you can lead a horse to water and all that.

    People may be unaware of their bad habits - particularly if they only go to one venue where the teacher may not cover essentials. But given the overlap of punters between venues I don't think this can really be used as an excuse - the information is out there for those who want to find it.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh
    Isn't there a difference between the responsability and the contribution? The taxis may in a position to make a significant impact to the 'style' of a venue, but it's down to the teacher to ensure that they do.
    Do the teacher and the taxis usually have that level of interaction? I thought the taxi dancers were managed by the venue manager or something, but I could be wrong...

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh
    Part of the 'problem' with diferentiating venues and blaming the teacher for bad habits is that there seems to be a very large overlap of punters between venues (at least round here) which must be a bit of a moderating factor...
    Of course - it's difficult to tell where good or bad habits were picked up. Which is why, to me, the solution can't be local, it has to be national.

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    Re: Are teachers responsible for pupils' bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh
    I think you'r'e' confusing the population on the forum with the general dancing population.
    Nice to see someone honouring the original thread title with a refreshingly original approach to punctuation...

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